Capiltal Survey Instruments

[RoguePhoenix (OP)]

Okay so how to make sure everyone know's your a newbie....

I was putting together my first campaign with Starfire Assistant and when going through the tech in the game I realized I couldn't find Captial Survey Instruments anywhere in the material I had. Even the Unified Tech Manual was missing this. Can anyone tell me where to find all the information regarding this tech system... and take a shot on why the all mighty altar of tech manualdom is missing it (at least my version of it that is)?

[ZimRathbone]

Xc (Capital survey Instruments) was one of several tech rules introduced by 3DG (3rd Edition Design Group), the bunch who consolidated the Unified Tech Manual.

The next project after that was the Unified Rules Manual (URM) which was intended to amalgamate the various 3rd Edition rules sets into one place, and to fix a number of balance issues, or conflicts with the materials like In Death Ground.  

The problem here was that the Hun Class survey cruisers in IDG/ISW4 just dont make any kind of economic sense. Hence the development of the Xc to allow larger units to at least approach the the surveying/cost capabilities of the standard early game unarmed EX. .

The changed Hun came out something like this

Hun Class CA(S)   (AC)   (AM2)    XO:10   54 Hull Spaces   HT 12   PV: 48.0

[1] S1x9 Ac2x12 H (BbL) (IcIc) H (IcIc) (IcIc) Wa Qs Wa Xr Mg Qs Dxz     ?k ?3 Z2 Dxz Xc Qs (IcIc)  [4/ 4]

RCP:54  MCP:21   MSP:200  End: 50   Cloak   Trg: 1 Atk: +0 Bmp: +6 Tem: +0   Cost: 1890.7 / 283.61

45 HTK   S1x9  Ac2x12  Wax2  Dxzx2  Mgx1

Huns were still far from optimal, but at least they made a little more sense after the redesign. There was an ongoing debate about adding a second Xc (which would have improved the survey capabilities, while retaining the "undersized CA" of the blurb).

Steve, like a number of others on this list, was part of 3DG, and tended to put tech changes into SA once they had been agreed on by the group (or ocasionally before, beacuse he thought they were a good idea for his campaign eg Mine Racks)

Unfortunately many of these ideas were never formally published due to the demise of 3DG.

[RoguePhoenix (OP)]

Hmmm remember reading about that, didn't realize some things didn't make it in then. There isn't anywhere handy where the other systems that aren't in the UTM are located and explained is there?

[Steve Walmsley]

Okay so how to make sure everyone know's your a newbie....

I was putting together my first campaign with Starfire Assistant and when going through the tech in the game I realized I couldn't find Captial Survey Instruments anywhere in the material I had. Even the Unified Tech Manual was missing this. Can anyone tell me where to find all the information regarding this tech system... and take a shot on why the all mighty altar of tech manualdom is missing it (at least my version of it that is)?

Here is the rule section from the unpublished Unified Rules. As I invented Xc anyway and this was never published anywhere else, I can't see posting this here being a problem.

27.06.11 CAPITAL SURVEY INSTRUMENTS (Xc)
Although fulfilling the same basic function as the smaller Survey Instruments and Improved Survey Instruments, Capital Survey Instruments are specifically designed to take advantage of larger hull types. The bulk of the system comprises large external sensor arrays which are deployed during survey operations but folded into the hull during combat. Therefore, they have no effect on the operation of external ordnance racks.

Although Xc requires only four hull spaces to install, the mounting hull must be at least twenty hull spaces due to the size requirements of the external arrays, making the frigate the smallest hull which can use this system Unlike the smaller Survey Instruments, up to three Xc can be installed in a single hull, with the restriction that the hull must have at least twenty hull spaces for each system. (i.e. 2x Xc require a forty hull space ship and 3 Xc require a heavy cruiser hull of sixty hull spaces. Each installation of Capital Survey Instruments generates either five survey points toward warp point surveys or two survey points toward system body surveys, making it possible for a single ship to generate up to fifteen warp point survey points per impulse. Until the development of this system, the most economic way to carry out surveys was with fleets of small explorer size vessels. With the advent of Capital Survey Instruments, the option of armed cruiser size survey vessels is a viable economic alternative.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

Hmmm remember reading about that, didn't realize some things didn't make it in then. There isn't anywhere handy where the other systems that aren't in the UTM are located and explained is there?

Due to a falling out between Marvin and myself, the Unified Rules was never published, although perhaps 30 people have a copy as they were the members of the 3DG. If there is anything in SA which you can't find in the existing 3rdR rules, just ask on this forum and I will explain the associated rules.

Steve

[RoguePhoenix (OP)]

Due to a falling out between Marvin and myself, the Unified Rules was never published, although perhaps 30 people have a copy as they were the members of the 3DG. If there is anything in SA which you can't find in the existing 3rdR rules, just ask on this forum and I will explain the associated rules.

Steve

Yeah I read through the relevent portions ... more so just to not wander into a minefield without at least a tank beneath my feet. I guess I had figured that everything had made it into the 3rdR UTM, I should've figured that the late lamented 3rdR UR would have included a few midnight addditions.

I had kinda figured that the capital survey instruments were based off of ISW-4's Hun class considering your Rigellian equivilents being in a 5 squadron formation.

I found a few more that didn't make it into the UTM but I haven't gone through everything yet. Most of the rest of the items seemed self explainitory though I guess I should put up a list cause you never know what little rules your aren't supposed to use (and make it easier to have everything missed in one place instead of bothering you every few weeks with a new one). I'll have it up in a few days when I feel anal retentive enough to do a line by line comparison. Don't worry about responding fast though I won't be needing the higher tech items for at least ... a lil while heheheh.

So I guess with the 3rdR products no longer being offered everyone here is going to have to put together the tech from Exodus when it come out in January .... assuming the tech isn't too outlandish ;-P.

Thanks for all the help, it is very much appreciated. As soon as I get worked up on Starfire with SA I'll try to help out with Aurora. Besides I figure I owe ya for giving a chance to geek out (A mac laptop at one side to view all the rules and the forum, and the Win Xp on the other to run the game heheheh).

[coldsteel]

It should be in version 1.1 of the UTM.

[Kurt]

It should be in version 1.1 of the UTM.

I thought it was.  IIRC, version 1.1 of the UTM also has Steve's new survey rules that explain both the Xi and the Xc.  I'm at work so I can't check right now, but that is what I remember.

Kurt

[RoguePhoenix (OP)]

Hmmm... yep I got Version 1.0 dated June 29th 2002. sooooo .... any bets on my chances of aquiring the later version from Mr. Lamb.  

[Charlie Beeler]

Yes,  It's 1.1 only.  You should have recieved 1.1 from Marvin when it was released if you had directly purchasedUTM 1.0.  At least I did.  Granted I purchased my 1.0 5/03 and 1.1 was released 7/03.

[Erik L]

Let's try and keep this from devolving into a 3rdR/4th type row. We certainly get enough of that elsewhere, and that is pretty much the only thing that will make me lock a thread. Not saying we are there now, just saying, don't go there

[RoguePhoenix (OP)]

Don't worry I have no intentions of doing so. I actually find some of the traits of the 4th edition to be better and some of the 3rd to be better. It really depends on which type of game I want to play. Anywho seeing as I started this thread I'll take a big 2X4 to anyone that wants to start another flame war j/k. Anyways since I now know there was an updated version I sent Mr. Lamb an e-mail asking if I could get the new version, no fuss, no muss. Although I was curious on whether the people who had bought the 1.0 version paid for the 1.1 version when it is released. Just so I know what to expect in a responce.

[coldsteel]

Nope, no charge for 1.1

[RoguePhoenix (OP)]

Welp, it's been a week. Still no reply to my e-mail. Anybody have independent confirmation that Marvin's e-mail is marvlamb@comcast.net or if he might be on an extended vacation?

On a seperate subject. I noticed with Steve's Beagle class in the last couple of turns in the Rigellian campaign that he was using cutters to institute a planetary survey that would go over the hostile and asteroid environments. Now according to the rules small craft can only assist in surveying benign environments. I happen to think allowing them to assist in surveying them all is more appropriate. However I was interesting in learning if there was a particular reason why they were not supposed to be able to? I couldn't think of any and I was wondering if I had missed something.

[coldsteel]

UTM 1.1 changed the survey rules slightly to allow small craft to asist in non-hab and asteroid surveys.