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Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 10, 2018, 03:24:43 PM »

You would just bring a commercial ship with a maintenance module and re-arm the fighters anyway. Very cheap and while they re-arm slower it would not increase micro almost at all.

Or you just add a small 500t (or whatever size) internal hangar and the rest external and re-arm them that way with allot of micro-management.

We will get commercial hangars in C# and I think they are different enough to satisfy my preferences.
Posted by: Paul M
« on: October 10, 2018, 02:55:54 PM »

My point is simple:  with fighters it is purely a numbers game, more is always better; as more is likely to be "enough" fighters to overwhelm the enemy.  This is a fact, it is a mathematically quantifable aspect to combat...how many squadrons are required to destroy an enemy vessel of a certain class?   How many missiles are required to render the enemy defenses no longer a factor?  How many fighters are required to carry those missiles?   A book on modern naval tactics will cover most of the math involved.

Nothing you have ever said changes the fact this system simply allows for an up to 50% increase in strike capacity with no significant drawback.   Its blindingly obvious after a few seconds of thought that it will give any fighter using force an edge to use this technology.  The only question this system requires of the player is "how will I use it?" because after you decide to use fighters it is just too obviously an advantage to use it.

As my feeling on space fighters shades to "unprintable obscenities" I most certainly am not in favour of anything that adds more of them into the game system.

I also missed one post somewhere in the middle my apologies I would have just said the above.
Posted by: Adseria
« on: October 10, 2018, 12:46:20 PM »

Fighters as a weapon system in starfire and based on my experience aurora are a binary weapon system:  one has enough fighters to overwhelm the enemy or one does not.  It is a pure numbers game and the simple fact is that you can't have too many fighters, you can have not enough but not too many.   This suggested system allows for up to a 50% increase in strike group size which increases the chance that the fighter force has "enough" fighters rather than "not enough."

Leaving aside considerations such as speed calculations this is going to make it easier to overwhelm an enemy force, making fighters progressively more dangerous and as was pointed out more used.  Not being able to re-arm while externally docked is only relevant when the fighter in question requires re-arming.  So one could use a hybrid design and save valuable internal hanger space by docking your Space Superiority Fighters/Recon Birds/Tankers on the outside.

It is only micromanagement costs that show up as you can always find a way to re-arm the birds...either some internal hangers on the carrier or another carrier with internal hangers.   

I am dubious it becomes  a "no brainer" to use this...however, it certainly isn't going to be a system one thinks too much about before using it if you are playing a fighter using race.   There is no serious drawback to docking the fighters externally...even if it slows the carrier down or they are easier to destory or you need a creative solution to re-arming the strike.   The most important point is that you get more fighters on your ships.  More fighters is always good.

I don't see this as a needed system, and if it adds complications to the speed calculation I'm really not seeing it as a useful addition.  That is my opinion yes.   But I also don't see how you can add in a system that increases fighter capacity by 50% and "balance" it easily.   If the external hanger was just that an external hanger (outside armour) that was cheaper to build with increased rearming and repair times then as an alternate system...especially at say reduced R&D cost it may make some sense, I don't know other people can chime in on that.

...Someone clearly hasn't bothered to read the rest of the discussion first. Most of the above has already been answered.

BTW the above applies to Aurora, not real life. It's been my experience that, in general, relatively few people require evidence before forming an opinion :)

Can't say I disagree. As I think I myself have proved in this very thread. :)

I mean, that's not to say that I've changed my mind. I still think external docking ports would be a good addition to the game.

But then again, I'm only just starting my 2nd game (well, technically it's my 11th attempt, and my 3rd in the latest version. It's that kind of game), so I don't really know how it would work in practice. I had a suggestion, and threw it out to see if anyone would bite.

Clearly not. Maybe I should just go back to Stellaris? At least I have some vague idea of what I'm doing in that game :D
Posted by: Paul M
« on: October 10, 2018, 12:27:24 PM »

Fighters as a weapon system in starfire and based on my experience aurora are a binary weapon system:  one has enough fighters to overwhelm the enemy or one does not.  It is a pure numbers game and the simple fact is that you can't have too many fighters, you can have not enough but not too many.   This suggested system allows for up to a 50% increase in strike group size which increases the chance that the fighter force has "enough" fighters rather than "not enough."

Leaving aside considerations such as speed calculations this is going to make it easier to overwhelm an enemy force, making fighters progressively more dangerous and as was pointed out more used.  Not being able to re-arm while externally docked is only relevant when the fighter in question requires re-arming.  So one could use a hybrid design and save valuable internal hanger space by docking your Space Superiority Fighters/Recon Birds/Tankers on the outside.

It is only micromanagement costs that show up as you can always find a way to re-arm the birds...either some internal hangers on the carrier or another carrier with internal hangers.   

I am dubious it becomes  a "no brainer" to use this...however, it certainly isn't going to be a system one thinks too much about before using it if you are playing a fighter using race.   There is no serious drawback to docking the fighters externally...even if it slows the carrier down or they are easier to destory or you need a creative solution to re-arming the strike.   The most important point is that you get more fighters on your ships.  More fighters is always good.

I don't see this as a needed system, and if it adds complications to the speed calculation I'm really not seeing it as a useful addition.  That is my opinion yes.   But I also don't see how you can add in a system that increases fighter capacity by 50% and "balance" it easily.   If the external hanger was just that an external hanger (outside armour) that was cheaper to build with increased rearming and repair times then as an alternate system...especially at say reduced R&D cost it may make some sense, I don't know other people can chime in on that.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: October 10, 2018, 10:20:44 AM »

Sounds like opinion to me.

It is an opinion. :)

As I said in my post "I often seek competing opinions to my own just to make sure that my own view stands up to scrutiny". All I am saying is that you have a better chance to convince other forum members to support your idea if you provide some evidence or calculations to show why that idea will fit in well with the current mechanics, without breaking anything or taking away meaningful decisions.

See below for a recent thread that is a good example. As a result of the evidence produced by different people to support their arguments (opinions), I made some changes to the ground combat values.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10164.0

BTW the above applies to Aurora, not real life. It's been my experience that, in general, relatively few people require evidence before forming an opinion :)
Posted by: Adseria
« on: October 10, 2018, 07:41:19 AM »

I made a suggestion, and tried to answer people's questions about a component that I feel would fit well into the game as it stands at the moment. Now, you're saying it's a bad suggestion because it doesn't fit with your opinion of how the game should be played? Or did I misunderstand?

No, I think he is concerned that would not be balanced. When designing ships you should be faced with a series of choices that usually involve a trade-off between two or more competing factors. If that decision is obvious because one option is far better than the other, then it isn't a real choice, which is weak game design.

Well, I'm sorry, but I don't see how it would be unbalanced. Yes, you get more fighters, but they take longer to refuel, and can't reload box launchers.

Oh, one other thing:

All I can see that it would do is unbalance the game further in favour of fighters/small craft -- something I think the game already suffers from.

something I think the game already suffers from.

something I think

Sounds like opinion to me.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: October 09, 2018, 05:11:27 PM »

I made a suggestion, and tried to answer people's questions about a component that I feel would fit well into the game as it stands at the moment. Now, you're saying it's a bad suggestion because it doesn't fit with your opinion of how the game should be played? Or did I misunderstand?

No, I think he is concerned that would not be balanced. When designing ships you should be faced with a series of choices that usually involve a trade-off between two or more competing factors. If that decision is obvious because one option is far better than the other, then it isn't a real choice, which is weak game design.

When adding anything new to Aurora, it should provide one of these trade-off choices and not simply be a replacement for an existing option, unless there is evidence the existing option is unbalanced (i.e weak original design). Because of this, people on the forums are often looking for a reasoned argument as to why the new choice represents either a new trade-off or improved game design. This has led to many very lively but well-informed debates conducted with mutual respect for other people's opinions.

In fact, I often seek competing opinions to my own just to make sure that my own view stands up to scrutiny. This forum is invaluable for Aurora in that regard. This is also true in my day job where I would only hire someone if I firmly believed they would stand up to me when they disagreed.

So when someone disagrees with you on here, they are not attacking you personally. They are just not convinced by the evidence you produced to back up your idea.
Posted by: Adseria
« on: October 09, 2018, 04:32:12 PM »

Well then. . .  It sounds like you are asking for twice the Hangar Bay capacity in the same amount of hull space, at the cost of all the other stuff Hangar Bays do that isn't "hold ships."  I fail to see how that would make Aurora more fun.  All I can see that it would do is unbalance the game further in favour of fighters/small craft -- something I think the game already suffers from.

In short, I think it is a terrible suggestion and I am opposed to it.

I made a suggestion, and tried to answer people's questions about a component that I feel would fit well into the game as it stands at the moment. Now, you're saying it's a bad suggestion because it doesn't fit with your opinion of how the game should be played? Or did I misunderstand?
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: October 09, 2018, 04:26:21 PM »

Well then. . .  It sounds like you are asking for twice the Hangar Bay capacity in the same amount of hull space, at the cost of all the other stuff Hangar Bays do that isn't "hold ships."  I fail to see how that would make Aurora more fun.  All I can see that it would do is unbalance the game further in favour of fighters/small craft -- something I think the game already suffers from.

In short, I think it is a terrible suggestion and I am opposed to it.
Posted by: Adseria
« on: October 09, 2018, 03:34:26 PM »

It sounds like what you are asking for is a way-better-version of something that's already in the game.  To which I will automatically vote "No," unless and until you can demonstrate to me that what we already have is significantly under-powered.

So. . . how would your 'Docking Ports' make the game more fun?

Quote
Unless you meant full-size ships? If so, then yes, this would work just as well, but my idea has the added bonus that, after their first strike, they can rearm in a smaller regular carrier. Again, it's not a late-game tech. If you don't have big carriers, then a fleet of large ships with box launchers would have to go back to a colony with maintenance facilities to rearm. Even a hangar with a capacity of, say, 6kt, needs a carrier of maybe 30kt, right? And you'd need a few 6kt ships to match a squadron of 30-40 fighters, and the fighters could take turns rearming in a 1kt hangar just as easily as frigates in a 6kt one. It just gives you that little bit more flexibility that you can't get from small ships with tons of box launchers.

Not sure if I am missing something with this, but it seems to suffer hugely compared to current design methods.If I understand it correctly, then you have a smallish carrier with external docking ports than can carry a fairly larger group of parasite craft with box launhers. After a first strike these craft return to a ship with standard internal hangers to refule and rearm for a second run.

If we were to make a guess that these external docking ports can hold say 50% more vessel tonnage than standard internal ones, then you now need a normal carrier of at least 50% or more larger total size. Or go with a smaller standard carrier than rearms etc in two or more batches. Either way you now have a totally redundant initial carrier in the battlespace, this means a shipyard and materials that could of gone into a standard form carrier to do both jobs itself.

The only way I could see this being of practical use in the current format would be if it was able to do things hangers an already do, thus making the concept now vastly OP compared to standard hangers. At this point you have to then wonder should it be perhaps an advanced tech thing to give it some balance, in which case why not just have a new advanced internal hanger that has a greater than standard capacity?

I'm pretty sure I already answered both of these questions. I see no reason to repeat everything.
Posted by: Rich.h
« on: October 09, 2018, 02:38:35 PM »

Quote
Unless you meant full-size ships? If so, then yes, this would work just as well, but my idea has the added bonus that, after their first strike, they can rearm in a smaller regular carrier. Again, it's not a late-game tech. If you don't have big carriers, then a fleet of large ships with box launchers would have to go back to a colony with maintenance facilities to rearm. Even a hangar with a capacity of, say, 6kt, needs a carrier of maybe 30kt, right? And you'd need a few 6kt ships to match a squadron of 30-40 fighters, and the fighters could take turns rearming in a 1kt hangar just as easily as frigates in a 6kt one. It just gives you that little bit more flexibility that you can't get from small ships with tons of box launchers.

Not sure if I am missing something with this, but it seems to suffer hugely compared to current design methods.If I understand it correctly, then you have a smallish carrier with external docking ports than can carry a fairly larger group of parasite craft with box launhers. After a first strike these craft return to a ship with standard internal hangers to refule and rearm for a second run.

If we were to make a guess that these external docking ports can hold say 50% more vessel tonnage than standard internal ones, then you now need a normal carrier of at least 50% or more larger total size. Or go with a smaller standard carrier than rearms etc in two or more batches. Either way you now have a totally redundant initial carrier in the battlespace, this means a shipyard and materials that could of gone into a standard form carrier to do both jobs itself.

The only way I could see this being of practical use in the current format would be if it was able to do things hangers an already do, thus making the concept now vastly OP compared to standard hangers. At this point you have to then wonder should it be perhaps an advanced tech thing to give it some balance, in which case why not just have a new advanced internal hanger that has a greater than standard capacity?
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: October 09, 2018, 12:31:31 PM »

It sounds like what you are asking for is a way-better-version of something that's already in the game.  To which I will automatically vote "No," unless and until you can demonstrate to me that what we already have is significantly under-powered.

So. . . how would your 'Docking Ports' make the game more fun?
Posted by: Adseria
« on: October 09, 2018, 07:07:53 AM »

There is also the issue that this would require a rewite of how damage occurs on motherships, obviously is craft are docked outside then they cannot be protected by ship armour. It means a lot of code for something that already has it's role generally fulfilled by existing components.

This is true. Obviously, I wasn't expecting it to be added overnight. It was a suggestion, not a demand.

The first strike idea is a nice one, but why not just have a couple of ships that are essentially a bucket load of box launchers with a couple of engines in place, then simply have them followed by a tanker to ensure fuel to reach a destination.

You know, I'm quite impressed that you managed to take pretty much the exact idea I already described and make it sound brand new.

Unless you meant full-size ships? If so, then yes, this would work just as well, but my idea has the added bonus that, after their first strike, they can rearm in a smaller regular carrier. Again, it's not a late-game tech. If you don't have big carriers, then a fleet of large ships with box launchers would have to go back to a colony with maintenance facilities to rearm. Even a hangar with a capacity of, say, 6kt, needs a carrier of maybe 30kt, right? And you'd need a few 6kt ships to match a squadron of 30-40 fighters, and the fighters could take turns rearming in a 1kt hangar just as easily as frigates in a 6kt one. It just gives you that little bit more flexibility that you can't get from small ships with tons of box launchers.

And sure, if you're fighting in a system where you already have a colony with maintenance facilities to rearm, then using larger warships would probably be the better option. But I'm willing to bet that combat away from your colonies (or near ones without maintenance facilities) is just as common as combat near them (if not more so).

The other issue then brings the speed limitations in play, if you have a giant first strike carrier using external ports, this vessel is limited in speed by the material stress on the ports. This means either it cannot keep up with a suitably balanced fleet, or it cannot make a run for it if things go badly. Or worse you have to make decisions such as "let's just cut and run and leave all the parasite craft to their doom.

This latter part is true, but I was imagining that the speed limit would be imposed on the class design screen. The only limit on what would happen to the ships while the carrier was in motion would be limited to the size, not how fast the carrier could go. If she could do 5k km/s unloaded, she could do 5k km/s with a full air group on board. And don't forget, the idea is a "hangar" component with less mass. Yes, you can stick lots of them on one ship and have a carrier the same size as one with regular hangars, but with much more fighter capacity. Or, you could sacrifice that capacity to have a carrier much smaller (and therefore faster) than existing carriers. Does that not fit in with Aurora's style of letting you design the fleet to fit your playstyle?

There's another thing; We've been focusing on the idea of box launchers. It would be possible to give a docking-port carrier a bunch of beam-armed fighters, to help defend the fleet. And, because they don't need rearming, it wouldn't be necessary to operate it alongside a regular carrier, or send it to rearm at a colony after each battle. You could even use it to operate a handful of fighters from other ships (what would, in modern-day parlance, be called "surface ships;" the destroyers and cruisers and such).

I know what you're thinking:

Quote
This is OP. It would mean that you can have a lot more beam fighters in the same amount of space, and there would be no penalties compared to regular hangars.

Yes, it would. And no, there wouldn't. So, let's go back to what we were saying earlier.

There is also the issue that this would require a rewite of how damage occurs on motherships, obviously is craft are docked outside then they cannot be protected by ship armour. It means a lot of code for something that already has it's role generally fulfilled by existing components.

Quote
This is true. Obviously, I wasn't expecting it to be added overnight. It was a suggestion, not a demand.

It's not going to happen any time soon. So, if it does happen, it will probably be for C# Aurora. And in C# Aurora, refuelling is being changed; now only ships with special components will be able to refuel other ships. I'm assuming that a hangar bay would allow refuelling. Let's say that a docking port also allows refuelling, but at a reduced rate. Or even prevents it altogether. Now, there's a limit on how often beam fighters can sortie from a docking port carrier.

Quote
But why not just take along a full-size tanker and refuel fighters from that?

Prevent fighters from refuelling from tankers with refuelling components. Maybe add a fighter-only refuelling component, to maintain fighter/tanker capability. Now, they can only refuel from full-size ships with either docking ports or hangars.

I think I've covered everything, but then, I thought that the last four times, too. Maybe I'm just bad at explaining things! :D
Posted by: Rich.h
« on: October 08, 2018, 11:16:56 AM »

There is also the issue that this would require a rewite of how damage occurs on motherships, obviously is craft are docked outside then they cannot be protected by ship armour. It means a lot of code for something that already has it's role generally fulfilled by existing components.

The first strike idea is a nice one, but why not just have a couple of ships that are essentially a bucket load of box launchers with a couple of engines in place, then simply have them followed by a tanker to ensure fuel to reach a destination.

The other issue then brings the speed limitations in play, if you have a giant first strike carrier using external ports, this vessel is limited in speed by the material stress on the ports. This means either it cannot keep up with a suitably balanced fleet, or it cannot make a run for it if things go badly. Or worse you have to make decisions such as "let's just cut and run and leave all the parasite craft to their doom.
Posted by: Adseria
« on: October 08, 2018, 06:54:08 AM »

...

You want to Steve to create a part that provides better results than a tractor beam for barely a tenth of the weight and cost? Or even less?

I'm not seeing that happening. Why use a tractor beam based tug in the first place if that's possible? Especially since tugs can't pull more than 1 object at a time, but would if I read it correctly be stackable without limit.
[/quote]

It would still have a size limit (after all, a big parasite would break away from a docking port if the mothership tried to move while they were docked), but it would be a much bigger limit (since it doesn't have to fit in the physical confines of the hangar bay itself).

By this, I meant that it would be a much bigger limit per ton of "hangar space." The actual limit would be maybe 250-500t (similar to the boat bay), but since the size of the docking port is only 50-100t, it's much more space efficient than the existing hangars. In return, you lose the ability to rearm box launchers. Obviously, it would be useful for ships that don't need to rearm fighters, but do need to carry them (like survey command ships), but it would also be useful for military carriers in the early/mid game, as I was saying earlier.