Brawler Duo

[smoelf (OP)]

As a follow-up to my last post about carriers, I thought I'd post the primary combatants that they are carrying. These are already generation 2.5. First generation got too old before any combat started and second generation got wiped out by 70.000 km/s anti-missile missiles. So I had to rework them to see if I could squeeze some more PD out of them. This is the result. I plan to field these in a 1:5 ratio with the escort having the larger quantity.

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Prowler II-B class Attack Craft      2,000 tons       68 Crew       394.2 BP       TCS 40    TH 297    EM 0
7428 km/s      Armour 6-14       Shields 0-0       HTK 9      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 7
Maint Life 2.07 Years     MSP 360    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 112    5YR 1,678    Max Repair 148.5 MSP
Hunter    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP297.00 (1)    Power 297    Fuel Use 156.40%    Signature 297    Explosion 16%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 1.73 billion km (64 hours at full power)

Particle Beam-4 (1)    Range 240,000km     TS: 7,428 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS6000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R4-PB20 (1)     Total Power Output 4    Exp 10%

Active Search Sensor AS5-R1 (1)     GPS 13     Range 5.7m km    MCR 513.8k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a c for auto-assignment purposes

Code: [Select]

Condor II-B class FAC Escort      821 tons       35 Crew       159 BP       TCS 16    TH 126    EM 0
7665 km/s      Armour 1-7       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 4.43 Years     MSP 212    AFR 54%    IFR 0.7%    1YR 17    5YR 262    Max Repair 62.9 MSP
Trailer    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP125.80 (1)    Power 125.8    Fuel Use 262.82%    Signature 125.8    Explosion 17%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 2.5 billion km (3 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,665 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS8000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS5-R1 (1)     GPS 13     Range 5.7m km    MCR 513.8k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a d for auto-assignment purposes
For the curious, I also have the second generation here, if you want to see the improvements.

Off-Topic: show

Prowler II class Attack Craft      2,000 tons       80 Crew       327 BP       TCS 40    TH 300    EM 0
7502 km/s      Armour 2-14       Shields 0-0       HTK 11      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 7
Maint Life 1.76 Years     MSP 265    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 105    5YR 1,577    Max Repair 150 MSP
Hunter    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP300.00 (1)    Power 300    Fuel Use 116.91%    Signature 300    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 2.3 billion km (3 days at full power)

Particle Beam-4 (1)    Range 200,000km     TS: 7,502 km/s     Power 10-3    ROF 20       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS6000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (1)     GPS 12     Range 4.8m km    MCR 430.9k km    Resolution 1

ECM 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a c for auto-assignment purposes

Condor II class FAC Escort      1,000 tons       39 Crew       165.6 BP       TCS 20    TH 150    EM 0
7507 km/s      Armour 1-8       Shields 0-0       HTK 6      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 3.20 Years     MSP 210    AFR 80%    IFR 1.1%    1YR 31    5YR 463    Max Repair 75 MSP
Trailer    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP150.00 (1)    Power 150    Fuel Use 165.34%    Signature 150    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 33,000 Litres    Range 3.6 billion km (5 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,507 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS7800 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7,800 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (1)     GPS 12     Range 4.8m km    MCR 430.9k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a d for auto-assignment purposes

[Blogaugis]

If it is a follow-up post, why create a new thread? Couldn't You just continue there?
But, whatever, fine, do it Your way...

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Prowler II-B class Attack Craft      2,000 tons       68 Crew       394.2 BP       TCS 40    TH 297    EM 0
7428 km/s      Armour 6-14       Shields 0-0       HTK 9      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 7
Maint Life 2.07 Years     MSP 360    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 112    5YR 1,678    Max Repair 148.5 MSP
Hunter    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP297.00 (1)    Power 297    Fuel Use 156.40%    Signature 297    Explosion 16%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 1.73 billion km (64 hours at full power)

Particle Beam-4 (1)    Range 240,000km     TS: 7,428 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS6000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R4-PB20 (1)     Total Power Output 4    Exp 10%

Active Search Sensor AS5-R1 (1)     GPS 13     Range 5.7m km    MCR 513.8k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a c for auto-assignment purposes

So, it is a sniper-like ship.
Tracking speed of the fire control seems a bit lacking. I think you might want to drop the armor to 5 or 4, and raise the tracking speed.

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Condor II-B class FAC Escort      821 tons       35 Crew       159 BP       TCS 16    TH 126    EM 0
7665 km/s      Armour 1-7       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 4.43 Years     MSP 212    AFR 54%    IFR 0.7%    1YR 17    5YR 262    Max Repair 62.9 MSP
Trailer    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP125.80 (1)    Power 125.8    Fuel Use 262.82%    Signature 125.8    Explosion 17%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 2.5 billion km (3 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,665 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS8000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS5-R1 (1)     GPS 13     Range 5.7m km    MCR 513.8k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a d for auto-assignment purposes

821 Tons is an odd number when you keep in mind that this thing is carried by a carrier...
750 Tons or less would be... more pleasant in terms of hangar space usage and a number more pleasing to the eye.
Max Range of fire control is... vast (256,000 km), while the weapon can only fire at 10,000 km. Are You sure You're not overcompensating for something? I mean, sure - the longer the range of FC, the higher potential lock-on bonus, since you're going to keep the enemy in sights. But personally, I'd drop it to like... 30,000 km.
Armor is also on the weak side - 1 layer... If you plan these fighters to be single-use (almost suicide-kamikaze attacks), you might want to make them as cheap as possible and with as little crew as possible as well.
On my post I managed to get 2 layers of armor on my ~250 ton fighters...

Off-Topic: show

Prowler II class Attack Craft      2,000 tons       80 Crew       327 BP       TCS 40    TH 300    EM 0
7502 km/s      Armour 2-14       Shields 0-0       HTK 11      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 7
Maint Life 1.76 Years     MSP 265    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 105    5YR 1,577    Max Repair 150 MSP
Hunter    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP300.00 (1)    Power 300    Fuel Use 116.91%    Signature 300    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 2.3 billion km (3 days at full power)

Particle Beam-4 (1)    Range 200,000km     TS: 7,502 km/s     Power 10-3    ROF 20       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS6000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (1)     GPS 12     Range 4.8m km    MCR 430.9k km    Resolution 1

ECM 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a c for auto-assignment purposes

Condor II class FAC Escort      1,000 tons       39 Crew       165.6 BP       TCS 20    TH 150    EM 0
7507 km/s      Armour 1-8       Shields 0-0       HTK 6      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 3.20 Years     MSP 210    AFR 80%    IFR 1.1%    1YR 31    5YR 463    Max Repair 75 MSP
Trailer    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP150.00 (1)    Power 150    Fuel Use 165.34%    Signature 150    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 33,000 Litres    Range 3.6 billion km (5 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,507 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS7800 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7,800 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (1)     GPS 12     Range 4.8m km    MCR 430.9k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a d for auto-assignment purposes

I'd consider adding the same fire control to both ships as the one on Condor II. This would also fix Your lack of tracking speed on a newer design as well...
Also, if You're adding a 6,000 km/s tracking speed - you can reduce the size of the engine to make it go at 6000 km/s speed as well. The armor present on that ship should compensate for the speed loss.

[smoelf (OP)]

If it is a follow-up post, why create a new thread? Couldn't You just continue there?
But, whatever, fine, do it Your way...

The other thread was intended as more of a discussion of some general principles of carrier design while this is feedback on specific designs. I felt that was different enought to warrant a different thread in order to get relevant responses.

So, it is a sniper-like ship.
Tracking speed of the fire control seems a bit lacking. I think you might want to drop the armor to 5 or 4, and raise the tracking speed.

You're probably right. I know the ships I'm up against fly at about 5.500 km/s, so the tracking speed is good enough for those purposes, but I might as well take advantage of the entire ship speed if possible.

821 Tons is an odd number when you keep in mind that this thing is carried by a carrier...
750 Tons or less would be... more pleasant in terms of hangar space usage and a number more pleasing to the eye.
Max Range of fire control is... vast (256,000 km), while the weapon can only fire at 10,000 km. Are You sure You're not overcompensating for something? I mean, sure - the longer the range of FC, the higher potential lock-on bonus, since you're going to keep the enemy in sights. But personally, I'd drop it to like... 30,000 km.
Armor is also on the weak side - 1 layer... If you plan these fighters to be single-use (almost suicide-kamikaze attacks), you might want to make them as cheap as possible and with as little crew as possible as well.
On my post I managed to get 2 layers of armor on my ~250 ton fighters...

The accuracy is directly affected by the range of the fire control even at point blank range, so with the range you are suggesting, I would have an accuracy of about 60% instead of 96%. But there is a sense of diminishing returns where I might not need max range fire control. Something like this at 92% accuracy would squeeze out a few more escorts.

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Condor II-C class FAC Escort (P)      697 tons       29 Crew       121.4 BP       TCS 14    TH 107    EM 0
7688 km/s      Armour 1-6       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 4.30 Years     MSP 110    AFR 39%    IFR 0.5%    1YR 10    5YR 143    Max Repair 53.55 MSP
Trailer    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP107.10 (1)    Power 107.1    Fuel Use 284.84%    Signature 107.10    Explosion 17%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 2.7 billion km (4 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,688 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R128-TS8000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS5-R1 (1)     GPS 13     Range 5.7m km    MCR 513.8k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a d for auto-assignment purposes

I'm not overly concerned with the escort's armor level. The AI will shoot at the larger ships first, so before they start hitting the Condors, all my Prowlers will be gone and I'm already retreating.

[nuclearslurpee]

You're probably right. I know the ships I'm up against fly at about 5.500 km/s, so the tracking speed is good enough for those purposes, but I might as well take advantage of the entire ship speed if possible.

I actually agree with this logic. No need to over-design a fire control for the intended mission. The main thing you lose by not designing up to the ship speed is future-proofing, but that can be handled with a refit later, using better technology so you can stay under 2,000 tons.

821 Tons is an odd number when you keep in mind that this thing is carried by a carrier...

Seconded, it's very weird. 800 would make more sense, or 750. You can probably bring the tonnage down by reducing the BFC range.

The accuracy is directly affected by the range of the fire control even at point blank range, so with the range you are suggesting, I would have an accuracy of about 60% instead of 96%. But there is a sense of diminishing returns where I might not need max range fire control. Something like this at 92% accuracy would squeeze out a few more escorts.

Diminishing returns is the name of the game. You have to consider opportunity cost, for example a max range BFC is twice the size as a 2x range BFC, what else could you do with that tonnage? In many cases it would mean another weapon or two, which often is a better investment. In this case as seen in the Condor II-C design it means shaving a lot of tonnage which means you can deploy more FACs from your carrier, more weapons in the field and therefore more combat ability. For the loss of 4% accuracy that is often going to be made up for by a Tactical-skill commander I think it is a good trade.

I'm not overly concerned with the escort's armor level. The AI will shoot at the larger ships first, so before they start hitting the Condors, all my Prowlers will be gone and I'm already retreating.

I wouldn't make this assumption about the AI, they will shoot whichever target they think is the best priority which can mean many things. My experience has generally been that the NPRs will target smaller ships if they think they are a threat and can be destroyed more easily than the larger ships for example.

[smoelf (OP)]

I wouldn't make this assumption about the AI, they will shoot whichever target they think is the best priority which can mean many things. My experience has generally been that the NPRs will target smaller ships if they think they are a threat and can be destroyed more easily than the larger ships for example.

Interesting. Maybe it was only in VB6? Or perhaps I've just imagined it. In any case, that was how the enemy behaved when I sent the first generation of Prowlers and Condors to die at the hands of enemy missiles - maybe just a case of confirmation bias.

[Blogaugis]

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Condor II-C class FAC Escort (P)      697 tons       29 Crew       121.4 BP       TCS 14    TH 107    EM 0
7688 km/s      Armour 1-6       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 4.30 Years     MSP 110    AFR 39%    IFR 0.5%    1YR 10    5YR 143    Max Repair 53.55 MSP
Trailer    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP107.10 (1)    Power 107.1    Fuel Use 284.84%    Signature 107.10    Explosion 17%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres    Range 2.7 billion km (4 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,688 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R128-TS8000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS5-R1 (1)     GPS 13     Range 5.7m km    MCR 513.8k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a d for auto-assignment purposes

I'm not overly concerned with the escort's armor level. The AI will shoot at the larger ships first, so before they start hitting the Condors, all my Prowlers will be gone and I'm already retreating.

Design is a bit better, as in - more carrier friendly and less wasteful in terms of fire control range, but still...
I think 128,000 km range is still too much, unless you plan to include or replace railguns with longer-ranged weapon variants.
The thing about armor - is this FAC supposed to be a single-use, as cheap as possible cannon fodder to be tossed at the enemy? Or You have a more quality approach in mind?
Since if it is cannon fodder - the components are too expensive, and the whole craft is too big. Not cheap enough basically. MSP requirement is too high also.
If it is quality - I have concerns over it's survivability: the lack of armor means this thing is likely to be destroyed, which means - again, uneconomical. You want to have some insurance over such precious pieces of hardware...

So, Your ship is uneconomical in either of the two (Quantity versus Quality) ideals.

[nuclearslurpee]

I admittedly have to agree with the assessment if not all of the specifics. It seems to me that while it's not bad per se, it's hard to see what the Condor II actually offers that a 500-ton railgun fighter doesn't in practical terms. A 500-ton fighter would have the big advantage that it can be built from planetary facilities, and would be nearly as capable. Reduce the BFC to only 1x range and it should still be perfectly adequate for the role, reduce engine size and perhaps increase the boost if you have the tech, and cut the fuel range to match the Prowler class. You can also save tonnage by cutting unnecessary engineering/MSP and sensor size.

For example:

Off-Topic: show

Condor III-A class Interceptor      500 tons       21 Crew       76.7 BP       TCS 10    TH 74    EM 0
7356 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 3      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 1.99 Years     MSP 9    AFR 20%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 3    5YR 45    Max Repair 36.75 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP73.50 (1)    Power 73.5    Fuel Use 375.08%    Signature 73.50    Explosion 17%
Fuel Capacity 20,000 Litres    Range 1.9 billion km (3 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,356 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R64-TS8000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS2-R1 (1)     GPS 2     Range 2m km    MCR 181.7k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a e for auto-assignment purposes

will get you pretty much the same performance on a 500-ton hull which is logistically desirable and about as compact as you could make it at your tech levels. The speed is just slightly less than the Prowler but you can make that up once you research 2.0x boost tech, otherwise it is good enough for the job and you can deploy ~30% more of them compared to the 700-ton design.

[smoelf (OP)]

Thanks for the suggestions, both of you. I must admit I never really considered just how marginal the gains in point-blank accuracy when increasing the range of the fire control.  I just assumed more accuracy = better. Here is the revised version with a couple of redesigned components to safe space. It's tight, but it seems to work.

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Condor II-D class Fighter (P)      500 tons       22 Crew       83.2 BP       TCS 10    TH 76    EM 0
7614 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 3      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 2.16 Years     MSP 10    AFR 20%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 3    5YR 43    Max Repair 38 MSP
Trailer    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Improved Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP76.00 (1)    Power 76    Fuel Use 472.07%    Signature 76    Explosion 19%
Fuel Capacity 20,000 Litres    Range 1.53 billion km (55 hours at full power)

10cm Railgun V10/C3 (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 7,614 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R64-TS7600 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 7,600 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
Improved Pebble Bed Reactor R3-PB20 (1)     Total Power Output 3.1    Exp 10%

Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (1)     GPS 9     Range 4.6m km    MCR 416.2k km    Resolution 1

I would be hesitant to go lower on the active sensor. With missiles at 70.000 km/s there is a risk of them hitting the target without allowing for PD if they can cover the entire distance within a 5-second interval, so I would want MCR to be at least 350.000 km.
Good points about MSP also. I think when I designed it, I couldn't remember, if railguns also had a 0.1% chance to fail - like beam weapons, and I just ended up putting MSP on as a safety measure instead of actually looking it up 

Well, time to build some fighter factories.

[nuclearslurpee]

Well, time to build some fighter factories.

Ahh, fighter factories... I always feel like I have enough, until I need to build fighters.