Author Topic: Home of Light Defence Fleet  (Read 8156 times)

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Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 06:33:45 AM »
edit
I just realized that missile of that size would be seen at max range for PD sensors.  Although probably not a problem against NPRs it would allow anti-ship missiles to be used against the large missiles and make the armor pointless.
Not really as anti-ship (as) rarely have decent chances to hit something as fast as a missile.  While they will probably destroy your missile if they hit, it will take a lot of them to hit in the first place.  It might even be worth it if they run out of offensive missiles shooting at your missiles, while still having some of your missiles left.

Brian
 

Offline dooots

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 09:45:08 PM »
Yeah it will probably never be a problem against NPRs.  At least I don't see Steve going through the effort to make them smart enough to not waste AS missiles on large missiles with no warhead.  But if you are playing against yourself it would be possible to use AS missiles to buy enough time to make specialized AMMs to counter the large armored missiles.
 

Offline jseah (OP)

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2011, 12:23:51 AM »
Come to think of it, that *might* work. 

Super huge drone in box launchers.  Tons of armour.  It's essentially an armoured engine. 

Shoot it at a waypoint and let the enemy waste their AMMs on it. 

eg. 'Illusion' Size 20 Drone
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 20 MSP  (1 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 14     Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 5000 km/s    Endurance: 600 minutes   Range: 180.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 5.0417
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 25%   3k km/s 5%   5k km/s 5%   10k km/s 2.5%
Materials Required:    3.5x Tritanium   1.4167x Gallicite   Fuel x2500

Development Cost for Project: 504RP

Given 100% hit rate for AMMs, it's average 14 AMMs per drone. 
AMMs cost something around 2 per missile.  Cost wise, you win, by almost 5 times. 
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2011, 12:32:06 AM »
Isn't normal AMM behaviour to fire a number (1-4) AMMs per incoming missile, starting with the closest? Then, if a missile is hit by those 1-4 missiles and not destroyed, you launch another wave against it? So your drone won't actually attract any more AMMs at a time than a normal missile, although it will probably attract more in total because it's unlikely to be destroyed by each wave. At that point it seems more effective to use heavily armoured normal missiles - say size 12, armour 3/warhead 3/engines 5/fuel 1. Lower damage and range than normal but not actually decoys. At least that way if some of them get through they will do something!

What might work, however, if you wanted to mess with the AI, is a decoy fighter or FAC, nothing but engine and armour. As small as you can make it while still keeping 10+ armour. Should be ~5-600t.  Get it in close and the AI will start firing AMMs at it. Then hope it soaks more AMMs than it costs! Might be a good idea to give it a conscript crew and no commander. If it arrives just ahead of a missile wave of yours it might even tie up launchers enough to let your missiles through.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 12:34:30 AM by Narmio »
 

Offline jseah (OP)

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2011, 01:42:36 AM »
The drone is also continually approaching, and it comes in waves containing one drone each. 

The idea is that the drone will serve to lock up AMM firecontrols for an unreasonably long time, and in large numbers suck up a load of AMMs not spent killing the warhead missiles. 

Size 20 box launcher is 150 tons.  Size 5 launcher is 250 tons. 
1 Size 5 missile takes 4 AMMs to kill going by my AMM hit rates. 

Each drone launcher ends up locking up a fire control for an average of 14 missiles.  Given 3 missiles per AMM wave, each drone present means 3.5 more size 5 AS missiles is getting through. 

Assuming combat runs until enemy is out of AMMs, each drone launcher means I save 3.5 size 5 missiles from AMM fire. 
A launching system is 1 Size 5 launcher at 250 tons, 2 magazines at 100 tons, giving me 7 salvoes.  For a total of 350 tons. 
This is just over the 2 drones needed to break even.  Therefore the drones are better worth the tonnage provided combat lasts long enough to run the enemy out of AMMs. 

A 6 kiloton frigate can pack 20 drone launchers.  That's 280 AMMs soaked vs the 212 from a normal missile ship. 
And the 20 drones cost me basically nothing.  Each drone costs slightly more than 1 size 5 missile. 
 

Offline jseah (OP)

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2011, 04:09:33 AM »
Another question. 

How big a fleet should I aim for?  I've been building ships non-stop for a while and currently I have:

7x Wyrm Class escort frigates (going to retrofit to WyrmB and aim for 10 of them at least)
13x Chimera Class frigates
6x Ettin Class destroyers
20x Hydra Head Class corvette

The total missile output of the fleet is 194 per 50 seconds with 7 salvoes and a bit. 
Single shot alpha strike from the Hydra Heads is 160. 
AMMs are at 105 per 10 seconds with 16 salvoes exactly. 

At the rate of warp point discovery vs ship production, I'll be fielding roughly three times that before the next system gets explored and *maybe* I meet enemies.  The Wyrm production might halt for a bit as I refit the Wyrms to WyrmBs. 

Code: [Select]
WyrmB class Escort Frigate    6,000 tons     540 Crew     1225.44 BP      TCS 120  TH 690  EM 0
5750 km/s     Armour 3-29     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 15     PPV 10
Annual Failure Rate: 57%    IFR: 0.8%    Maint Capacity 638 MSP    Max Repair 176 MSP    Est Time: 3.07 Years
Magazine 430   

Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E7.8 (6)    Power 115    Fuel Use 78%    Signature 115    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 175,000 Litres    Range 67.3 billion km   (135 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC58-R1 (2)     Range 58.1m km    Resolution 1
'Briar' Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (430)  Speed: 54,300 km/s   End: 1.9m    Range: 6.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 506 / 304 / 152

Active Search Sensor MR6-R1 (1)     GPS 56     Range 6.2m km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2011, 05:09:34 PM »
Given 100% hit rate for AMMs, it's average 14 AMMs per drone.

Actually, it's an average of 8 AMM per drone, since once the drone is destroyed there's no reason to continue firing at it.  About the best you can expect is 10 AMM per drone, if the enemy is using 5v1 targetting.


How big a fleet should I aim for?

Whatever you want, really.  One alien ship with the anti-missile defenses to stand up to your fleet and more speed than you can kill a pretty much unlimited number of ships.  So 90% of the time your fleet is going to be too big or too small for the fight anyway.
 

Offline jseah (OP)

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2011, 09:46:06 PM »
Actually, it's an average of 8 AMM per drone, since once the drone is destroyed there's no reason to continue firing at it.  About the best you can expect is 10 AMM per drone, if the enemy is using 5v1 targetting.
How do you calculate this?

With 14 points of armour, a 1point hit has 1/14 chance of destroying my missile, right?  Or am I misunderstanding something here?
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 10:05:51 PM »
How do you calculate this?

With 14 points of armour, a 1point hit has 1/14 chance of destroying my missile, right?  Or am I misunderstanding something here?
This is a binomial probability distribution question.  Each new 1-damage hit has a 1/14 chance to destroy the missile, but those chances are all independent of earlier chances.  So figuring out what the actual chances are that within 8 hits one of those will be successful requires that annoying formula from high school that nobody remembers.  Luckily, we have the internet:  http://stattrek.com/Tables/Binomial.aspx , for example, lets you enter a chance for an individual hit (0.0714), the number of shots (8) and the number you need to reach (1).  Then you look at the P(X>=1) column and see that the actual chance of eight shots producing at least one hit is about 45%.

</maths>
 

Offline jseah (OP)

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 11:31:36 PM »
Ah, right.  Forgot about that. 
Hmm, that does make it kinda harsh on the drones then.  Perhaps I'll not do that. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One more thing about my command ship. 
I was told that the command ship would be a big target due to it's huge sensor signature when the sensors are on. 
And I do know that you need an active sensor contact for a ship to be targeted by anything, even if there's a really strong EM contact associated with my command ship. 

Therefore, as a strange method of protecting the ship, I have been considering mounting a cloaking device on my command ship. 
According to the description of the cloaking tech line, the sensor reduction is the *range* reduction of active sensors needed to detect my ship.  Furthermore, I can quite easily achieve efficiency 5 with about half a year's research, the end result being my command ship is only visible to actives at 15% the normal range.  15%!  Even my giant size 30 sensor on my command ship will need to close to 60 million km to even see itself, which is the range of my AS missile in the first place!
Of course, I would have to dedicate 1/5 of my ship to the cloak device but the command ship's size is something that can be easily changed since I have only one of them in service at the moment and plan to build at most one more in the forseeable future. 
 - My calculations place the proposed cloaked design at 14ktons, preserving engine ratios.  This would necessitate building a bigger jumpship or simply rushing out jump efficiency 8.  Luckily, jumpship size is also something I can afford to change easily. 

Considering the various suggestions here involve giving all the ships their own active sensors, I very much doubt ships have the excessive range sensor required to see a cloaked ship at reasonable AS missile ranges. 
This would, hopefully, shift the missile fire away from my command ship to the more visible combat ships that are, comparatively, more expendable. 

And if the enemy decides to try to close, I can always try to keep my distance giving me time to exchange fire first. 

EDIT:
The cloaking research is something I would be doing anyway, since my passive sensor scout will be a stealthy, defenceless jumpship with big passive sensors. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 11:33:43 PM by jseah »
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2011, 12:46:49 AM »
How do you calculate this?

Sloppily, by using the rule of thumb that one success at a 1-in-X chance requires 1/2 X tries (for values of X <20).

Oh, and fourteen points of armour results in a one in fifteen chance of destruction (0.0666666666...)


Keep in mind that cloaking tech won't make your massive sensor any harder to spot (on EM passives), and that NPRs generally follow a strategy of either 'attack the biggest ships' (as by definitions the jumpship has to be at least tied for the biggest ship in the fleet) or 'attack the strongest sensor' (since blinding a fleet is almost as good as - and frequently a precursor to - a kill).
 

Offline jseah (OP)

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2011, 12:54:36 AM »
Correct, I do not expect the cloak to hide my command ship. 

I DO expect it to make anyone who wants to shoot at it have to close the range.  Doing so against my retreating ships should give me time to do some shooting. 

And of course, I will be shooting any active sensor first, starting with the biggest.  Hopefully, they don't have a cloak. 
 

Offline dooots

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2011, 01:02:53 AM »
Unless its changed since 5.14 cloaking reduces the hull size signature of the cloaked ship on active sensors.  So given the numbers you posted a 14kton ship would look like a 2.1kton ship to the enemies.  I don't remember the formula for how sensors work when it comes to detecting smaller ships but it may be possible for the enemy to still target your ship at a decent range.
 

Offline jseah (OP)

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2011, 01:51:42 AM »
Eh?  Reduces cross section?  =/

Quote
The reduction in range of hostile sensors when trying to detect a ship equipped with this type of cloak
That's the description for the tech... But ok, I'll take your word for it. 

Still, that just means I have to rush out 93% reduction and efficiency 6.  Might take a year and a half or so, but well, the James Callaghan (the command ship) is already insanely expensive and the sensor suite is definitely worth the price of better protection. 

Effiency 6 gives me a total tonnage of 12 ktons, with 0.07 size = 840 tons, being that my command ship now looks slightly smaller than my FACs. 


And if it operates that way, I could go the way of a totally cloaked fleet, forcing any enemy to close to less than half range to even shoot at me.  I estimate that dropping combat power by 1/3 could get all my ships cloak devices. 
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Home of Light Defence Fleet
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2011, 06:51:24 AM »
Unless its changed since 5.14 cloaking reduces the hull size signature of the cloaked ship on active sensors.  So given the numbers you posted a 14kton ship would look like a 2.1kton ship to the enemies.  I don't remember the formula for how sensors work when it comes to detecting smaller ships but it may be possible for the enemy to still target your ship at a decent range.
If the resolution of the sensor is larger than the ship it is trying to pick up then it uses the square of the difference as a modifier.  So a res 100 sensor trying to pick up a size 50 ship will only pick it up at 1/4 (1/2 squared) the range.  The real answer therefore is it depends on how strong the sensor is and if they have multiple sensors for different sizes.  A res 20 sensor will only have 1/5 the range of the res 100 for a given size but it will detect anything from 20 hull sizes on up at that range and can pick up a 10 hs target at 1/4 where the res 100 will pick up the 10hs target at 1% of its range.  Having a good scout with large passive sensors and cloaked to appear really small helps a lot in figuring this out before your main ships get shot at when you thought they were invisible.

Brian