Author Topic: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?  (Read 6693 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DFDelta

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • ***
  • Posts: 37
  • Thanked: 3 times
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 03:51:37 PM »
While I like to employ masses of disposeable satellites (engineless fighter sized weapon plattforms, basically) that I can dump somewhere and then forget about them, I have never really dived much into the art of designing actual fighters.

The few times I've actually tried I was already fairly high tech (about 2 thirds trough the tech trees) and so I had quite a bit of free weight to play with.
I usually opted to forego the usual tactic of rail-gun knife fighters (no pun intended) and instead used size reduced 20cm lasers or high range strengh 2 particle beams. The 4 to 5 HS (compared to the 3 HS 10cm rail-gun) cannon makes them rather limited when it comes to other equipment, but being able to poke an enemy from 0.6m km out with 4 or 5 dozen beams has a hilarity all of its own.

I doubt they'd be any good against players who know what they're doing but against my NPRs and spoilers they've been quite helpful.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 03:54:05 PM by DFDelta »
Constant optimism will not solve your problems, but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.
 

Offline ExChairman

  • Bronze Supporter
  • Commodore
  • *****
  • E
  • Posts: 614
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter : Support the forums with a Bronze subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2015, 12:47:29 AM »
I have not used any of these fighters so I don't know how well they are in battle, I got a carrier with 40 Eclipse Fighters with a Advanced Spinal Mounted laser:

Eclipse class Fighter Beam    365 tons     4 Crew     557.6 BP      TCS 7.3  TH 150  EM 0
41095 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 4
Maint Life 3.69 Years     MSP 95    AFR 10%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 11    5YR 163    Max Repair 161 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 6   

Hooper Research Inc Fighter Hot Engine  (2)    Power 150    Fuel Use 192.91%    Signature 75    Exp 30%
Fuel Capacity 20 000 Litres    Range 5.1 billion km   (34 hours at full power)

Sharpe Research Inc Fighter Laser (1)    Range 62 500km     TS: 41095 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 11    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 0 0 0 0
Faulkner-Anderson Beam Fighter Control (1)    Max Range: 62 500 km   TS: 80000 km/s     84 68 52 36 20 4 0 0 0 0
Lawson & Murphy Fighter Power Unit (2)     Total Power Output 8    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Gardiner-Taylor Fighter Sensor Suite (1)     GPS 54     Range 8.6m km    Resolution 4

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes



This one was not built due to the standard Eclipse is way better in killing things and about 9000 Km/s faster...

Eclipse - Copy class Fighter Beam    465 tons     4 Crew     492.6 BP      TCS 9.3  TH 150  EM 0
32258 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 6
Maint Life 2.47 Years     MSP 66    AFR 17%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 15    5YR 225    Max Repair 117 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 6   

Hooper Research Inc Fighter Hot Engine  (2)    Power 150    Fuel Use 192.91%    Signature 75    Exp 30%
Fuel Capacity 20 000 Litres    Range 4.0 billion km   (34 hours at full power)

Gauss Cannon R1-100 (1x8)    Range 10 000km     TS: 32258 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 1    ROF 5        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Faulkner-Anderson Beam Fighter Control (1)    Max Range: 62 500 km   TS: 80000 km/s     84 68 52 36 20 4 0 0 0 0
Lawson & Murphy Fighter Power Unit (2)     Total Power Output 8    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Gardiner-Taylor Fighter Sensor Suite (1)     GPS 54     Range 8.6m km    Resolution 4

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

Veni, Vedi, Volvo
"Granström"

Wargame player and Roleplayer for 33 years...
 

Offline linkxsc

  • Commander
  • *********
  • Posts: 304
  • Thanked: 16 times
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2015, 02:42:25 PM »
The second fighter there would probably be much better off with a 50% gc. Reason being, with 8 shots you'd still mission kill the first fighter 50% of the time in combat. Though it might have some trouble getting in range.
 

Offline DIT_grue

  • Lieutenant
  • *******
  • D
  • Posts: 197
  • Thanked: 33 times
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 09:39:06 PM »
One of the selling points for Gauss is that it doesn't need a power plant.   Strip those, as well as halving the size of the cannon as linkxsc suggested (besides his reasoning, you're wasting any bonus you could get from crew grade or officer skills) and you should be able to get a significantly smaller, thus faster, fighter.   Actually, a shorter-ranged fire-control would probably be another good place to trim a little.   And can you drop the FC's Tracking Speed?
 

Offline linkxsc

  • Commander
  • *********
  • Posts: 304
  • Thanked: 16 times
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 11:08:11 PM »
Lol got through typing my earlier post out refreshed the page and went out of service all day (out on a boat) , sitting there staring at the reactors on the GC fighter like "the hell, those shouldnt be there"

Pulling those off alone would be 50 or so tons saved (dunno the exact tech level present here). Also 50% of the fire control weight can be shaved off due to the fact that you arent getting close to 80km/s

Also your engines seem a little low powered for a fighter. Could probably ramp them up in power a bit and get them above 60kkm/s. Generally i shoot for fighters having about 2.5bil range, unless they are for special roles.

Nice thing about fighters though, is you can shift production to different better designs on a moments notice.
 

Offline MarcAFK

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2005
  • Thanked: 134 times
  • ...it's so simple an idiot could have devised it..
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2015, 11:59:58 PM »
Hmm, a T.I.E should be as small and cheap as possible. How about this?
Code: [Select]
Twin Ion Engine class Fighter    165 tons     1 Crew     35.4 BP      TCS 3.3  TH 42  EM 0
12727 km/s     Armour 1-2     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0.5
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 33%    IFR 0.5%    1YR 3    5YR 45    Max Repair 21 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 9   

42 EP Ion Drive (1)    Power 42    Fuel Use 317.62%    Signature 42    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 10,000 Litres    Range 3.4 billion km   (3 days at full power)

Gauss Cannon R3-8 (1x3)    Range 24,000km     TS: 12727 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 8%     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S00.2 12-3000 (FTR) (1)    Max Range: 24,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     58 17 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes
Everything is around Ion tech level, but to be honest a Tie should have a pair of lasers, but at this tech level it would be 500 tons and very slow.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline 83athom

  • Big Ship Commander
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1261
  • Thanked: 86 times
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 09:44:15 AM »
Just a small thing of criticism, you forgot about the T in T.I.E. in your design. And twin gauss cannons would work fine instead of lasers, because of the mechanics of the game.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline MarcAFK

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2005
  • Thanked: 134 times
  • ...it's so simple an idiot could have devised it..
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2015, 10:01:34 AM »
It's a 2 HS engine, but I think 2 would be better :p
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline Arwyn

  • Gold Supporter
  • Commander
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 338
  • Thanked: 40 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2015, 11:20:44 PM »
I have used Gauss and railgun fighters successfully in a point defense role, and more successfully in warp point CAP, even with the reduced size versions of Gauss. I generally never go below half-sized Gauss, but they are still very very effective used right.

First off, a fully trained fighter squadron is CHEAP vs. a set of patrol frigates. A squadron of 10 60BP fighters and a 1593 BP fighter station is 2193 BP vs. 3 patrol frigates at 3033 BP. It also means your not tying up mobile units to system defense!

Fighters are attrition units. They are dead cheap to build, and even a small planet can crank out a respectable number of them with a chunk of fighter factories.

My usual method is to build em, drop em on a "station" carrier that only has 1 engine and a stupidly low speed. Once that fighters are on board, put em on training. The fuel bunker on the station, plus the high supplies, mean that I can usually train the squadron(s) up to 100% in short order, with no breaks for shore leave.
100% training means they, generally, react quickly, and thats really important, especially for CAP.

Here is the killer for beam armed fighters. You NEED officers with a high Fighter Combat Bonus, and a high initiative rating. With both of those, you have the basis for some pretty killer fighters.

For example here is an mid Ion tech gauss fighter from an inactive game I have:
Code: [Select]
F-2 Ironsides class Fighter    335 tons     10 Crew     60.8 BP      TCS 6.7  TH 18  EM 0
5373 km/s     Armour 2-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 4.59 Years     MSP 11    AFR 8%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 1    5YR 13    Max Repair 18 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 0   

Bonner Aeronautical 18 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 18    Fuel Use 163.69%    Signature 9    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 1.6 billion km   (3 days at full power)

Sughroue Aerospace Gauss Cannon R3-50 (1x3)    Range 30,000km     TS: 5373 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 50%     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mancil-Franchi Fighter Beam Control (1)    Max Range: 32,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     69 37 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Its slow, the Gauss cannon only have three shots, and they need something to target for them. Their range and endurance are nothing special. BUT they have been very effective none the less. It also armed with a half sized Gauss, due to weight restrictions. The fighter HAD to be fast enough to catch the enemy fleet (4000ish km) hence the smaller Gauss.

How so? First, with a good Fighter Combat bonus, the chance to hit goes from a not so great 34.5% (50% of 69%) to 70% or more. Since movement is done in ascending order of initiative, a squadron commander with a high init, will go AFTER the targets move. Meaning you can stay on top of them if your fighters are faster.

100% to hit +10 fighters x ROF of 3 = 30 points of damage EVERY 5 seconds. At Ion tech, your average AMM is rolling every 10 seconds. Ditto with larger Rail and Lasers.

That means, on average, you get 60 points of damage in for ever time they fire.

Now, don't get me wrong, these fighters are VERY vulnerable. Lasers and mesons eat them for lunch. But with 2pts (2-4) of armor, AMM's dont instakill them. Railguns suffer (usually at this tech) a degraded to hit due to tracking speed, and dont instakill them. Gauss cannon have to sandpaper them, but usually have the tracking speed to hit easily.

Since I run these squadrons in pairs (2x10 fighters) I am putting out 60pts per 5 seconds, and 120 pts per exchange of fire. Thats a lot of concentrated fire on any singular target.

Now, assuming you are running to railgun tech, the ratio is even better early on. The same basic fighter with a railgun:
Code: [Select]
F-3 Hammer class Fighter    355 tons     14 Crew     62.8 BP      TCS 7.1  TH 18  EM 0
5070 km/s     Armour 2-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 5.36 Years     MSP 11    AFR 10%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 1    5YR 10    Max Repair 13.5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 1   

Bonner Aeronautical 18 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 18    Fuel Use 163.69%    Signature 9    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 1.5 billion km   (3 days at full power)

Iorio Incorporated 10cm Railgun V2/C3 (1x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 5070 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mancil-Franchi Fighter Beam Control (1)    Max Range: 32,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     69 37 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cavallo-Rao MCF P-3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Armour 0    Exp 5%

The railgun is putting out 40 points per 5 seconds, assuming similar pilot quality, which means 80 points per 10 second fire cycle.

Finally, the laser fighter. Once again, same tech level (mid Ion):
Code: [Select]
F-5 Tiger class Fighter    355 tons     14 Crew     57.8 BP      TCS 7.1  TH 18  EM 0
5070 km/s     Armour 2-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 5.81 Years     MSP 10    AFR 10%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 1    5YR 8    Max Repair 13.5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 1   

Bonner Aeronautical 18 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 18    Fuel Use 163.69%    Signature 9    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 1.5 billion km   (3 days at full power)

Rake-Clinkscale 10cm C3 Infrared Laser (1)    Range 30,000km     TS: 5070 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 1    ROF 5        3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mancil-Franchi Fighter Beam Control (1)    Max Range: 32,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     69 37 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cavallo-Rao MCF P-3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Armour 0    Exp 5%

The laser fighter is comparable directly to the railgun fighter in terms of effectiveness. It is a bit better in Maint life, and HITS harder, with three points of concentrated damage. It benefits from better hit chances, and with a similar high skill pilot, 100% hits are achievable. Overall damage still goes to the railgun, as in terms of total output, the laser is going to tie with the Gauss for overall damage output, but concentrates damage better.

On top of that the Gauss cost is almost identical as the railgun, and the laser fighter is cheaper! The other fighters maintenance endurance are much better than the Gauss, by almost a year for the railgun, and better than a year for the laser.

And before everyone mentions it, yes, in the case of all of these fighters, they need an upgraded fire control to take advantage of the speed they offer, especially the Gauss fighter, if you want to use them for PD roles.

Why would you build the Gauss over the Railgun, which is clearly superior at this tech? Only for PD fighters, marginally. The winner early on, is railguns, followed by lasers for the damage profile. I go railgun if I start with the tech. Lasers otherwise. Gauss only if I get something with it early.

Now, later in tech levels, the Gauss starts to catch up in effectiveness, from a volume of damage perspective, once it hits 4 rounds per impulse. Gauss also gets faster (proportionally) with tech increases as they carry less mass (no power plant) than rail or laser armed fighters.

Where Gauss REALLY shines is when you get very skilled fighter pilots later in the game. The very highly reduced Gauss guns become beasts when you can get the hit percentage up to something normal with high XP pilots. A fighter with two Gauss 4x25 throw out eight rounds per fighter. Coupled with a bunch of high skill pilots and things get really nasty, and fast.

I have shredded single and small groups of NPR ships with there fighters on the warp point. They are meat in open space, usually, but thats not what they are used for.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • J
  • Posts: 2837
  • Thanked: 673 times
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2015, 06:00:24 PM »
One problem with Gauss cannons is that the initiative system might mean that you never will be able to fire them even if your fighters is faster, at least against fast enemy ships and/or fighters.

If your fighters have a lower initiative than the enemy then those ships will always have a five second advantage in range on you which might put you outside the Gauss cannon maximum range.

When it comes to Jump points I find the least wasteful approach in both human life (crew and officers) are mining them. It is impossible to stop a dedicated attack with anything less than a fleet temporarily defending a JP anyway. This is only possible if you know an attack is coming or at least if you suspect one.

Gauss fighters are otherwise good in a secondary PD role and for engaging unarmed enemy ships. In fighter versus fighter combat I prefer longer range lasers because I find that Gauss can be a bit unreliable because of how initiative work in such scenarios. It is even more problematic once you have your fighter groups fly in formations because range actually become even more important. Gauss can also be weak against armored fighters.

I still find small Gauss interceptors valuable for missile defense of fighter groups. A common strategy in my campaigns are a fair number of different fighter types. Multi-role interceptors is a thing that has both missiles and Gauss cannons as well as long range beam cannons on dedicated interceptors. The role of multi-role fighters is to take out enemy beam fighters or sensor crafts at a distance while using their Gauss cannons to protect against enemy missiles.

In my games Gauss cannons on fighters is a last ditch weapon for self defense or PD work. Rail-guns are also somewhat low on range and is just a half measure in between a Laser or Gauss weapon and I rarely use them on fighters. Railguns are better on FAC type crafts if used at all, Railguns also falls of in importance as technology develops.

You can certainly use fighters as an offensive weapon but in the long run it usually is a very inefficient one. Sooner or later you are up against an enemy that can more or less kill an endless number of fighters at a safe distance. With beam fighters you need to know when and how to pick your battles, the same goes for Beam only fleets. Beam weapons is good for JP attack/defense and for dissuading enemy ships at closing with you. They can also be important to defend planets from invasion or obliteration.
 

Offline Erik L

  • Administrator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 5656
  • Thanked: 366 times
  • Forum Admin
  • Discord Username: icehawke
  • 2020 Supporter 2020 Supporter : Donate for 2020
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2015, 06:15:15 PM »
Diverging from fighters for a moment.

Mines are hit or miss. If the enemy is close enough you can wipe the entire minefield with a couple ships.

Offline Jorgen_CAB

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • J
  • Posts: 2837
  • Thanked: 673 times
Re: Tie Fighter Approach: How to do it?
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2015, 06:34:44 PM »
Diverging from fighters for a moment.

Mines are hit or miss. If the enemy is close enough you can wipe the entire minefield with a couple ships.

In my opinion mine fields are not suppose to stop enemy fleets but to stop enemy scouts and probing attempts and give you a warning of an unsuspecting enemy. It will stop en enemy trying to send small forces in unopposed and lower the potential loss of life to a minimum.

If I suspect an enemy attack is imminent I send a temporary fleet to that JP until I can muster enough strength to go on the offensive myself.

Offense is mostly the best defense if you can get a good enough advantage in strength.

There can of course be instances when you want to make a JP into a fortress, but those a rare circumstances for the most part.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 06:50:52 PM by Jorgen_CAB »