Aurora 4x
New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: Havan_IronOak on February 02, 2016, 03:51:05 PM
-
For whatever reason, a conventional start appeals to me. (Perhaps it feels like an easy way to enter into the game)
The Wiki is pretty light on the Conventional Start and I'm looking to create a section on it.
I'm thinking of
Researches to focus on
What to do with Industry early on
Appointing Governors in a Pre-colonial world
The value of ICBM's in a post modern age
Game options that one might consider changing to level the playing field. (assuming that NPR's can be generated as anything other than conventional)
Does anyone have any suggestions for what else they'd like to see included?
-
The warning that you will be 20-50 years behind any NPRs tech-wise?
-
I'd expect to be behind. One method of counteracting that that I am trying in my own game right now is to start with only 1 NPR and to allow NPR's to spawn as Trans-Newtonian but to up the number of starting research labs on Earth. In my current game I started with 15 rather than the default 5.
I fully expect to still get creamed but it's only a game.
If I do create a section for this in the wiki, I plan to put it under Tutorials. Does that seem right?
-
Conventional start is actually hard mode for Aurora
-
I always used to use a conventional start and it works well for really learning the game. you are massively limited in what you can do to begin with and each asset be it ships/troops/installations are much more important on an individual level at that stage. This forces you to think about how you use each one and where will be the greatest benefit to achieve your goals. In addition to this the other parts of the game such as jump drives, cloaks, shields and so on also tend to trickle into being within your empire and so you get plenty of time to understand how each of them work from within a game perspective rather than suddenly getting all the toys at once and not having a clue how to use any of them. Aurora has a steep enough learning curve as it is, by using the conventional start you at least turn that curve into a gentle stroll up a hill.
Having said that though I now find that unless there is a very specific RP story in mind, then conventional starts are just frustratingly slow. at this stage your industry, mining, and research speeds are pitiful compared to the specialised facilities of the TN age. Ships take an age to arrive at places and then tend to have to come straight home to refuel, along with the fact that your shipyards simply cannot grow fast enough to really build big vessels (nor do you have the wealth or mineral output to support such). It can have the chance to turn in to a very long game of hit the 30 day button over and over until you hit TN, then repeat while you now convert all your pre TN assests to the new technology.
If you made good use of the truce counter though it could be used for a multi nation RP Earth start. As for ICBM's they are generally useless from a tactical standpoint in the TN age, but you can still use the launchers for their ppv value if nothing else.
-
Thanks for that input. I agree that it does seem a good way to learn the game rather than being dumped into the deep end of space.
The only reason that I mentioned ICBM's above was that both let's plays that that I saw recently started with a conventional start and they both opted to NOT have ICBMs. Of course when the planets started wanting protecting they spent resources dealing with that. My ICBM's gave me a perceived level of protection that put the demand out there a while.
I say that they're a good training ground for your troops. Folks can level up a bit and not be declared surplus quite so quickly. I've used them to make sure that anybody with survey skill was safe until I could get a geo survey ship up and running so that I'd have lots of folks for the ground based surveys.
I also upped the number of Research labs at the outset as I was allowing trans-newtonian races to spawn and I wanted to be as ready as possible. I used them to train up any researchers I did get and to start the catch-up process.
-
I usually do conventional starts as well.
In my current game for starting settings, I set the game to generate pre-TN races only, and zero starting NPR's. I also turned off all spoilers except precursors. The plan is after exploring a few systems out, to turn on swarm, and maybe regular TN NPR generation, and then later, invaders. This lets me get my nice organic development without getting stomped by a full NPR 1 system over.
From a more RP standpoint, I create ruins on Mars (re-roll till Ruined City or better), starting pop at 1 billion (gives 10 labs), and zero shipyards. I also delete the starting 5 maintenance facilities, DST, and academy so I start with nothing but conventional industry and the 10 labs. I also instant research the basic 'Trans-Newtonian Technology' since there aren't many interesting decisions before that.
I also have a few 'tricks' on a conventional start to make things interesting. You can build a PDC with an ICBM launcher and fire control (if you don't start with ICBM bases), and once the first reactor tech and geo-sensors are researched, you can build a size 24 probe that can reach out to Saturn. This lets me discover the Mars ruins before even having a shipyard built. A few fighter factories lets me build a conventional-engined shuttle that can take a xeno team to Mars.
For the wiki, somebody doing a single empire conventional start for the purpose of learning the game, I would suggest similar. No starting NPR's, conventional only NPR generation, no spoilers, and stick a ruin somewhere in Sol.
Starting goals would be to geo survey sol, find the ruins, send a xeno team to the ruins, establish 1 or more colonies (Mars, Luna, other), get construction brigades to the ruins and perform recoveries, research jump theory and grav sensors, grav survey sol, build jump ships, and explore 1 or 2 systems out from sol in all directions. At that point, maybe turn on precursors/swarm. If you find a conventional NPR, maybe conquer them (learn ground combat). Establish 1 or more colonies outside Sol. Find some precursors/swarm and defeat them. Explore more. Then, when ready turn on TN NPR's.
Would it be worth writing up a walkthrough based on something like this?
-
I usually do conventional starts as well.
...
Would it be worth writing up a walkthrough based on something like this?
I like your thinking! But tell me more about dealing with alien races and ruins!!!
-
There is a reason why those ICBMs would have been opted against beyond rp reasons, that's because until like one or two versions ago the design was bugged, they didn't quite have enough crew quarters so you would get constant interrupts about their life support failing. Well it was a minor thing to go through and fix it was just not always worth it especially if you have a large population and or were doing a multi faction start.
-
This was the design for my very first Geo-Survey vessel using the Conventional Start (15 starting labs)
I know that I could have waited for better technology before building anything but I wanted to get ground based geo-survey teams out there advancing their skills and (hopefully) finding additional mineral reserves ASAP before any of those with skills were "deemed redundant."
Discovery I was slow and it even had trouble catching Mercury but was fine for surveying all the rest of the inner solar system and even managed to snag a few serendipitous comets. About the time that it completed its first "Five Year Mission" (RIP Mr. Roddenberry) I had better designs already flying and this guy could be refitted at minimal cost.
Note that it was constructed in August of the third game year (The system won't allow numbering starting with year zero)
Discovery I class Geological Survey Vessel 3,600 tons 35 Crew 184 BP TCS 72 TH 3 EM 0
41 km/s Armour 1-20 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/1 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 32 Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 60 months Spare Berths 0
Atlas I 3 EP Commercial Conventional Engine (1) Power 3 Fuel Use 2.46% Signature 3 Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 100.0 billion km (28229 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Constructed August 6, Year 4
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
I'm developing a Conventional Start Strategy Guide. Any suggestions on this initial Ship Design?
btw... The early ground based survey strategy has paid off in that I now have 15 survey officers of varying degrees of skills
Also every single stellar body except the four most distant comets have been orbitally surveyed by year 10.
Any bodies that showed minerals have also been ground surveyed as well.
All planet sized bodies and moons that COULD be colonized have been ground surveyed as well regardless of what their orbital scans have shown.
-
Same assumptions and same start as in my Earlier post
The Discovery II design (ca June year 5) had better (lighter) Armour than the Discovery I but wasn't much faster so only 1 was made.
The Discovery III with improved engine technology was commissioned in April of Year 8. The two earlier models were refit to this version at minimal cost.
Initial plans were started on a Discovery IV design but with nothing left to explore in the SOL system those designs were shelved.
Discovery III class Geological Survey Vessel 3,200 tons 35 Crew 188.45 BP TCS 64 TH 75 EM 0
1171 km/s Armour 1-19 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/1 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 37 Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 60 months Spare Berths 0
Atlas II 75 EP Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine (1) Power 75 Fuel Use 2.22% Signature 75 Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 126.6 billion km (1251 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
-
I have two small comments. The first one is a preference one and it's just I wouldn't design a ship class with a single engine. The other one, and you might be limited by tech, is your ship doesn't need that much range. For Sol 20bkm is enough, and 126bkm is enough that you could probably base it on Earth and have the farthest reaches of your empire be within its range for most to all of the game.
-
Thanks for that input.
I'd actually made a note to have my Grav-survey vessels have a second engine but wasn't sure if commercial engines are subject to breaking down, even when used on a military vessel. Then I basically forgot to rethink it.
I will definitely go with a two engine design in future. As to range, I was just using the most fuel efficient size possible (50) I should probably rethink that as well particularly in light of the two engine premise.
-
Commercial ships don't break down but I have found my grav and geo survey ships unexpectedly in combat too many times. I have talked about that preference in a few threads recently but it's just a numbers game, weighing fuel efficiency vs chance of engines being destroyed specifically in combat.
Your two engines should probably be size 25.
-
Commercial ships don't break down but I have found my grav and geo survey ships unexpectedly in combat too many times. I have talked about that preference in a few threads recently but it's just a numbers game, weighing fuel efficiency vs chance of engines being destroyed specifically in combat.
Your two engines should probably be size 25.
Two 25's sound reasonable. Since the Grav Survey ship is classed as military anyway I was thinking that it should have a small active sensor as well that is normally off. When the Grav surveys are complete the ship can do double duty as a picket/sentinel. Does that make sense?
-
Two 25's sound reasonable. Since the Grav Survey ship is classed as military anyway I was thinking that it should have a small active sensor as well that is normally off. When the Grav surveys are complete the ship can do double duty as a picket/sentinel. Does that make sense?
An active sensor can also pick up a JG without the need for grav-surveying. That includes at points with JGs that were not discovered through normal grav-surveying (yes, that is a thing).
-
As a stop gap measure until you can get real pickets that's not a bad idea. In that case I'd recommend a passive sensor either in addition to or instead of the active.
-
And a size 1 (or smaller) active and passive sensors are classed as commercial.
-
And a size 1 (or smaller) active and passive sensors are classed as commercial.
Excellent! I'll keep that in mind.
It's August of year 11
I've completed all the geo-surveys with the exception of four long period comets that are all out past the range of my old survey ships. Ikeya-Zang is just reaching its aphelion of 9.5 billion miles. Books is on it's way in but is still beyond that distance, and Hale-Bopp and McNaught-Russel are still on their way out.
GSV Newton 1 (My Grav-Survey Ship) has already found 5 jump point locations though I'm years away from opening THAT can of worms. It's finished with 27 of the 30 survey locations (though I know from the game set-up that it's not gonna find any more jump points) and is happily tooling around the cosmos.
So I decided it's time to do some empirical testing of the success rate on Geo-survey teams while I develop my tech. ...and to watch how Earth mines out. I've got 400 ground based mines that were converted from the 40% of my conventional industry that I converted. Plus I built 80 automated mines figuring that I'd deploy them to the stellar bodies with the most abundant minerals.
Right now I'm analyzing how people may be jumping into space mining too early simply because it's there. (Of course that depends on what mineral availability you start with on Earth)
I set up a spreadsheet with all the Earth Minerals and their availability and plugged in the quantities and developed an average return per mine. In my specific game it's 5.72 in Year 11 down from 5.82 from when I first started tracking it (about year 7 or so) Nothing's gonna mine out for at least 5 years and the least plentiful minerals are the ones that have started bringing down my average Earth Mine Yield. Just to be on the safe side, I've also got 5 mass drivers ready to go so as to quickly deal with any shortfalls.
The bodies with the most available minerals have (at best) a simple availability sum of 5. I'm prepared to move auto-mines when Earth yields start plummeting but I've got a stockpile of everything with Duranium being the lowest. I've got two years production on hand and the resource is still at availability of 1 on Earth with 35 years until depletion. Corbomite, Boronide, Mercassium, and Uridium are the most troubling as to years to depletion. But each of those has at least 5 years of current production stockpiled and most over 10 years worth.
The only projected shortfall on the list (based on current project usage rates) is Duranium.
Again, that can best be resolved by staying Earthbound.
Does that analysis seem sound or am I missing something?
-
Your minerals will last for a very long time if you never do anything.
-
Next Question...
Luna is barren of any minerals whatsoever. Even after a ground based geo-survey. It's obviously easily colonizable and I know that it tends to grow much more quickly than Earth. Any opinions on how soon I should be trying to establish Luna and/or Mars colonies given a conventional start?
I know that circumstances may vary. In my case Earth's supply of Boronide is down under 50K and Mars has 5M but it's only at a 0.1 level. Mars also has 41K of Corbomite at 0.9 (which Earth is low on) 13M of Duranium at 0.2 availability and 375K of Corundium at 0.3
-
Next Question...
Luna is barren of any minerals whatsoever. Even after a ground based geo-survey. It's obviously easily colonizable and I know that it tends to grow much more quickly than Earth. Any opinions on how soon I should be trying to establish Luna and/or Mars colonies given a conventional start?
I know that circumstances may vary. In my case Earth's supply of Boronide is down under 50K and Mars has 5M but it's only at a 0.1 level. Mars also has 41K of Corbomite at 0.9 (which Earth is low on) 13M of Duranium at 0.2 availability and 375K of Corundium at 0.3
From a game play only perspective there is no point in colonizing the moon in that case.
-
Well, there are still a couple benefits. Population grows faster when it is split across multiple smaller colonies as compared to all on Earth, and you also have a higher percentage of that population being available as workers to crew your installations. Higher population means you also have a higher wealth income through taxes. You also get free infrastructure created by the civilian economy and dumped on Luna assuming you don't perfectly terraform it.
-
You can also split up industries to take advantage of governor bonuses. Something like towing all your shipyards to Luna (once it has enough population) and putting a governor with a good shipbuilding bonus there, then let Earth keep all the factories with a good construction bonus governor. Does require some logistics to keep minerals where you need them, but it's such a short trip it doesn't take much time.
-
Colonies generate income both from taxes and also from shipping. The fact you have a colony on the moon will stimulate the growth of your shipping sector. Also when the colony grows it will generate goods that can be shipped. You can terraform the moon into a fairly cheap (in terms of infrastructure) place to live as well. It is possible to use the colony as a site for things (not really necessary in the case of luna) where you need population.
There are lots of "gameplay" reasons to put colonies on rocks that have no minerals, but it is not something you should do willy nilly. The NCC has colonies on Luna and Ganymede neither of which have minerals. Forge is a linch pin colony but the planet is a hell hole that makes venus look good. Venus was a mistake but one the NCC is stuck with. I may well build a single group of terraformers just to put in orbit around venus to start making it more livable...in like 200 years or so.
For general comments on conventional starts. You have lots of time as it is slow going, so make use of it. Build ships and explore the solar system. But make sure you have a solid defence at your home world from bases/OWPs.
You also will have problems with minerals eventually and the CMC will be what saves you. You will have a fuel crissis and to get out of that you need refineries, fuel harvesters and improved efficiency for your engines. That has to be fought as an all fronts war, it is the combination of a lot of small improvements that slowly drags you out of the hole.
Outside of that I would say you have to expect problems from the NPRs who are clearly going to be ahead of your technologically. However, I don't see that as a good reason to stay home, if you are just going to huddle in your home system until you are technologically advanced I'd say just do a normal start.
-
I do a conventional start with 40 labs. I get thru TN quickly and then can go the tech paths I want to get where I want
without having access to 'all the toys' that SM gives you. Generally within 20 years I have usually explored out 2-3 systems
and have PDCs and good engines and missiles and a good financial setup on Earth. My ships are usually capable of taking
on most NPR light ships and I have done several invastions. The only slowing is having a limited poplulation on Earth and
having to carefully balance your research as having that many labs working is very expensive but the "monkey boys" of Earth
(with a nod to Larry Niven) can do quite well this way.
-
I always used to use a conventional start and it works well for really learning the game. you are massively limited in what you can do to begin with and each asset be it ships/troops/installations are much more important on an individual level at that stage. This forces you to think about how you use each one and where will be the greatest benefit to achieve your goals. In addition to this the other parts of the game such as jump drives, cloaks, shields and so on also tend to trickle into being within your empire and so you get plenty of time to understand how each of them work from within a game perspective rather than suddenly getting all the toys at once and not having a clue how to use any of them. Aurora has a steep enough learning curve as it is, by using the conventional start you at least turn that curve into a gentle stroll up a hill.
Having said that though I now find that unless there is a very specific RP story in mind, then conventional starts are just frustratingly slow. at this stage your industry, mining, and research speeds are pitiful compared to the specialised facilities of the TN age. Ships take an age to arrive at places and then tend to have to come straight home to refuel, along with the fact that your shipyards simply cannot grow fast enough to really build big vessels (nor do you have the wealth or mineral output to support such). It can have the chance to turn in to a very long game of hit the 30 day button over and over until you hit TN, then repeat while you now convert all your pre TN assests to the new technology.
If you made good use of the truce counter though it could be used for a multi nation RP Earth start. As for ICBM's they are generally useless from a tactical standpoint in the TN age, but you can still use the launchers for their ppv value if nothing else.
Similar to my preferred start. I don't force Mars to any specific ruins, but I do plant a random one there for RP.
-
Colonies generate income both from taxes and also from shipping. The fact you have a colony on the moon will stimulate the growth of your shipping sector. Also when the colony grows it will generate goods that can be shipped. You can terraform the moon into a fairly cheap (in terms of infrastructure) place to live as well.
With the conventional start, I always colonize Luna for exactly these reasons. It is key to keeping my economy balanced early on. If minerals are present, bonus!