Author Topic: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread  (Read 46223 times)

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Offline Droll

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #195 on: January 25, 2021, 08:26:20 PM »
Does ticking the 'No Maintenance Required' box get rid of weapon failure maintenance as well as standard maintenance in v. 1. 13? I know ships would still need MSP for damage control but I haven't been able to tell if the ships weapons still fail.

Yes it gets rid of weapon failures as well
 
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Offline vorpal+5

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #196 on: January 26, 2021, 11:16:21 PM »
Would Steve consider adding in a different resource to limit ground installations other than population?

I hate how Research Facilities, which should have a very small, if any, population requirement due to the specialized skills needed to work there, required a population of 1,000,000!

Even if you assume that a vast majority are supporting industries, that is still far, far more people involved than there should. You can't build secret moon research bases without shipping literally a million people to said "secret" base which is a big shame.

What if Research Facilities required a huge amount of power from a new Power Grid ground installation?

I would like that too. Although I think Steve don't want to elaborate much more the "facility" game. Me I like Civilization-esque plethora of buildings, but I can understand why he don't want to go this way in Aurora.
A Power Grid requirement would be very nice though. I'm currently struggling on Europa, this is supposed to be a research center on what might be under the thick ice of the planet(oid) but with a one million pop requirement, it just don't work.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #197 on: January 26, 2021, 11:23:28 PM »
I suppose the research facilities might be trying to indicate that you need a lot of population in order to have enough people that are capable of facilitating real RND (from an aptitude perspective).  Minding it should still take thousands of people at least at the facilities themselves.

I therefore suggest that maybe specialized labor become a thing, for instance you empire can only have so many 'RND' laborers working in labs, as a percent of total empire population (so for multiplicities sake the researchers are just assumed to be living at whatever population the research complexes are located at).
 
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Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #198 on: January 27, 2021, 12:05:00 AM »
A "research complex" can be composed of quite a lot actually if you expand the definition to include support services. Not only do you have a lot of researchers (and in a TNE economy we can presume the level of education would be enabled to be quite high, many warm bodies to throw in the labs here) but numerous supporting roles - production of lab equipment, cyberinfrastructure, administration departments, and so on. One can also imagine the research complex being not only a pure lab environment but also the many connections back to the robust educational sector beyond the military academies - many universities which are affiliated with the research labs and of course have quite large staffing requirements as well, you can count at least the graduate students there and perhaps the undergrads as well if you imagine some fraction of that million population are cycled through the system each year at graduation and freshman admission dates.

Of course one might then ask why can we not place a lab way out on Europa which is supported by universities, manufacturers, etc. on Earth, and the answer there is simply that the Aurora planetside installations model simply does not go to such a level of detail.
 
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Offline Borealis4x

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #199 on: January 27, 2021, 12:38:41 AM »
A "research complex" can be composed of quite a lot actually if you expand the definition to include support services. Not only do you have a lot of researchers (and in a TNE economy we can presume the level of education would be enabled to be quite high, many warm bodies to throw in the labs here) but numerous supporting roles - production of lab equipment, cyberinfrastructure, administration departments, and so on. One can also imagine the research complex being not only a pure lab environment but also the many connections back to the robust educational sector beyond the military academies - many universities which are affiliated with the research labs and of course have quite large staffing requirements as well, you can count at least the graduate students there and perhaps the undergrads as well if you imagine some fraction of that million population are cycled through the system each year at graduation and freshman admission dates.

Of course one might then ask why can we not place a lab way out on Europa which is supported by universities, manufacturers, etc. on Earth, and the answer there is simply that the Aurora planetside installations model simply does not go to such a level of detail.

I don't think its right to include such a broad array of industries with a single Research Lab. Then it poses questions like 'Why do I need a whole university to support one lab?' 'Why is the cyber-security/lab equipment industries not paying taxes?' 'If education standards are higher, wouldn't that just mean the standard for scientists has increased rather than resulted in more scientists?'

The population requirement is purely for balance, I get that. But it sticks out like a sore thumb in this case cuz its being applied to a facility that should need less people, not more, and in such an extreme way. I really hope Steve finds another way to balance things in a more sensible way. Adding a power requirement to all buildings will allow Steve to cut down on the unrealistic amount of workers the installations need without sacrificing balance. It would also give more heft to Reactor technology for empires that don't typically use Beam weapons since it would upgrade the efficiency of your Power Grid buildings.

One interesting way to balance research labs is to instead re-imagine them completely. Make them a lot more powerful but a lot rarer and harder to obtain. Make them get big bonuses from being setup on planets with special 'anomalies' so you can have those isolated secret research outposts that actually have a reason to be in the ass-crack of nowhere and not stack them all on Earth. Make the interface better so you don't pull your hair out assigning research projects across multiple planets.

I might elaborate on this further in an independent post after I think some more. It could be very interesting.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 12:49:33 AM by Borealis4x »
 
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #200 on: January 27, 2021, 02:34:44 AM »
As a side note I think I recall him mentioning that the population is actually what sets the cost of running the research complex, so it might be partly an inverse function of how high he wants the credit cost to be?  (i believe currently all buildings follow the same rules with respect to cost so it may require a change of rules to let him keep things balanced as he likes)
 

Offline serger

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #201 on: January 27, 2021, 02:50:27 AM »
I don't think its right to include such a broad array of industries with a single Research Lab.

That's why I nearly always rename "Research Lab" to "R&D complex" in the DB.
(Except for test campaigns, that I play to contribute at bug-hunting - that's "no bug report after BD intrusion" rule.)

As for other questions about economic model - it is possible not to look at this direction, and I prefer strongly to not look.
(With unsuitable names I have no such option.)

Adding a power requirement to all buildings will allow Steve to cut down on the unrealistic amount of workers the installations need without sacrificing balance. It would also give more heft to Reactor technology for empires that don't typically use Beam weapons since it would upgrade the efficiency of your Power Grid buildings.

One interesting way to balance research labs is to instead re-imagine them completely. Make them a lot more powerful but a lot rarer and harder to obtain. Make them get big bonuses from being setup on planets with special 'anomalies' so you can have those isolated secret research outposts that actually have a reason to be in the ass-crack of nowhere and not stack them all on Earth. Make the interface better so you don't pull your hair out assigning research projects across multiple planets.

Second these.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #202 on: January 27, 2021, 03:02:40 AM »
I wouldn't mind substantially increasing the value of remote research bases, but I'd prefer if stacking most of them on earth or wherever remained viable purely due to that making a degree of logical sense.  You don't usually do a huge percentage of your RND at random remote locations because a lot of the heavy lifting involved in making something work benefits most from close access to the rest of the economy and access to as many engineers as possible.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #203 on: January 27, 2021, 04:35:20 AM »
Research in the game are fairly abstract and you need to impose personal restriction for it not to become too gamey, in my opinion.

I would not mind if research at some point became a bit more dynamic and fun.

Right now you don't really have any education level of the population which should be something that limit the amount of research complexes you could build and utilise. I also think that you should separate civilisation spanning research from more military applied sciences and they should perhaps tie a bit more into each other.

In general, military applied science spin of from more general civilisation spanning science... so engine technology, power generation etc should be a civilian basic science that you later can do military application of requiring more sophisticated research and higher level of costs and specialisation. Civilian research does not exclusively mean private research... it would most of the time be government funded research in addition to private industrial research.

I also would like to see civilian technology spread between colonies and not get applied everywhere at the same time. So, whenever something is discovered it start somewhere and then spread through trade and having civilian research facilities on the colonies. Mining colonies would be depending on populated colonies close by to influence them. So remote mining colonies could take some time to get updated mining technologies applied. This would encourage building small populated colonies along your border even more. If not just as administrative outpost to spread technology.

I don't think it need to be very complicated, just that each technology have a separate rating for each colony and the spread to colonies depend on their types, number of population, trade and local research facilities to speed up integration of new civilian technologies.

We then have military research facilities that work exclusively on "military" application of basic research. When you discovered the pre-requisite of a new engine your civilian industry (civilian research complexes) can develop new civilian engines while you need military specific research facilities to research military applications of the same engine types.

Facilities should also be built to service a specific category of research with the ability to convert them to another field the same way you can convert a mine into an auto-mine (more or less).

Military science installation should require much less population but be way more expensive to operate from a wealth perspective and probably also a bit more expensive to build.

I would also like to see that adding more complexes to a single project should have diminishing return for the amount of RP you get. The admin rating could instead impact the penalties for adding more labs to a single project.

With the above rules it would make more sense to spread you civilian research complexes among many colonies but keep your military research more centralised, this makes allot of sense realistically. If you don't have some civilian research in large population centres it will take a very long time for such colonies to adapt to newly discovered efficiency technologies.

I also think that we should be able to set the rate at which technology spread as some people will like it more than others, the same way we can control rate of research and survey speed. So you could set the speed at ten times the normal or perhaps like I probably would reduce it quite significantly so it is a real problem I need to actual deal and account for when setting up colonies and mining operations.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:55:04 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Migi

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #204 on: January 27, 2021, 02:22:08 PM »
This is the changes discussion thread, not the suggestions thread.
 
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Offline tornakrelic

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #205 on: January 27, 2021, 04:25:30 PM »
Can I download v1. 13 somewhere? I can't seem to find it. . .
 

Offline Droll

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #206 on: January 27, 2021, 04:29:55 PM »
Can I download v1. 13 somewhere? I can't seem to find it. . .

It doesn't exist yet. 1.13 is the next version of the game, currently we are on 1.12
 

Offline tornakrelic

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #207 on: February 06, 2021, 03:51:29 PM »
Will missile retargeting be fixed in v1.13?
 

Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #208 on: February 06, 2021, 04:50:36 PM »
Will missile retargeting be fixed in v1.13?

It is not in the changelog yet. Never say never, but Steve hasn't really mentioned it and his current campaign doesn't use a lot of missiles so it is not likely.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #209 on: February 06, 2021, 05:30:05 PM »
Will missile retargeting be fixed in v1.13?

What is the bug?