Starting a game with conventional NPRs?

[markus (OP)]

An easy question: is this possible?

I'd like to have a conventional Earth start with several factions, where all but one would be AI-controlled.   I know the base game doesn't support whits and I'm pretty sure this would require some database fiddling in Access, and I'm fine with that.   I've tried several ways of how to achieve this, but always failed. 

1) I tried starting the game with all nations created as starting factions, then I went to the database, opened the "Race" table and switched the "NPR" checkbox on the races I wanted.   The result: I can't control the raced in game, but they don't seem to be doing anything. 

2) Another try: create a new game with just me as a player race, and all the other nations as NPRs created via the SM mode.   Once that is done, go to the database and switch the "NPR" checkbox off.   This gives me control of the formerly NPR races in game, and I can delete all their TN industry and replace it with conventional industry, modify their shipards, ground units etc.   Finally switch the "NPR" chechbox back on.   The result: it works, the NPRs actually act, they are able to create new research projects and even convert conventional industry.   However, they have too many base-level techs that aren't available in conventional starts. 

3) Yet another try: the same as above, except this time I also deleted all the techs the NPR races have via the database, and then I gave them some back (like "Basic Shipyard Production") via SM - to simulate conventional start tech levels.   The result: this doesn't work any more, the NPR races aren't able to do any new research. 


Does this mean that the game AI just can't handle missing some base level technologies, and that I can never have a conventional start with NPRs? Or am I just doing something wrong? I'd appreciate anyone sharing their experience. 

EDIT: But seeing as conventional NPRs can be generated during the game and work well, this must be possible!

[Charlie Beeler]

If you're wanting AI controlled conventional NPR's that you can actively compete with the answer is no.

On occasion the game will generate a discovered NPR that is pre-TN.  But these races are not functional (ie they can't grow into TN empires under AI control).

If you want a fully conventional start with multiple factions on the same homeworld all races have to be player controlled.

A note of caution here.  Most veteran players will discourage conventional starts for new players.  The intricacies of Aurora make this kind of start very difficult for those that are familiar with the games mechanics.  For new players this is much more difficult. 

[markus (OP)]

On occasion the game will generate a discovered NPR that is pre-TN.   But these races are not functional (ie they can't grow into TN empires under AI control).

I've never met one but I assumed they'd play just as any other race.  In what sense aren't they functional? Or in other words: what do they do then?

A note of caution here.   Most veteran players will discourage conventional starts for new players.   The intricacies of Aurora make this kind of start very difficult for those that are familiar with the games mechanics.   For new players this is much more difficult.  

Thanks for the warning.  I've actually played enough Aurora, and now I'm trying random shenanigans like this one.   

[sloanjh]

Or in other words: what do they do then?

Sit there and wait for you to invade them establish peaceful trading, enlightenment, and guest worker recruiting offices on their planet.

John

[markus (OP)]

Hmm. . .  this leaves me wondering what is causing the hard delineation between conventional/TNE non-player races? There is a "conventional" checkbox in the "Race" table, but that doesn't seem to be the reason, i've checked and unchecked it without any observable difference.

So is the reason for conventional NPRs being unable to do anything that they are missing the baseline technologies, as I've described in the first post?

[Charlie Beeler]

The flag is there for player controlled races.  Be they Player Race or NPR.  The AI has no code to advance a "convention" NPR into TN techs.

Something to keep in mind... the AI is actually very simple.  It was originally to control a remnant robotic race that didn't advance, but did start with tech well in advance of the Players tech.

For a challenging NPR it must be human controlled.

[Bgreman]

Can you give #3 a try again, but leave them Trans-Newtonian technology?  It might be that's the gate tech they need to behave like a TN NPR.  They'll be "technically" Trans-Newtonian, but still have to research all the other tech.  No guarantees, just something to try.

[joeclark77]

A note of caution here.  Most veteran players will discourage conventional starts for new players.  The intricacies of Aurora make this kind of start very difficult for those that are familiar with the games mechanics.  For new players this is much more difficult. 

I'm not a veteran player but I found the conventional start was a great way to learn the game.  It's very slow going, but you learn what sorts of things you need and how to achieve them, instead of getting them for free.  Of course do the tutorials first (they're based on a TN start and instant research of several techs in spacemaster mode), but then try the start from scratch.  One caveat:  I would give yourself at least 10-15 research labs and 3-4 shipyards because it's reeeeallly slow if you start with the defaults.  Also you may not have enough neutronium and mercassium on earth to build the labs and shipyards that TN starts get for free.

Also turn off the missile bases.  I don't know if this happens for everybody but they crash the game in the first turn for me, and I have to ctrl-alt-delete, restart aurora, and delete all of them anyway.

[markus (OP)]

Some new observations. . .

Can you give #3 a try again, but leave them Trans-Newtonian technology?  It might be that's the gate tech they need to behave like a TN NPR.   They'll be "technically" Trans-Newtonian, but still have to research all the other tech.   No guarantees, just something to try.

Tried it, and it didn't work.  More precisely: I created a new NPR race, deleted all their non-conventional technologies (in other words, I copy/pasted a conventional technology set over theirs in the proper database table, and deleted redundant lines), switched the race to a player race, then gave them TN Technology via the "Instant" button, and switched them back to an NPR.  The NPR didn't work, they just sat there.

However!

Then I added technologies to get them back to TN-starting levels.  At that moment, the NPR started working again! This suggest that the AI does indeed need certain minimal technologies to be able to operate.  I'm trying to find the minimal set but it's very probable these need to be all the TN starting technologies.

Also. . .  this only works if a race were generated as an TN-able NPR from the start up.  If I generate them as conventional player race, and only then switch them to an NPR, they won't do anything no matter what technologies I give them.  This is unfortunate, because raced generated as TN-able NPRs will already have some ship components researched - I can get rid of them, but it's a hassle.  In any case, it seems that the NPR generation creates certain entries in the database that a player-race generation doesn't.  I'm still not 100% sure about this because I haven't really done repeated, controlled attempts, but it sounds quite logical.

So yeah, at this point it seems a conventional NPR isn't possible.  What works fine is an NPR with only conventional industry but with the most basic TN technology already researched. 

[Erik L]

AI races need to be TN to function. AI/Conventional do not work at this time.

[markus (OP)]

PROGRESS REPORT

I'm obsessed with the idea of simulating a multiple-nations conventional start with NPRs.  I'm almost able to do that.

The trick is to use SpaceMaster to create several other nations on Earth - you need to create them as NPRs with 0 bonus research points.  Then close the game, open the database, and in the "Race" table, switch off the "NPR" column by these races, thus making them playable.  In Aurora again, you can now SpaceMaster these races to your liking.  I delete all TN industry, replace it by conventional industry (the AI is able to handle that no problem), replace all shipyards by one 1000-ton one, replace TN ground units by conventional units etc.  Then close Aurora, and delete all ships associated to these NPRs in the "Ship" table in the database.  Finally, switch the NPR checkboxes back on in.  This leaves me with NPRs that have basic TN techs (which seems to be necessary for the AI to function) but due to other bottlenecks - conventional industry and almost no shipyards - they can't utilise most of them yet.  From outside, this looks almost like a conventional start.

It seems to work too - the NPRs convert their industry to TN factories, they add slipways to shipyards, expand them etc.

I do have one issue though: they don't seem to be building any ships.

Now, when an NPR is generated, the game runs a ship design routine and populates the NPR with many ship designs.  It even prebuilds some of these ships.  However, when I replace the default shipyards by a starting, 1000-ton one, all of these designs are of course too big to be build.  I thought I would just need to wait for the NPRs to expand their shipyards, but that didn't help.  At this point, several NPRs have 3000+ tons large shipyards, which is enough to build their geo survey designs, but they don't do that yet.  They also have <1000 ton large FACs, and they don't build them either.  Aaaand, they have several PDC designs and again they don't build these (although this might be because they want to finish conventional industry conversion first, which they haven't yet).

I don't know if this has to do anything with the fact that I've deleted all their ships via the dabatase.  It shouldn't matter, I think, but perhaps I broke the AI somehow.  To confirm, I've started a new game, created a new NPR on Earth, left all its ships and industry intact, and advanced time for several months.  They haven't started building a new ship, and I didn't have time or patience to test more.

Does anyone know more about how NPRs choose to build their ships? Do I simply have to wait some more years to have the NPRs in my pseudo-conventional game start building ships? Or is this hopeless, and I broke the AI by constant twiddling with the database?

[Charlie Beeler]

Did Steve provide you with the database password or did you "hack" it?

The short answer is that you manipulated the database in a fashion that the program can not cope with.

[markus (OP)]

I was told the password by one Mr Google   

And I'm fully aware that I'm manipulating the game to do something it wasn't inteded to.  That's the whole fun of it, I'm like a child experimenting with a toy.  I'm not complaining, just sharing my findings and asking if someone understands the game enough to help me.

I haven't moved anywhere since my last post.  I still don't know what makes the NPRs build/not-build ships.   

[Steve Walmsley]

I was surprised to hear that NPRs converted their conventional industry to TN

I've checked the code though and it is in there. At some point I obviously started down the path of conventional NPRs but only partially (and then forgot about it). They still won't be able to cope with other aspects of being a conventional empire though because I never finished coding it. I will probably get back to this at some point though.

[markus (OP)]

Wow, I got a reply from the Man.  Thanks, Steve 

As long as I have you here, any idea why the NPRs aren't building ships in a TN-tech start? Do I just need to wait more? (I haven't had much time to play lately. )

Now, when an NPR is generated, the game runs a ship design routine and populates the NPR with many ship designs.   It even prebuilds some of these ships.   However, when I replace the default shipyards by a starting, 1000-ton one, all of these designs are of course too big to be build.   I thought I would just need to wait for the NPRs to expand their shipyards, but that didn't help.   At this point, several NPRs have 3000+ tons large shipyards, which is enough to build their geo survey designs, but they don't do that yet.   They also have <1000 ton large FACs, and they don't build them either.   Aaaand, they have several PDC designs and again they don't build these (although this might be because they want to finish conventional industry conversion first, which they haven't yet). 

I haven't messed with their shipbuilding capabilities except by modifying their shipyards (should be OK) and deleting their ships in the "Ship" table (which I guess is the cause of the issue).