Author Topic: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech  (Read 1885 times)

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Offline hostergaard (OP)

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Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« on: July 26, 2022, 04:50:46 AM »
I don't have much experience with doing ground units so I am looking for some critique and reviews of this design I have made here. I basically followed the advice in these two threads:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11795.0

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11994.0





Code: [Select]
Artillery Company
Transport Size: 3,121 tons
Build Cost: 189.9 BP
2x HQ Emplacment Company
40x Artillery Emplacement Defender Class
2x AA Emplacement Cerub Class
8x Resupply Infantry
1x Supply Truck
2x Anti Vehicle Emplacement Fortress Class
34x Space Marine

Code: [Select]
Boarding Space Marine Platoon
Transport Size: 499 tons
Build Cost: 124.8 BP
1x Boarding Space Marine HQ500
5x Boarding Terminator Space Marine
143x Boarding Light Space Marine

Code: [Select]
Boarding Space Marine Platoon HQ
Transport Size: 100 tons
Build Cost: 25 BP
1x Boarding Space Marine HQ500
4x Boarding Terminator Space Marine
14x Boarding Light Space Marine

Code: [Select]
Boarding Space Marine Squad
Transport Size: 100 tons
Build Cost: 23 BP
14x Boarding Light Space Marine
4x Boarding Terminator Space Marine
1x Boarding Light Space Marine HQ100

Code: [Select]
Catalan Battle Company
Transport Size: 3,125 tons
Build Cost: 313.6 BP
2x Catalan Command Company
50x Catalan Heavy Machine Gun Team
50x Catalan Bazooka Team
2x Catalan Supply Team
199x Catalan Space Marine

Code: [Select]
Catalan Defense Company
Transport Size: 3,123 tons
Build Cost: 202 BP
2x Catalan Supply Team
2x Catalan Command Company
40x Catalan Bazooka Team
192x Catalan Commando
40x Catalan Heavy Machine Gun Team
10x Catalan Mortar Team
10x Catalan SAM Team

Code: [Select]
Command Battalion
Transport Size: 3,125 tons
Build Cost: 174.4 BP
2x HQ Emplacment Battalion
5x AA Emplacement Angle Class
7x Artillery Emplacement Guardian Class
14x Space Marine
25x Supply Truck
2x Supply Infantery
1x Space Marine Recon
1x Construction Vehicles

Code: [Select]
Command Brigade
Transport Size: 12,500 tons
Build Cost: 753.6 BP
3x HQ Emplacment Brigade
37x Space Marine
4x Construction Vehicles
4x Supply Infantery
90x Supply Truck
30x AA Emplacement Angle Class
30x Artillery Emplacement Guardian Class
2x Space Marine Recon

Code: [Select]
GeoSurvey Troop
Transport Size: 1,000 tons
Build Cost: 40.4 BP
4x GeoSurvey Trucks
1x GeoSurvey Troop HQ

Code: [Select]
Space Marine Company
Transport Size: 3,125 tons
Build Cost: 312.2 BP
2x Space Marine Company Leader
70x Space Marine Destroyer
152x Space Marine
45x Space Marine Terminator
1x Supply Truck
2x Supply Heavy Infantery

Code: [Select]
Titan Battle Company
Transport Size: 3,120 tons
Build Cost: 664.2 BP
5x Titan Emperor Class
7x Supply Heavy Infantery
1x HQ Emplacment Company
1x Supply Truck


So the overall strategy here is when invading planets I go with the Titan group as the front line attackers, they outgun everything and armored up the ass so their mission is simply to go the front line and frakk smeg up and be a pain in the ass for the enemy. The space marines are the front line defense there to make sure nothing escape the marauding titans and gets to the supporters and rear echelon.  Then I got a smegload of artillery in support, they are actually the main movers and shakers, well not movers since they are static, but certainly shakers. The titans are actually just a distraction, the artillery is actually what will do most of the damage safely in the back. I threw in a two static heavy anti vehicle and bunch of marines to guard cause I heard that sometimes they might find themselves on the front line. And two static AA cause why not, figured I should not leave them entirely defenseless. Then in the rear echelon we have the headquarters with construction, plenty of heavy AA and artillery and boatloads of supply and a FFD. I don't know why I set up all units with supply trucks and supply infantry. Just for RP I guess, that every group have a truck for it at least, but maybe it works bad?. I hear supply infantry only support their own group, but trucks can go to other trucks? I set it up so the supply infantry have exactly one load for their own group and the rest in trucks so it can ship of to other groups if need be, will that work like that? Well except the titan group, where I just filled it with supply, I guess I could have thrown some space marines in there or something, but I kinda want the battle units in that group to be nearly untouchable, figured they would only die and cause loss in morale.


Have I set it up correctly in order of battle? Everything supporting the Titan group, even the Command Battalion? What should I do with the Command brigade? I cant set it to support two groups. Is it actually necessary?

Now, some things I have been thinking of, part of me wanted to go with Titan based HQ for the titan squad for RP but then I would either have them risk combat or be non combat but waste 3 slots on them  with CAP or something. I was considering going with a space marine infantery HQ but the whole image of a single dude running around on the ground ordering giant titans around seemed a bit funny and silly so I went with static HQ. Any recommendations? I also went with AA and artillery in support and rear echelon only cause it seemed a waste to have in in the front line defense and attack where its likely to see and be destroyed by combat.

The Catalan groups are for planetary defense, they are my garrisons. I like to terraform planets I need to defend into jungle planets, and prefer Jungle Mountain which is what they specialize in. The idea is that they should be basically untouchable as infantry on jungle mountain planets and will frakk invaders due to their specialization. I went with infantry since I can specialize them for jungle mountains, but are vehicles better for defense of non jungle mountains? I might have to design something else for earth that will work better without jungle mountains. You will note that my catalan Front line defenders have some AA and artillery, figured because of how unlikely enemies are to hit anything they would work just fine. Tough, I am wondering if having a battle group is wise? There is something about them loosing their fortification of the front line, so maybe they loose the benefit of being on a jungle planet? Maybe I should go with either two artillery groups in support of the front line defence? Or go with two front line defense Catalans and split the artillery in two halves and have each half supporting each front line defense? And maybe I should design a specialized Catalan headquarters for the rear echelon or does it not matter?

And of course my boarding squads of some CAP cause it have the highest shot per ton ratio. Should I add some logistics to them? I hear combat does not last long enough for that.


Also, I am thinking I might inflate the sizes as my empire grows, so sooner or later the base size is 12500 instead of 3125. Comments? Figured 3125 was good for letting my majors have some action. That reminds me, the command brigade is Colonel level not BG level. Third level that is.


Would love to hear some comments and critique, gonna test it out on some space assholes some robots guarding a planet I found

Edit: A few minor issues in number of troops in various formations. Fixed!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 01:51:04 AM by hostergaard »
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2022, 01:47:38 PM »
So, the first and most important issue you're going to run into - your base formations (3,125 tons) are way too small. You will need millions of tons of ground units to invade an NPR home world, possibly even tens of millions. This is a problem of micromanagement - imagine trying to manage over a thousand of these companies to transport, organize, etc. - and also a problem of commanders as you will struggle to generate enough ground force commanders to effectively command your forces. Do you need a commander for every formation? Well, no... but if you could just build fewer, larger formations and then you would have enough leaders, why wouldn't you do so to get the most benefit from your commanders than you can? Generally in 1.13 and earlier versions you should design your ground unit hierarchy based on your commanders (i.e., 3:1 ratio of ranks if you use auto-promotions). In 2.0 and future versions we will have on-demand promotions and you can do whatever you want.

I generally recommend formations in the 10,000-25,000 ton range depending on your roleplay and other factors. 15,000 and 20,000 ton breakpoints both work well as long as you adjust your transport capacities accordingly, and I personally like 12,500 tons as you can fit two units into 25,000 tons of transport space and it matches the size of old VB6 brigades which is fun.

About the actual ground units:

Code: [Select]
Artillery Company
Transport Size: 3,121 tons
Build Cost: 189.9 BP
2x HQ Emplacment Company
40x Artillery Emplacement Defender Class
2x AA Emplacement Cerub Class
8x Resupply Infantry
1x Supply Truck
2x Anti Vehicle Emplacement Fortress Class
34x Space Marine

Using 2x HQs is not really worth doing. It does not confer any net bonus for commander survivability (if you math it out, commander survivability decreases albeit very slightly).

There is no mechanical benefit to using front-line weapons (PW, MAV, etc.) in a support or rear echelon formation, as they will be unable to fire. No, they do not fire in defense if the formation is attacked, there is no provision in the ground combat rules for such return fire. If you want them for RP reasons that's fine, just be aware that they contribute nothing.

If you are playing a single-player campaign, note that NPRs do not use ground support fighters, so AA weapons are unnecessary except for RP reasons. Personally, I use them anyways, but only for RP reasons.

There isn't any good reason to use both INF and LVH supply units in the same formation. I will make more notes about the supply mechanics below but I would pick one or the other. If your artillery formations are also used for mid-level HQs then having both types could be okay (but still see below).

Boarding Space Marines
These look fine, although you only need one type of formation. Note that there's not really any reason to organize boarding marines into a command hierarchy, so you don't need separate HQ and line platoons for instance.

Catalan Companies
These look fine, just undersized and with the same issues I mentioned under the artillery company about the HQ and supply elements. I don't see any purpose in having two different formations here so I would recommend just picking one to simplify logistics/micromanagement.

Command Brigade
Same comments as for the artillery company.

A word about supply logistics: There are two ways to do it, and both work differently and have different pros/cons (with one pretty clearly superior at present):
  • INF Logistics: These do not automatically resupply subordinate formations in a hierarchy. However, if you include INF+LOG units in every formation, they can reinforce from rear area supply dumps using the Unit Series/Replacement functionality added in 1.12 as units are lost or consumed during combat. This is significantly more BP-efficient than LVH logistics, at a cost of 1.0 BP per 500 GSP, so the only real downside is that some amount of your front line formations (5-10% usually) will be composed of these noncombat units, which isn't much of a problem.
  • LVH Logistics: These will automatically resupply subordinate formations in a hierarchy, and take priority over organic resupply (i.e., if a formation can draw supply from a HQ formation with LVH+LOG, it will do so even if it has its own logistics units as well). However, due to the size and armor of the LVH type, the cost is 2.48 BP per 500 GSP so it is hugely inefficient to use LVH logistics. Prior to 1.12, LVH were necessary for large forces just due to the micromanagement of INF logistics; however, since Unit Series/Replacement was added in 1.12 INF logistics are equally easy to use, so there is no upside to LVH logistics.
Because of this, in my own DB I modify the ground unit components so that LVH logistics provide 1000 GSP per unit rather than 500, which is a much better balance. However, for the purposes of this thread my point is (1) to recommend using only INF or LVH logistics, not both, or to use INF logistics in combat formations and LVH in rear areas formations but not to mix both types for frontline formations; and (2) to recommend the use of INF logistics if you care about the optimal method.

Quote
So the overall strategy here is when invading planets I go with the Titan group as the front line attackers, they outgun everything and armored up the ass so their mission is simply to go the front line and frakk smeg up and be a pain in the ass for the enemy. The space marines are the front line defense there to make sure nothing escape the marauding titans and gets to the supporters and rear echelon.

This is a nice headcanon, but not really how the actual ground combat mechanics work in Aurora. Aurora has no real concept of units escaping, flanking, etc. aside from changing the echelon/position (front/support/rear) of a formation which cannot be affected by combat (it is just choosing from the drop-down menu and happens instantly). There are breakthroughs in some cases, but these represent basically an additional attack role by some formations, not a tactical flanking attack (hence, no defensive fire if an artillery company is attacked).

In general, it is best to think of Aurora ground combat as operational rather than tactical. You can of course imagine whatever you like tactically, but the mechanics are purely operational - Formation A fires at Formation B and does damage, combat phase over. I emphasize this mainly because I often see players design their forces based on what they imagine could happen, rather than what actually can or will happen.

Quote
Then I got a smegload of artillery in support, they are actually the main movers and shakers, well not movers since they are static, but certainly static. The titans are actually just a distraction, the artillery is actually what will do most of the damage safely in the back.

This is...true, but a huge waste of the Titans. Artillery are, frankly, underpowered in Aurora due to the mechanics as you don't have a WWI situation where the infantry hide behind fortifications while the artillery bombs them, in Aurora all the formations engage every round if they are able which means front line formations deal a lot of damage. The advantage of artillery is that you can hide its heavy firepower behind the front line so it will not be targeted, so artillery is strong not because it is deadly but because it is hard to target/kill and can therefore last for a long time while the infantry and tanks die. Point being, it is beneficial for you to make your front line units strong as well and not rely on artillery to do all the work.

The Titans themselves are...really bad. UHV+4xSHAV is bad. The SHAV will rarely be necessary, as NPR armies tend to be infantry-heavy, and even if the enemy does deploy super-heavy armor you have no way to control what your Titans shoot at - a lot of those very expensive SHAV shots will be used to massively overkill a basic unarmored rifleman instead of an enemy super-heavy tank. And SHAV is expensive, not only in size (which limits how many Titans you can bring per ton or BP) but also in supply usage (81 GSP per ten shots!!!). It would be much, much, much, much better to use CAP, HCAP, or some flavor of autocannon as the main weapon and use these to mow down infantry. Then you can have artillery and a limited number of anti-tank weapons which can eliminate enemy heavy armor which is left over.

As an aside, "Static" doesn't mean fixed fortifications, it just means something heavier and not mechanized. For example, STA+MB can represent a towed artillery piece. This is a common misconception.

Quote
Have I set it up correctly in order of battle? Everything supporting the Titan group, even the Command Battalion? What should I do with the Command brigade? I cant set it to support two groups. Is it actually necessary?

I think it looks fine. It's more common to see the artillery included in the command formation with 3x subordinate line formations but that's certainly not a requirement.

One formation can only support one other formation. This is not a problem, either way the full weight of fire will be thrown downrange, it only affects targeting which is at large scale unimportant. Usually I would have my artillery support the most powerful offensive unit in the formation, to maximize the chance of a breakthrough.

Quote
Now, some things I have been thinking of, part of me wanted to go with Titan based HQ for the titan squad for RP but then I would either have them risk combat or be non combat but waste 3 slots on them  with CAP or something. I was considering going with a space marine infantery HQ but the whole image of a single dude running around on the ground ordering giant titans around seemed a bit funny and silly so I went with static HQ. Any recommendations? I also went with AA and artillery in support and rear echelon only cause it seemed a waste to have in in the front line defense and attack where its likely to see and be destroyed by combat.

For the Titan HQ, either is fine.

I usually use Static HQ rather than Infantry, because for +12 tons you gain 3x HP which means 9x improvement in surviving any hits from smaller arms fire. Note that armor is rarely useful for Static HQs as it's not very cost-effective on the grand scale of things, since HQs are so much more expensive than regular units especially above HQ50.

Quote
The Catalan groups are for planetary defense, they are my garrisons. I like to terraform planets I need to defend into jungle planets, and prefer Jungle Mountain which is what they specialize in. The idea is that they should be basically untouchable as infantry on jungle mountain planets and will frakk invaders due to their specialization. I went with infantry since I can specialize them for jungle mountains, but are vehicles better for defense of non jungle mountains? I might have to design something else for earth that will work better without jungle mountains. You will note that my catalan Front line defenders have some AA and artillery, figured because of how unlikely enemies are to hit anything they would work just fine. Tough, I am wondering if having a battle group is wise? There is something about them loosing their fortification of the front line, so maybe they loose the benefit of being on a jungle planet? Maybe I should go with either two artillery groups in support of the front line defence? Or go with two front line defense Catalans and split the artillery in two halves and have each half supporting each front line defense? And maybe I should design a specialized Catalan headquarters for the rear echelon or does it not matter?

In general, INF/STA are the best for defense and vehicles are the best for offense (infantry is okay for offense as well). This is because INF/STA can fortify to the maximum level which is critical for the defender's advantage in combat. For offense, you will not have fortification in most cases, so vehicles are optimal for their evasion, heavy armor, and breakthrough ability. Note that Front Line Attack position gives up any fortification benefit in exchange for the ability to cause breakthroughs, while Front Line Defense position allows fortification but not breakthrough (this is the only difference - units in either Front Line position will fire at enemy units equally well otherwise).

Quote
And of course my boarding squads of some CAP cause it have the highest shot per ton ratio. Should I add some logistics to them? I hear combat does not last long enough for that.

No, because boarding combat has special rules and supply is not consumed at all.
 
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Offline Tikigod

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2022, 02:26:23 PM »
Yeah, what I tend to do now for micromanagement sanity sake but to still make ground troop sizes fit to some kind of sensible convention for RP-purposes is to make singular larger formations but then name my units to represent squads, exception is infantry units and Large+ Vehicles which represent individual soldiers.

So my battalions would look something like:

Code: [Select]
Assault Battalion
Transport Size: 16,000 tons
1x HQ 40k
10x Long Range Artillery Squad (So roughly simulating 100 soldiers)
<Rest filled with supply light vehicles and construction vehicles)

Then each Battalion will have 3 companies of 8k tons might look something like:

Code: [Select]
Artillery Company
Transport Size: 8,000 tons
1x HQ 8k
5x Heavy Emplacement Artillery Squad (Approx 50 soldiers)
5x Long Range Emplacement Artillery Squad (Approx 50 soldiers)
<Enough infantry supply units for 4-5 rounds, small number of construction vehicles, any left over to hit the 8k target is filled with light infantry>

Code: [Select]
Heavy Infantry Assault Company
Transport Size: 8,000 tons
1x HQ 8k
100x Heavy Infantry
80x  Anti-Vehicle Infantry
<Enough infantry supply units for 4-5 rounds, any left over size filled with what fits the theme>


Code: [Select]
Armoured Assault Company
Transport Size: 8,000 tons
1x HQ 8k
10x Heavy Anti-Armor Mech
15x Light Anti-Armor Mech Squad (Approx 150 soldiers/units)
5x Medium Anti-Armor Mech Squad (Approx 50 soldiers/units)
<Rest filled with 4-5 rounds of supplies>



So in total each Battalion approximates around 600-650 combat troops, then a additional 100-150 bodies or so to represent managing support/logistics assets with a total transport requirement of 40,000 tons which can easily fit into a singular troop transport.

(For assault formations at least. Garrison formations introduce construction teams on the company level and scale down combat troops)


It's not a perfect scale but after dozens upon dozens of campaigns, tech upgrades and managing larger armies it's one that allows me to remain sane and not bogged down with micromanaging to much organisation structure.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 02:32:54 PM by Tikigod »
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2022, 04:32:30 AM »
I generally make my units in either regiment or battalion sizes, depending on if it is the regular army, garrisons or elite troops. So regular army are pretty much regimental in strength... I will need to put some regimental support units in the larger HQ structure, such as artillery.

I find that breaking units down to company level just become very tedious very fast, even at battalion level I often find it tedious to some degree, but I also often play multiple factions and doing this for four five or more factions in a game can just be insane... ;)

If the overall unit strength is a Brigade I use Battalions, it the overall unit size is a division I go with regiments. Some units are just more independent and those can be anything from company to regiment sized, such as marines or colonial garrisons.
 

Offline Aloriel

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2022, 12:09:59 PM »
What size are you calling a regiment or battalion, Jorgen? I suspect that my regiments are different in size to other people's.
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2022, 06:54:21 PM »
What size are you calling a regiment or battalion, Jorgen? I suspect that my regiments are different in size to other people's.

I would say roughly equivalent to real life Battalion and Regiments, otherwise I would not state that as most people know roughly what size such forces are. A regiment would be about 1-2000 personnel and battalions about 400-1000 personnel. I envision that the combat units in my games follow the same pattern as real life formations as they are the size they are for a reason.
 

Offline Aloriel

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2022, 07:28:49 PM »
I understand personnel sizes for battalions and the like, but I am not talking about that. I am asking about tonnage. The reason I ask is because the tonnage of a VEH (or worse HVH) is considerable compared to infantry. If you design a company to be 8000 tons, you can only squeeze so many tanks in there, even if your PW infantry can meet a company's personnel size. This would defeat the personnel size head canon even if you assume 10 soldiers per VEH (which are commonly 80+ tons vs PW infantry being 5 tons).

Do you custom build your HQ tonnage to have similar personnel quantities when it comes to vehicles?

The OP seems to use 8000 tons for a company, which seems reasonable. What about others?
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Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2022, 08:43:47 PM »
Keep in mind there's about 5? 10? Rounds of combat supply included.
 

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2022, 12:18:38 AM »
I always imagined that vehicles had both combat staff (e.g. drivers, gunners) and non-combat staff (e.g. mechanics, the-guy-who-polishes-all-the-statues-on-the-Baneblade) included in their tonnage. Similar to how modern fighter jets have 1 or 2 flight crew and potentially dozens of ground crew.
 
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Offline hostergaard (OP)

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2022, 02:29:08 AM »
...

Thanks for this excellent and detailed response. Yeah, I tested the squad against a planet with a small group of centurions and whatnot guarding it and my titans certainly completely obliterated anything they met, it just got deleted from existence. I played this game for near a decade but funnily enough never really got around to ground combat. I lack the experience to evaluate how common various enemies are, how heavily armored they are and so on.

Would changing the titans to 3xHCAP and a autocannon work well? Or should I just go full HCAP and have a single unit or two of Emperor titans to deal with heavy armor? I am not totally sure how armor works, does it work like ship where it slowly stripped away, or is it, either you have enough armor penetration to get trough the armor or you don't and your units can do nothing? Or is more of a percentage chance thing? Its kinda important since if its a all or nothing thing then I need to have something that can penetrate any armor I meet. If its a strip away thing or percentage chance. Well, then I can just use the most efficient thing and go for volume of fire instead. And what is the heaviest armor I am likely to meet anyway?

Also, I don't think I fully understand how supply works, does the entire unit just vanish after their supply points are spent? And if I do the INF thing, how do I do that? set it to support and replace? It seems that the vehicle supply is not completely pointless?

And yeah, I guess I will upscale the unit standard to 12,500 I suppose and maybe even further to 50 000 if it proves neccesary. I will probably keep a few smaller formation for the purpose of small fast ships dropping a vanguard on planets that have a lot of STO.

I went with the two Catalans to have one for front line attack and one for defense, but maybe having attacking units while defending a planet is pointless?


I am gonna go work out some better units, and post them so other can be inspired. I want to work out something that is easy to understand and replicate, have maybe a small RP value and also efficient.


...

Thanks for your examples, I will take them into consideration too!
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 02:49:08 AM by hostergaard »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2022, 06:56:13 AM »
3xHCAP and 1xMAC would work wonders. Remember that actual armour depends on their general armour rating as well as their unit class.

Supply unit vanishes when its supplies are consumed - in a sense, the combat units consume the supply units. But it's not a binary thing, there's a chance that a supply unit survives.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2022, 08:37:59 AM »
Would changing the titans to 3xHCAP and a autocannon work well? Or should I just go full HCAP and have a single unit or two of Emperor titans to deal with heavy armor?


Either approach is fine. As long as the overall balance of firepower is a suitable match for your opponent you can divide weapons among units however you like. One advantage of separate unit types is that you can drop 4xHCAP Titans in the initial wave of landings, gain intelligence on the enemy, and then choose what following waves look like based on that intelligence.

Quote
I am not totally sure how armor works, does it work like ship where it slowly stripped away, or is it, either you have enough armor penetration to get trough the armor or you don't and your units can do nothing? Or is more of a percentage chance thing? Its kinda important since if its a all or nothing thing then I need to have something that can penetrate any armor I meet. If its a strip away thing or percentage chance. Well, then I can just use the most efficient thing and go for volume of fire instead. And what is the heaviest armor I am likely to meet anyway?

Both armor and HP work on a quadratic scale, that is, the chance of penetrating armor is (Piercing / Armor)^2 and if you penetrate then you have a chance of killing the unit based on (Attack / Hitpoints)^2. Since attack/piercing and hitpoints/armor both depend on the same racial tech level, this means technology has roughly a fourth-power effect on combat effectiveness, making tech level a dominant consideration.

In my experience you're not likely to meet better than medium armor (4*tech level), which is why MAC/HAC are actually quite good since they have a reasonable chance to penetrate and still have 3x shots against infantry so are good in both cases. However with high-tech NPRs or spoilers you may run into something unexpected.

Quote
Also, I don't think I fully understand how supply works, does the entire unit just vanish after their supply points are spent?

Yes.

Quote
And if I do the INF thing, how do I do that? set it to support and replace? It seems that the vehicle supply is not completely pointless?

Use the unit series replacement features added in 1.12 check the changelog for that version if you're not sure how to do this). Unit replacement works on a body/colony basis, so your replacement formations can be out of the hierarchy and just chilling in the rear echelon for maximum safety.

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And yeah, I guess I will upscale the unit standard to 12,500 I suppose and maybe even further to 50 000 if it proves neccesary. I will probably keep a few smaller formation for the purpose of small fast ships dropping a vanguard on planets that have a lot of STO.

Note that you need to have transports capable of transporting your base formation size. If you want to use a base size of 50,000, any transports with less than that, e.g., 25,000 tons capacity, will not be able to transport those formations. Since 25,000 tons is a pretty standard transport size (for interbuild with freighter classes), I usually wouldn't recommend a base formation size larger than 25,000 tons.

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I went with the two Catalans to have one for front line attack and one for defense, but maybe having attacking units while defending a planet is pointless?

It's not pointless, because breakthroughs can be very effective, but I would probably have them be in defensive stance to benefit from fortification. I would only switch to Front Line Attack stance when invading a planet, as you will not have any fortification in that case so the evasion + breakthrough mechanics will give more immediate benefit.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2022, 10:19:30 AM »
I always imagined that vehicles had both combat staff (e.g. drivers, gunners) and non-combat staff (e.g. mechanics, the-guy-who-polishes-all-the-statues-on-the-Baneblade) included in their tonnage. Similar to how modern fighter jets have 1 or 2 flight crew and potentially dozens of ground crew.

Yes... this is how I calculate the numbers in my units... allot of people in military units is not even combat personnel. Every soldier and vehicle need support as well, so the numbers I calculate for "personnel" is not just the number of soldiers. Vehicle obviously include mechanics, crew and support of that crew. Support units sort of also represent crew, so they are part of the military organisation. In general I include some supplies in all units as then count that as the support staff of the units.

A light vehicle would probably be at least five people including the crew, heavier vehicle a few more... after this I can get the true personnel in my formations including the combat personnel.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2022, 10:38:45 AM »
I understand personnel sizes for battalions and the like, but I am not talking about that. I am asking about tonnage. The reason I ask is because the tonnage of a VEH (or worse HVH) is considerable compared to infantry. If you design a company to be 8000 tons, you can only squeeze so many tanks in there, even if your PW infantry can meet a company's personnel size. This would defeat the personnel size head canon even if you assume 10 soldiers per VEH (which are commonly 80+ tons vs PW infantry being 5 tons).

Do you custom build your HQ tonnage to have similar personnel quantities when it comes to vehicles?

The OP seems to use 8000 tons for a company, which seems reasonable. What about others?

This really depends... but this is more role-play that being optimal in my games. I just build the units the way they look good and then I design a regiment, battalion HQ that fits the needs. So most formations will not always fill up their HQ entirely... this also give me opportunity to add extra units into them based on needs later on. I simply don't find the need to have everything fit a certain amount of tons and you really don't need to do that.

The only units that I will need to take some care to design into a certain space are my marine forces as they are suppose to be permanently stationed on their assault carriers. These are the elites of the elites and very expensive forces in comparison with the regular army. All other forces are normally stationed on planets and ferried in normal cheap troop carriers, their size is almost irrelevant and don't have any dedicated troop carriers.

If there is any invasion plans of any sizeable planet I likely will have to build carriers for that specific purpose, so the carriers will be tailored after the troops not the other way around.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Simple Ground Unit Design with all ground unit tech
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2022, 10:47:57 AM »
When playing multi-faction games really heavy vehicles is quite tricky to use... they generally pay WAY too much for survivability for the firepower they put out. When they are up against light units that have some heavy anti-tank weapons sprinkled about they will struggle, they must be supported by lighter forces as well, most of the time. Just a bunch of cheap Static Heavy Anti-vehicle units will wreak havoc on any super heavy vehicles in the opposing side, especially of they have a small advantage in weapon tech over your armour tech. Plasma weapons also seem common in my games for the cheap ground weapon tech advantage, so heavy vehicle can be of dubious use if too numerous.