Author Topic: C# Suggestions  (Read 272851 times)

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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #840 on: July 15, 2020, 09:47:03 PM »
Since people were mentioning 'communication module' and such to inflate missile sizes, maybe its worth mentioning the idea of guidance sections.  It would probably be reasonable to say that for a given engagement range (and perhaps agility also?) a certain size of guidance section is required.  This would then cause smaller missiles to be lower performance from a range/agility perspective due to the added cost of the guidance section.

Consider this cross section of the hellfire to see how much room the guidance stuff takes up in current times (cone shaped bit is the actual warhead, everything in front is guidance).

 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #841 on: July 15, 2020, 10:20:37 PM »
Point of contention... IIRC the Hellfire can be used for multiple forms of attack, no? Top down or side on IIRC. That would need substantially more guidance than a typical missile. And what of the Maverick? It was TV Guided, and thus would need far less.

I don't think requiring guidance should be a thing simply on account of ships in Aurora already possessing M-FCS in proportion to the range and size of target. A rudimentary sensor and/or telemetry would probably be sufficient for a bare bones guidance under the model of Speed and Agility determining the accuracy. You can flash a lot of information to a relatively small storage device, and so long as the missile knows were it is, where it's been and how to use the information provided to it to get where you want it to be, that's enough.

I think there should be additional guidance systems, namely missile mounted FCS to take advantage of missile mounted sensors. I don't like forcing restrictions on the player, doubly so for restrictions which make no sense IRL and more so when all it does is penalize something. Don't nerf the strong, buff the weak... if the buffs don't balance it out then use nerfs. If that doesn't work... ya don goofed and need to pull the system apart and overhaul it.

Or ya would if balance was an issue. Buff the big missiles, as it stands there isn't much of anything they can do that small / medium sized ones can't do better, cheaper or both.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #842 on: July 15, 2020, 10:46:39 PM »
Hellfire is about as simple as it gets.

Maverick is actually relatively similar (both TV/infrared have pretty similar sections):


Sadly couldn't find nearly as nice of a cross section image.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #843 on: July 16, 2020, 01:17:25 AM »
Huh, that's pretty interesting. Wonder what those sections actually weigh though...
 

Offline Rince Wind

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #844 on: July 16, 2020, 02:56:41 AM »


Agility based evasion is a bit weird from a missile on missile evasion perspective because it assumes that missiles somehow have the ability to decide to engage in evasive maneuvers. Understand that because of the small detection range of AMMs combined with the relatively large attack range of attack missiles means that missiles will somehow need to evade missile which they don't even know they exist. So such detection would require an onboard missile sensor, passive or active which in turn takes up a large part of the missiles real estate, kind of defeating the point of the exercise.

Mind you this is a realism argument, not a gameplay one. I think from that perspective the missile needs to know that the AMM exists for it to even be able to attempt evasive maneuvers.

You could just say that the missiles flies erraticly to avoid being an easy target. And higher agility allows for better maneuvers/a better threat detection system while still staying on target.
 

Offline Black

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #845 on: July 16, 2020, 03:32:51 AM »
Would it be possible to get option to have Populated Systems in Economics window sorted by Sectors they are part of? They are currently sorted by population and I would like to be able to group them by the Sector.
 
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Offline TMaekler

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #846 on: July 16, 2020, 07:33:03 AM »
Population Growth Modificator: I was thinking about creating a multi faction start on earth with one dummy "United Nations" which holds just most of the population of earth and then some playable nations holding the rest. It would be nice to be able to lower the pop growth value of this dummy nation.
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #847 on: July 16, 2020, 10:12:22 AM »


Agility based evasion is a bit weird from a missile on missile evasion perspective because it assumes that missiles somehow have the ability to decide to engage in evasive maneuvers. Understand that because of the small detection range of AMMs combined with the relatively large attack range of attack missiles means that missiles will somehow need to evade missile which they don't even know they exist. So such detection would require an onboard missile sensor, passive or active which in turn takes up a large part of the missiles real estate, kind of defeating the point of the exercise.

Mind you this is a realism argument, not a gameplay one. I think from that perspective the missile needs to know that the AMM exists for it to even be able to attempt evasive maneuvers.

You could just say that the missiles flies erraticly to avoid being an easy target. And higher agility allows for better maneuvers/a better threat detection system while still staying on target.

This is exactly what "real" missiles do. If you look at the literature on designing control schemes for anti-missile missiles, the key parameters are the off-axis dynamics of the interceptor and target.  In much of the literature, this is assumed to be a ground-launched interceptor and a nuclear reentry vehicle. The reentry vehicle will at some point (either randomly or at a carefully chosen moment depending on the reentry vehicle designer's knowledge of the interceptor's capabilities) perform a evasive maneuver (usually a max acceleration turn, but again the optimal solution depends on what you know about your opponent). The interceptor must then attempt to follow the maneuver; its ability to do so successfully depends on the ratio of off-axis accelerations achievable as well as time delays (primarily actuator lags, but can also include sensor issues).

Agility is thus an abstraction of missile tonnage devoted to off-axis thrusters, sophisticated computers necessary to solve the differential game in real time, and the g-hardening necessary to allow aggressive maneuvers without breaking the missile. And the thing to note is that the effects of this on the interception encounter are symmetric; making the reentry vehicle have a smaller time constant is simply the inverse of making the interceptor have a larger time constant. Thus, a decent model for how agility affects accuracy would be to take the ratio of interceptor and evader agility, rather than the current model of just using the interceptor's agility.

Agility should also affect beam weapon accuracy, but beam weapon accuracy would also need to account for target size for that to really make sense. Size doesn't matter so much for missile hitting things because the lethal radius is generally much larger than the target...it doesn't matter if the target is 2 meters or 3 meters when the missile is lethal if it blows up within 10 km of said target. But a beam weapon needs a direct hit to do anything at all, so a 2 meter cross section is meaningfully more difficult to hit than a 3m cross section would be.

Making smaller ships harder to hit might make beam fighters actually effective, as well as just generally giving a better reason to build small ships. There are economic advantages to smaller vessels, but in terms of performance per ton, bigger is better in Aurora (at least for beam combat; missile range scaling with resolution gives small to mid-size vessels a niche there).
 

Offline skoormit

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #848 on: July 16, 2020, 02:59:18 PM »
Population Growth Modificator: I was thinking about creating a multi faction start on earth with one dummy "United Nations" which holds just most of the population of earth and then some playable nations holding the rest. It would be nice to be able to lower the pop growth value of this dummy nation.

Pop growth rate is already a setting for custom races.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #849 on: July 16, 2020, 05:18:04 PM »
Point of contention... IIRC the Hellfire can be used for multiple forms of attack, no? Top down or side on IIRC. That would need substantially more guidance than a typical missile. And what of the Maverick? It was TV Guided, and thus would need far less.

I don't think requiring guidance should be a thing simply on account of ships in Aurora already possessing M-FCS in proportion to the range and size of target. A rudimentary sensor and/or telemetry would probably be sufficient for a bare bones guidance under the model of Speed and Agility determining the accuracy. You can flash a lot of information to a relatively small storage device, and so long as the missile knows were it is, where it's been and how to use the information provided to it to get where you want it to be, that's enough.

I think there should be additional guidance systems, namely missile mounted FCS to take advantage of missile mounted sensors. I don't like forcing restrictions on the player, doubly so for restrictions which make no sense IRL and more so when all it does is penalize something. Don't nerf the strong, buff the weak... if the buffs don't balance it out then use nerfs. If that doesn't work... ya don goofed and need to pull the system apart and overhaul it.

Or ya would if balance was an issue. Buff the big missiles, as it stands there isn't much of anything they can do that small / medium sized ones can't do better, cheaper or both.

Adding a communications section that scales with range is not "nerfing" small missiles... it is adding a small mechanical part that makes actual sense in my opinion. Missiles need a communication device to receive the information sent by the fire-control. You could make it a flat size as well if you consider the fire-control to make up the part of range. But I think a scaling size would mechanically be better for balance otherwise AMM missiles might get hammered too much. But you could simply make it a 0.25MSP module, but it would then inflate the size of AMM missiles... perhaps not a bad idea though.

As I also mentioned increasing the strength of the warhead technology one step up would perhaps also be needed to keep the missiles at roughly the same power level.

but adding this would make it much harder to swarm point defences with huge numbers of really small missiles... at least if you want them to actually deal any significant damage.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #850 on: July 16, 2020, 05:28:58 PM »
Most missiles do not communicate, they look at something that is painting the target, or they detect the target completely by their own means.  Hence a guidance section usually on the front of the missile.
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #851 on: July 16, 2020, 06:26:50 PM »
Most missiles do not communicate, they look at something that is painting the target, or they detect the target completely by their own means.  Hence a guidance section usually on the front of the missile.

Depends on the purpose of the missile. Short ranged anti-air missiles or ground attack missiles? Sure.

Cruise missiles? Nope. Modern tomahawks have two-way communications for inflight retargeting.

Ditto for the latest versions of the Harpoon (US anti-surface missile).

And the Standard missile series seems to have been designed from the outset for receiving guidance from the launcher (as far as I'm aware, that's the ENTIRE POINT of the so-called "Aegis" system.

There is an entire wikipedia page about "Command Guidance," which is the practice of using a remote platform to provide steering to missiles.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #852 on: July 16, 2020, 10:44:59 PM »
While true, that mainly has to do with the possibility of directing missiles against alternate targets, rather than enhancing their terminal guidance.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #853 on: July 17, 2020, 03:59:59 AM »
While true, that mainly has to do with the possibility of directing missiles against alternate targets, rather than enhancing their terminal guidance.

A target that changes course in Aurora are pretty much the same as guiding the missile on to a new target given the speed of ships versus missiles. Missiles in Aurora often don't even have its own thermal, EM or active targeting systems either so they are effectively blind.
 

Offline esavier

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #854 on: July 17, 2020, 06:07:05 AM »
Can we get medal conditions based on ammount of researched projects?
I would love to give those for my best and most dedicated researchers. . .