Author Topic: C# Suggestions  (Read 272812 times)

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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1890 on: June 25, 2021, 02:14:57 PM »
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you but it seems that you're trying to bring BALANCE to Aurora and that's not going to work :P

Truer words are rarely spoken.  :P

In my view there are two kinds of balance. One is I think what most people think of which is to make every option for everything equally viable in a futile quest to eliminate any and all One True Answer scenarios, which is not only an impossible pursuit but tends to make games feel very overbalanced and bland.

The other, better kind of balance is one which tries to create a useful role for all elements of the gameplay even if some of those roles are relatively niche. This is a much more achievable goal in practice because it really only requires Steve to make everything usable, not powerful. However this does still require some work in some cases, but on the whole I think this is the kind of balance Aurora strives for much to the chagrin perhaps of many players.  :)

In the case of terraformers, I think the core issue is that right now ground-based 'formers are only usable in the technical sense - you can build them and they function - and once 10k RP has been invested into the 'former module and tractor beam techs, ground facilities are inferior in every way except for generating tax money. Primarily this is because they cost 600 BP while orbital 'formers only cost 500 BP a pop, plus a bit more for structural materials and crew quarters.

It is I think important to separate this point from the others. Yes, ground 'formers have a lot of limitations such as requiring population to operate or more shipping capacity to move around. These things are perfectly fine. However, the fact that they are significantly more expensive to construct is a serious problem - while "there will never be a situation where you want less terraforming ability", I will virtually always prefer to spend 500 BP than 600 BP to get the same effective terraforming ability.

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Even if that's not the case and there's a mathematical most efficient way, it doesn't really matter. Because Aurora is all about options and possibilities - if TF facilities are only useful in early game and then might not be used by few/some/many players after that, doesn't mean that they are wasted. It's 100% fine if something isn't viable/efficient throughout the game - we already have this with weapons. There is no need to make any changes here.

I think there is a little bit of a difference between "mathematically most efficient way" and "one way is almost strictly worse than the other AND more expensive by 20% to boot".

I think comparing to ship weapons actually supports the point here. For example, plasma carronades are, let's be honest, generally a third-tier weapon system at best in terms of performance, however they are very cheap to research (partially due to changes made in C# to bring balance!) and still have niche uses such as JP defense and ground unit attack boosting. Early in the game plasma can be a very strong weapon, but later on while it does drop off it retains some good uses. Now if plasma carronades cost more than, say, particle lances(!) we would have a serious balance problem, building plasma ships would be not merely suboptimal but in fact a cripplingly bad decision. Similarly, 10cm railguns are excellent point defense in the early game, while Gauss eventually pulls up even after ~20k+ RPs and only becomes clearly superior for PD after another ~50k RPs. However the railguns remain quite useful even if they are not as good as pure PD due to cheapness of BP and RP as well as being better for volume of anti-ship fire in a close brawl, plus they are better for beam PD fighters due to relatively small size. Basically my point is that while different weapons are more or less powerful in different game eras they all remain viable even in niche roles, no weapon is completely eclipsed by another in nearly every way.

Point being, while it is fine for something to be viable early and then drop off I think it is preferable for that something to be at least worth using in some sense throughout the game if possible, and I support the need to make a change where this can be accomplished without undue work... changing the ground terraforming facilities from even 600 BP to 500 BP I think falls under this category. Orbital modules will still be generally superior but ground facilities can still present a case to be built even after those 10k RP have been spent and a tug fleet constructed.

E: To be clear, I do think all this talk about halving the cost, quintupling the efficiency, or removing the population requirement is several bridges too far. I just don't think a simple adjustment to bring the costs into line between the two options is a bad idea, in fact I think it is a good one.
 
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Offline skoormit

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1891 on: June 25, 2021, 02:22:51 PM »
To be worthwhile
I disagree because all you're proposing here is to increase the mathematical formula for achieving maximum effectiveness vs investment while removing options. I don't want Aurora to become yet another 4X game where there's only one true way to play. We already have Paradox and Matrix for that.

You skipped the rest of my post?
What I am proposing is to alter the cost of one of the two options so that the choice between the two is interesting in and of itself (so that you don't need "roleplay" to justify using one of them).
 
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Offline Blogaugis

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1892 on: June 25, 2021, 03:38:13 PM »
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you but it seems that you're trying to bring BALANCE to Aurora and that's not going to work :P
Probably, it is what the suggestions forum is for, is it not?
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No, you skipped over the rest of my post. I wrote that even in the case that they are phased out, they were useful in early game. But they always remain useful and there is no need to phase them out. If your surveyors find a steady stream of planets to terraform, there will never be a situation where you want less terraforming ability.
But You still phase them out...
Yeah, but I wasted 50Xamount of installations constructed Duranium and 50Xamount of installations Boronide! I gave extra jobs for folks, I guess...
But here's the thing - people and wealth are renewable. Trans-newtonian elements are not.
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Even if that's not the case and there's a mathematical most efficient way, it doesn't really matter. Because Aurora is all about options and possibilities - if TF facilities are only useful in early game and then might not be used by few/some/many players after that, doesn't mean that they are wasted. It's 100% fine if something isn't viable/efficient throughout the game - we already have this with weapons. There is no need to make any changes here.
I'd like options that have each their own strengths and perhaps niches, not 2 options, one of which is superior in every aspect and other is... Just there.
Seriously, how am I supposed to believe that a module, requiring just a 100 people to function, is somewhat on even terms with an installation requiring more resources and 2500 times more people to function?
The only relative advantage is the tax income, but the long-run economic bottleneck is always population
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Only if you do 500M pop default starts. If you do a 7B pop United Earth start, you won't be bottlenecked by population.
I go with 10B start and still prefer modules.
If you remove the population requirement from TFIs, then I might actually use them.
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But then how am I telling a story of maintaining a frontier colony that's desperately trying to terraform their planet?
Is the population requirement necessary for Your story?
To be worthwhile
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I disagree because all you're proposing here is to increase the mathematical formula for achieving maximum effectiveness vs investment while removing options. I don't want Aurora to become yet another 4X game where there's only one true way to play. We already have Paradox and Matrix for that.
What? No, I want actual 2 ways to terraform things, that each have their +'es and -'es. Right now, we have 2 ways to play, with 1 being superior in almost every aspect.
 

Offline RougeNPS

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1893 on: June 25, 2021, 04:05:56 PM »
What would be the viability of adding a module for interdicting jumps?

To explain further: Attaching this module to a ship would temporarily, within the radius of the activated module on the ship prevent/interdict enemy vessels from using jumppoints.

Unless this already exists and i am blind.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1894 on: June 25, 2021, 05:38:00 PM »
 --- So, regarding the ongoing discussion of Terraforming Installations, I think it's important to note that the Ship-Board Modules are basically superior in any situation that isn't terribly contrived. I'll mention Maintenance Modules here to point out that they are NOT superior to the Maintenance Facilities on account of the latter being able to actually produce MSP, while the former cannot. One other thing which might help, on top of the doubled rate, is allowing Planetary Terraformers and Ship-Based Terraformers to work separately, that is on different gases. Flavor wise the arbitrary two things only limit could be fluffed as being imposed by the gravity of the world itself. The C# version's mechanics already indirectly support his theory, since smaller worlds are terraformed faster than larger worlds. Regardless of surface area / gravity being the caused, both are tied together (loosely) and by extension this could help prop up the in-universe justification.

 --- As for making Terraforming Installations not suck, which they totally do and if you disagree with that opinion I would love to hear why... seriously, I love the niche / "bad" stuff and even I avoid these like the plague. Moreso, actually... I sometimes go grocery shopping despite the plague. :P At any rate, I feel that simply doubling the output of a Terraforming Installation would effectively solve the issue.

 --- My reasoning is as such; currently there is no reason mechanically speaking, role-play excluded, to use the Terraforming Installations over the Terraforming Modules. As it was in VB6, the installation is beat out by tugs with Terraforming Stations (which is further buffed in C# by way of Structural Shell) and also beat out by actual proper Terraforming Ships. They have no upside over these two options with the sole exceptions of wealth generation and governor stacking.

 --- Thusly, doubling the output of a Terraforming Installation changes them from being a pure detriment mechanically, or in other words "shooting off your own foot" (though that's an exaggeration, admittedly) into an expensive way to maximize your terraforming effort. If you want the absolute highest output, you'll need to build these and potentially spend the resources to ship them around. They're still the only way to stack governor boni, and likewise they also produce wealth, ergo doubling their output would give you a reason to build these and the freighters to move them, over a ship / station containing 5 terraforming modules.

 --- I compared one Installation to 5 modules on the grounds that one module is 1/5th the mass. However, one Large Cargo Bay requires much less crew than five Terraforming Modules. Likewise, ships don't gain any benefit from the planetary governor and ergo cannot stack boni with their own commanders. By extension, while 5x Modules over a single Installation is still 250% as effective, the freighter used to move said installation is big enough to move plenty of other things and by extension has greater utility than a dedicated ship. The tug / station flavor would still not have this benefit over the freighter, brining the Terraforming Installation from useless to a niche / luxury option to maximize Terraforming Speed.
 
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Offline Kiero

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1895 on: June 26, 2021, 08:25:52 AM »
I would like to see more ways to get a weapon lock, including a passive lock.

So it would be possible to create a missile that will lock to the strongest thermal signature or EM emission.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1896 on: June 26, 2021, 11:42:27 AM »
I would like to see more ways to get a weapon lock, including a passive lock.

So it would be possible to create a missile that will lock to the strongest thermal signature or EM emission.

This is a great idea in general, passive locks could be such that you can use passives to stealthily fire weapons at the cost of targeting freedom. You'll always lock the strongest EM/TM signature and cannot choose to lock smaller ones at the same location as a larger signature. That way you can choose which enemy fleet to target but not specific ships.

Also great for self-guided missiles, you could make missiles that'll prioritize targeting the big EM signature of actives so that you can eliminate the big scouts.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1897 on: June 26, 2021, 12:42:32 PM »
I don't really like that mechanic, it sounds contrived and weird.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1898 on: June 26, 2021, 01:40:00 PM »
I don't really like that mechanic, it sounds contrived and weird.

I cri  :'(
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1899 on: June 26, 2021, 01:48:42 PM »
I would like to see more ways to get a weapon lock, including a passive lock.

So it would be possible to create a missile that will lock to the strongest thermal signature or EM emission.

This is a great idea in general, passive locks could be such that you can use passives to stealthily fire weapons at the cost of targeting freedom. You'll always lock the strongest EM/TM signature and cannot choose to lock smaller ones at the same location as a larger signature. That way you can choose which enemy fleet to target but not specific ships.

Also great for self-guided missiles, you could make missiles that'll prioritize targeting the big EM signature of actives so that you can eliminate the big scouts.
I don't really like that mechanic, it sounds contrived and weird.

I also admittedly do not love the mechanic, as the ability to fight an enemy fleet without active targeting would be to say the least exceptional in Aurora, and likely would be horribly imbalanced.

That said, "Aurora is not balanced"™ and I think this mechanic was in VB6 at least for thermal-seeking missiles, so it is not contrived and arguably not weird either as the heat-seeking missile is not a novel invention even in the real world.

This could lead to an interesting countermeasure at least for player fleets where a missile with a higher thermal signature than the largest ship in a fleet could be launched to divert the heat-seeking missiles, which would be extremely hilarious.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1900 on: June 26, 2021, 05:50:58 PM »
Will it not at least be worth considering TFI in 1.14 where you potentially have raiders that come and blow your terraforming stations up (or captures them perhaps). Ground based facilities might be easier to defend with that in mind.

Otherwise I agree... I would like for TFI to be the most viable on decently low colony cost planets and that terraforming stations are mainly for really high cost planets or if population is at a premium, but overall terraforming modules should be more expensive to build.
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1901 on: June 27, 2021, 03:56:18 PM »
Getting back to the modules versus installations debate about terraformers - There is 1 thing I noticed about modules:
They require crew. 100 per module. Since, I typically design an entire station, with 10 of these modules, I get a crew requirement above 1000...
And it may not be a problem late game, when you have plenty of academies and populations... But it can be early game - building just 4 of such stations depletes your crewmen and junior officers fast. And subsequently, grade goes down...

So there is yet another hidden advantage to the installations - they don't "eat up" your crew...

Regardless, my point still stands - there has to be more advantages to the installations to make them feasible.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1902 on: June 27, 2021, 04:13:42 PM »
Getting back to the modules versus installations debate about terraformers - There is 1 thing I noticed about modules:
They require crew. 100 per module. Since, I typically design an entire station, with 10 of these modules, I get a crew requirement above 1000...
And it may not be a problem late game, when you have plenty of academies and populations... But it can be early game - building just 4 of such stations depletes your crewmen and junior officers fast. And subsequently, grade goes down...

So there is yet another hidden advantage to the installations - they don't "eat up" your crew...

Regardless, my point still stands - there has to be more advantages to the installations to make them feasible.

Except that the crew count is irrelevant because there is a button labelled "conscript" which when checked, makes such stations not take crew from the officer/crew pool. Also for completeness, crew grade does not improve the productivity of modules so gameplay wise there is no reason not to check a terraformer as a conscript ship.

The only crew based argument is the CO officer, but that's also relevant because you just set the officer priority to 0, this means that ground based installations just have the governor bonus advantage, which is more than closed by the cost gap between ground and orbital.
 
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1903 on: June 27, 2021, 05:11:05 PM »
Yeah you don't need navy grade crew for the terraformers so its not the same.
 
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Offline db48x

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1904 on: June 28, 2021, 05:49:25 AM »
Forgive me if this is a duplicate; I have about 20 pages of suggestions to catch up on!

An NPR generated when I was playing on 260% difficulty 80 years in.

I get that the size of NPR populations is dependent on the above factors in order to give some sort of challenge.
But what just happened is that the game spawned 30bn aliens on a world that can only accommodate 8bn population (they have 100% population density).

I think what should happen is either:
- Game respects the carrying capacity of the body
- Game creates designs of colossal orbital habitats in such a way that the carrying capacity + orbital capacity is sufficient to house the population.


EDIT: I should also mention this world had dangerous levels of CO2 as well which I had to SM replace with aesthesium.
EDIT: For the problem I pointed out in the edit, the game should, once it's decided that the planet in question will have an NPR, modify the body to actually have 0 cost for whatever alien it's decided to put there.

SJW: Max pop for NPR will now be the capacity of the planet. Also fixed dangerous gas problem.

This was a reasonable bug fix, but I suggest that this would be a nice place for future enhancement. If the population would be larger than the planetary capacity, then the game could give the new NPR extra colonies on nearby planets. Find some planets with reasonable colony costs and give them infrastructure and facilities. If they have minerals, move a few mines to them, otherwise financial centers or research labs or something. This should give a new NPR a lot more life.
 
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