Author Topic: C# Suggestions  (Read 272793 times)

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Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2265 on: December 06, 2021, 08:06:02 PM »
--- Well, for one we already have them in the ship design window. Why are we throwing that out? I can launch GSFs from outside of orbit, so they are space faring ships. When not on Ground Support Missions, they can be fired on by STOs and ships... like ships. They can attack other GSFs when on CAP, like ship to ship combat. They use a form of missile as a weapon, which uses ship mechanics. All this stuff already exists, why are we gutting it? For what? Why not use it instead of throw it away?

This the point I'm trying to get at - just because we already have something doesn't mean we should keep it. I am asking - if we did not already have GSFs as a space-faring ship type, what reason would we have to make them so. If there is no good reason (and that's an open question), then there is no reason to keep them this way either - if a better alternative exists, which I believe there does.

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--- What do we lose? Well for one thing, we can't deploy our GSFs from outside of STO range, so now you have to bring the carrier in range or kill of the STOs before you deploy any GSFs. You cannot have a design for an assault ship that can tank and a design, potentially Commerical, which hangs back and deploys fighters. For another, an FFD is only 60 Tons of Ground Unit. You can quite easily stuff several of those into a fighter's Troop Transport Bays AND fit Fighter Pod Bays. They need to be a ship for all of that to work... or perhaps a better way to say it would be, it needs a bigger re-write to NOT need that to work.

This is a fair point. From a mechanical perspective, I could argue that in this situation the correct way to deploy would be to use a transport bay (normal, or a new 'hangar' type) the same way as one would otherwise use an armored assault drop transport to deliver troops to the ground (and we do need to do this - while GSFs can do missions without ground units to provide FFD, I believe only the direct ground support mission precludes STO fire - someone else can confirm?). Flavor-wise, however, this does seem to be a small loss since the flavor of a carrier-to-ground assault is certainly interesting (otherwise no one would care about GSFs). I don't have a good answer for that right now, admittedly.

However, in an effort to speak positively for my own opinion, I do think there are a lot of flavor gains from converting air units to function as ground units instead of ships. One of my personal big motivations is that right now, we don't have a good unit class to model things like the US Army combat aviation brigades (and similar formations in other armies), or for that matter the entire US Air Force even if one could argue that an air force might be obsolete in the TN Space Era (arguable, IMO!). Particularly for conventional starts this is a piece of flavor I miss and have no good way to model to my satisfaction, since LVH, VEH, etc. are vulnerable to entirely the wrong types of weapons and not vulnerable to the AA weapons a helicopter or air fighter should be. Droll's examples of the scaling problems are also important IMO, a proper air fighter force really should be 100s to 1,000s of planes, not several dozen arranged into a few squadrons.

I do also think this kind of change would be very helpful for NPRs since they can use a new ground unit type much more easily than teaching them how to use fighters. The AA components would then become much more relevant for the player against NPRs, which I think is a huge flavor win as currently AA weapons are just dead weight against NPRs yet any modern army deploys many SAMs, etc.

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--- I could say more, but frankly at this point I'm one trying to argue. I feel like no one is listening and I'm getting hot under the collar. Whether no is listening or is has become irrelevant, I need to go chill.

Hopefully now we are all seeing each other's sides more clearly.  :)
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2266 on: December 07, 2021, 12:17:27 AM »
This the point I'm trying to get at - just because we already have something doesn't mean we should keep it. I am asking - if we did not already have GSFs as a space-faring ship type, what reason would we have to make them so. If there is no good reason (and that's an open question), then there is no reason to keep them this way either - if a better alternative exists, which I believe there does.

I think I've written this before and at risk of repeating the previous discussion IMO the main ( possibly only? ) reason to keep the hybrid space/atmospheric fighters around is to support Sci Fi stories and universes which more often than not have space capable fighters support ground units in combat.


Another question that might be interesting to asking is, would there be room for both?

In reality just because it's possible to design a space capable hybrid fighter doesn't mean it's not also possible to design cheaper models that are more numerous but only capable of atmospheric flight and acts more like ground units. This new type could also include helicopters and other vehicles faster and more agile than light vehicles like say star wars speeder bikes, hoverbikes and various tiltrotors. Potentially it could also be split up in different mechanics for long range versions ( support ) and direct fire ( normal ground unit ) depending on what you arm them with.

It would be a bit messy/tricky to code when they start interact with hybrid fighters and AA for sure so might take alot of effort to get it right, that's the main downside I can imagine, but on the other hand completely rewriting current fighter mechanics is no simple task either.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 12:24:54 AM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline smoelf

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2267 on: December 07, 2021, 04:24:23 AM »
So...we have a need for hundreds, even thousands of specialized ships which are only usable for ground combat. At that scale it is completely impractical to populate them with commanders for each ship, so we either just don't do this or we introduce a new mechanic just for GSFs to have commanders on a squadron basis instead. As far as ship design, AFAIK the speed of GSFs has no bearing on combat, so the only things that matter are the weapon and armor (and the latter is very much arguable as others have shown).

So we have a "ship" type which is only usable in ground combat, needs to be built by the hundreds, is too small and numerous for individual commanders, and has no relevant design parameters aside from the weapon and armor. At that point, this perfectly describes a ground unit class. Why not just take the logic to its conclusion, in the process using mechanics which are 90% preexisting to simplify the implementation for Steve?

I'm a bit late to the discussion, but just wanted to comment that speed does affect combat. For ground-based AA-fire: "The chance to hit is (10% x (Tracking Speed / Aircraft Speed) x (Morale / 100)) / Environment Modifier." (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=C-Ground_Combat#Ground-based_AA_Fire). I'm currently preparing to invade the Rahkas with 200 fighters where I have increased the speed from 9.500 to 15.000 and reduced the number of fighter pods from 2 to 1 to see if the survivability outweighs the lower fire power.

I also disagree that the commander issue is really a problem. You can set the priority of the fighters really low, so they fill up last. Sure, you won't get the bonus of a commander, but I don't get that anyway now because I have way too many fighters for my commander production. I think we would also need to see how the latest change to commander production and assignment affects this before making any drastic changes.

For me, all I really need is a way to auto-assign GSF to units with FFD's OR implement a sub-fleet system for the ground combat window and assign by dragging a sub-fleet. I like the ability to design various types of GSF's and while I wouldn't oppose a rework of the system, I would really want it to still offer the possibilities and flexibility of the current system, where you have a series of interesting choices regarding engine power, size of fighter pod, number of fighter pods etc.

I used it rather effectively against Rahkas, where the existence of 100 fighters significantly reduced my ground unit losses. Because I was behind in tech, I could design some fighter pods manually that exceeded the armor and hitpoints of the enemy and thus ensure kills that my ground units could not get. (See also: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11545.msg156253#msg156253)

--- Well, for one we already have them in the ship design window. Why are we throwing that out? I can launch GSFs from outside of orbit, so they are space faring ships. When not on Ground Support Missions, they can be fired on by STOs and ships... like ships. They can attack other GSFs when on CAP, like ship to ship combat. They use a form of missile as a weapon, which uses ship mechanics. All this stuff already exists, why are we gutting it? For what? Why not use it instead of throw it away?

This the point I'm trying to get at - just because we already have something doesn't mean we should keep it. I am asking - if we did not already have GSFs as a space-faring ship type, what reason would we have to make them so. If there is no good reason (and that's an open question), then there is no reason to keep them this way either - if a better alternative exists, which I believe there does.

The system has been designed to that you can repurpose 'real' fighters to GSF's by loading fighter pods into box launchers. That current interaction between space fighters and GSF's would be lost entirely if it was reworked to a pure ground unit system. Now, I haven't done this yet, but I imagine there is a reason behind it if Steve made sure that fighter pods could be loaded into box launchers.

This is all with the caveat that I haven't yet invaded an NPR, but the increase in scale of production and assignment from spoiler races to NPR is going to be the same for ground units and GSF's.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 04:52:29 AM by smoelf »
 

Offline KriegsMeister

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2268 on: December 07, 2021, 05:08:02 AM »
If you compare the tonnage of modern aircraft to our current in-game fighters, there is a massive lopsidedness.  Even the smallest built aurora fighter is going to be well over a 100Tons since it's very difficult until endgame tech to make an even usable design less than that.  This would put even the smallest fighters in the strategic bomber weight class in today's world, a B-52 stratofortress weighs ~200T with payload (and yes I know Aurora tonnage isn't literal gross mass, but it's close enough).

To represent a modern/futuristic atmospheric fighter or attack helicopter would need to be well below that 100 Ton mark and would ve better as a build able "ground" unit, for example an AH-64 apache sits around ~10 T and an F-35 Lightning II at ~30 T combat loads.

I would keep our space borne craft, but remove the fighter pods, and just use normal missiles and beam weapons as strategic strike craft.  Could maybe use engineless all warhead designs as cheap atmospheric bombs.  Then let's add air units that utilize ground weapons to represent the air superiority fighters and attack heli's. 

I would also add, they should not be able to use vehicle armor and would use the current racial infantry armor, since even the largest aircraft with the strongest engines can only carry a very small bit of armor plate to protect the cockpit and maybe the engines.  This makes air targets hard to hit but easy to destroy as a decent game design balance.
 

Offline cdrtwohy

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2269 on: December 07, 2021, 05:29:47 AM »
Personally it think fighters in general need a redo for a myriad of reasons starting with the fact that to be really useful (IMHO) you need ton of them meaning a ton of micro, add the fact that our officer corps doesn't fully represent jr officers being able to "command" ships in a concrete way ( technically we can say unassigned ships are commanded by Jr officers), Fighters are too big in size and crew, have to long of a deployment time and require a dedicated warship to carry them that needs a shipyard to build that would be better used for other offensive warships .

I personally don't think even with an RP element that Fighters are worth the investment based on the amount of hassle that they are. in fact I only build them for RP reasons as cheap PPV cover in the Core systems but with the pirate faction coming in 2.0 that might have to stop
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2270 on: December 07, 2021, 08:19:47 AM »
I think the general consensus is that ground support fighters are OK in terms of balance but is made unusable because of micromanagement issues, they simply take up too much time to deploy in the numbers you generally would need to have them.
 

Offline Scout1

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2271 on: December 07, 2021, 08:33:51 AM »
Quote from: Jorgen_CAB link=topic=10640. msg157575#msg157575 date=1638886787
I think the general consensus is that ground support fighters are OK in terms of balance but is made unusable because of micromanagement issues, they simply take up too much time to deploy in the numbers you generally would need to have them.

It is very difficult to make a fighter that's even vaguely cost-efficient at killing things on the ground, even assuming you have FFD and they're specifically in a micromanaged support role.

The only good thing about them is that AA fire seems to be rate-limited, so if you threw 1000+ fighters at a ground formation at once you could attrite them faster than you.
 

Offline serger

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2272 on: December 07, 2021, 08:55:15 AM »
I think the general consensus is that ground support fighters are OK in terms of balance but is made unusable because of micromanagement issues, they simply take up too much time to deploy in the numbers you generally would need to have them.

That's... pointlessly averaged, let's say, statement.
Against lowest tech AA (smth like early conventional-start or lowest TN start multifaction game) GSFs are absolutely overpowered in some sense, because lowest AA just cannot pierce anything, and so GSFs are invulnerable.
Against any other opponent they are very vulnerable and quite underpowered at the same time, if you don't use huge ugly fat behemoth "fighters", armoured enough to withstand single average AA hit, at which point they became quite balanced at the cost of both more and more manic micromanagement and disbelieve because of compelled game mechanics abuse.
Yet in average of these extremes they'll be OK balanced, yes.
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2273 on: December 07, 2021, 09:47:02 AM »
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but just wanted to comment that speed does affect combat. For ground-based AA-fire: "The chance to hit is (10% x (Tracking Speed / Aircraft Speed) x (Morale / 100)) / Environment Modifier." (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=C-Ground_Combat#Ground-based_AA_Fire). I'm currently preparing to invade the Rahkas with 200 fighters where I have increased the speed from 9.500 to 15.000 and reduced the number of fighter pods from 2 to 1 to see if the survivability outweighs the lower fire power.

I recall earlier tests showed the AA tracking and fighter speed interaction isn't properly implemented, right now AA has very high accuracy against fighters AFAIK.
 

Offline DawnMachine

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2274 on: December 07, 2021, 10:02:30 AM »
It would be great to be able to mark the system on the main screen.  So that such systems are at the top of the drop-down list.
 
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Offline Droll

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2275 on: December 07, 2021, 10:32:07 AM »
I think the general consensus is that ground support fighters are OK in terms of balance but is made unusable because of micromanagement issues, they simply take up too much time to deploy in the numbers you generally would need to have them.

That's... pointlessly averaged, let's say, statement.
Against lowest tech AA (smth like early conventional-start or lowest TN start multifaction game) GSFs are absolutely overpowered in some sense, because lowest AA just cannot pierce anything, and so GSFs are invulnerable.
Against any other opponent they are very vulnerable and quite underpowered at the same time, if you don't use huge ugly fat behemoth "fighters", armoured enough to withstand single average AA hit, at which point they became quite balanced at the cost of both more and more manic micromanagement and disbelieve because of compelled game mechanics abuse.
Yet in average of these extremes they'll be OK balanced, yes.

The tech threshold where fighters become obsolete is the point where enemy AA can reliably do shock damage to a 500t craft. At that level your point about "...armored enough to withstand single average AA hit..." is rendered moot, as shock damage effectively bypasses armor and if not destroy, will render the fighter incapacitated.

The only reason my fighters in an above posted example were able to survive anything was because of shields in a highly modded DB.
 

Offline serger

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2276 on: December 07, 2021, 10:42:20 AM »
The tech threshold where fighters become obsolete is the point where enemy AA can reliably do shock damage to a 500t craft. At that level your point about "...armored enough to withstand single average AA hit..." is rendered moot, as shock damage effectively bypasses armor and if not destroy, will render the fighter incapacitated.

Well, yes, this upper extreme is (in vanilla) very thin thing too.
Yet it's only a reinforcement of my main point: there is no general consensus that ground support fighters are OK in terms of balance, if you don't use the term with very pointlessly averaged sense, and it's more like there is nearly general consensus that ground support fighters are underpowered even if you are manic enough to use them in significant numbers.
 

Offline smoelf

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2277 on: December 07, 2021, 11:46:00 AM »
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but just wanted to comment that speed does affect combat. For ground-based AA-fire: "The chance to hit is (10% x (Tracking Speed / Aircraft Speed) x (Morale / 100)) / Environment Modifier." (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=C-Ground_Combat#Ground-based_AA_Fire). I'm currently preparing to invade the Rahkas with 200 fighters where I have increased the speed from 9.500 to 15.000 and reduced the number of fighter pods from 2 to 1 to see if the survivability outweighs the lower fire power.

I recall earlier tests showed the AA tracking and fighter speed interaction isn't properly implemented, right now AA has very high accuracy against fighters AFAIK.

If that is the case, then I see why excessive AA severely limits the effectiveness of GSF's, but it also means that we don't really have a way of evaluating them properly if they aren't implemented completely yet. At the very least it shows that speed should be a design parameter if a rework is to be done. That would also speak to the above points about armor. If you can't increase survivability by increasing speed, but only through armor, then shock damage at higher tech levels become debilitating.
 

Offline Migi

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2278 on: December 07, 2021, 12:08:25 PM »
I would like 2 extra steps added to the BFC range options:
2.5x range and 3.5x range
I'd also like it if range dropdown was sorted in order, like the range dropdown.
 
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Offline DawnMachine

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #2279 on: December 07, 2021, 12:43:19 PM »
I would like to be able to group the contacts of missiles located at one point.  So that minefields can be used.  I also did not find a way to hide the missile contacts.
 
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