Print Page - Conventional Start Exploration Fleet

VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: xenoscepter on August 22, 2019, 02:01:37 AM

Title: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: xenoscepter on August 22, 2019, 02:01:37 AM

Project Starshot:

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Starshot I

Starshot class Colony Ship    12,000 tons     275 Crew     426.6 BP      TCS 240  TH 10  EM 0
41 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 0
MSP 89    Max Repair 5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 5    
Passengers 500    

ArcaneTech Project Starshot (2)    Power 5    Fuel Use 8.84%    Signature 5    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 180,000 Litres    Range 30.1 billion km   (8484 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Starshot II

Code: [Select]

Starshot II class Freighter    12,000 tons     77 Crew     238.6 BP      TCS 240  TH 10  EM 0
41 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 0
MSP 50    Max Repair 5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 203    
Cargo 5000    

ArcaneTech Project Starshot (2)    Power 5    Fuel Use 8.84%    Signature 5    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 180,000 Litres    Range 30.1 billion km   (8484 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Project Stargaze:

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Stargaze I

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Stargaze class Science Vessel    3,000 tons     80 Crew     423.6 BP      TCS 60  TH 3  EM 0
50 km/s     Armour 1-18     Shields 0-0     Sensors 5/5/1/1     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 0
Maint Life 19.69 Years     MSP 530    AFR 12%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 3    5YR 39    Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 9    

ArcaneTech Project Stargaze (1)    Power 3    Fuel Use 38.97%    Signature 3    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 230,000 Litres    Range 35.4 billion km   (8197 days at full power)

Pioneer Electronics Project Stargaze Gamma Module (1)     GPS 10     Range 500k km    MCR 55k km    Resolution 1
Pioneer Electronics Project Stargaze Beta Module (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10
Pioneer Electronics Project Stargaze Alpha Module (1)     GPS 1000     Range 5.0m km    Resolution 100
Pioneer Electronics Project Stargaze TH Passive Module (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km
Pioneer Electronics Project Stargaze EM Passive Module (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1)   1 Survey Points Per Hour
Geological Survey Sensors (1)   1 Survey Points Per Hour

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Stargaze II

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Stargaze II class Science Vessel    3,000 tons     60 Crew     273.6 BP      TCS 60  TH 3  EM 0
50 km/s     Armour 1-18     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 0
Maint Life 54.98 Years     MSP 342    AFR 12%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 0    5YR 3    Max Repair 5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 29    
Hangar Deck Capacity 500 tons     

ArcaneTech Project Stargaze (1)    Power 3    Fuel Use 38.97%    Signature 3    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 380,000 Litres    Range 58.5 billion km   (13543 days at full power)

Strike Group
1x Greenfield Shuttle   Speed: 100 km/s    Size: 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Support Ships:

GasMover-Class Tanker:

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GasMover class Tanker    12,000 tons     90 Crew     495 BP      TCS 240  TH 12  EM 0
50 km/s     Armour 3-46     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 0
MSP 103    Max Repair 5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Spare Berths 6    

ArcaneTech Glidejet (3)    Power 4    Fuel Use 8.49%    Signature 4    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 2,000,000 Litres    Range 353.4 billion km   (81795 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Off-Topic: show

Greenfield-Class Shuttle:

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Greenfield class Shuttle    500 tons     10 Crew     36.6 BP      TCS 10  TH 1  EM 0
100 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
Maint Life 46.49 Years     MSP 46    AFR 2%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 10    

ArcaneTech Project Greenfield (1)    Power 1    Fuel Use 95%    Signature 1    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 40,000 Litres    Range 15.2 billion km   (1754 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Garfunkel on August 22, 2019, 11:51:23 AM

It'll take a looooooong time to survey Sol at 50 km/sec :P

I don't quite understand the Stargaze II - it seems to only carry a single shuttle. But your shuttle has enough range to reach any major body as it is.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 22, 2019, 03:22:49 PM

Surveying inside the orbit of Jupiter can be done quite well with conventional engined survey ships.

Getting the jump on surveying before you have the techs to economically exploit them means you can generally get the ground survey completed as well before you start exploiting them.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: bankshot on August 22, 2019, 08:26:53 PM

I'd recommend splitting the Stargazer I class into separate grav and geo survey vessels. Including a thermal sensor is a good idea in geo survey ships, and you could consider keeping one of the active sensors but I don't see a need for the EM sensor or all of the active sensors.

If you can afford to research a 25HS engine the geo survey ship can be commercial (make sure all sensors are 1HS or smaller) so you don't have to worry about maintenance and can drop all but one engineering section. Use the tonnage to add a second commercial engine. Your current design can run full throttle for 22 years, so you can probably afford more speed.

The grav survey ship will be military so will need to keep the engineering sections but could also use the same commercial engine(s).

Disclaimer: I'm still on my first play-through, so don't follow my advice blindly.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Father Tim on August 22, 2019, 10:40:40 PM

Quote from: bankshot on August 22, 2019, 08:26:53 PM

I'd recommend splitting the Stargazer I class into separate grav and geo survey vessels. Including a thermal sensor is a good idea in geo survey ships, and you could consider keeping one of the active sensors but I don't see a need for the EM sensor or all of the active sensors.

If you can afford to research a 25HS engine the geo survey ship can be commercial (make sure all sensors are 1HS or smaller) so you don't have to worry about maintenance and can drop all but one engineering section. Use the tonnage to add a second commercial engine. Your current design can run full throttle for 22 years, so you can probably afford more speed.

The grav survey ship will be military so will need to keep the engineering sections but could also use the same commercial engine(s).

Disclaimer: I'm still on my first play-through, so don't follow my advice blindly.

I recommend strongly against doing such things. I think splitting geo & grav sensors to multiple ships is one of the biggest mistakes a player can make. It's akin to playing with 'Real Stars' turned on. I think survey designs (especially initial survey designs, when there is a serious dearth of ships in space) absolultely need a decent sensor suite, so they can see what is out there (not to mention, it's part of surveying).

Although, for my conventional starts, I do immediately research and build the largest commercial engine I can, and use it (sometimes in multiples) for my survey cruisers, because no one should be exploring the solar system at 41 km/s. You can't even catch some planets at that speed.

Twenty-two years may have worked for the U.S.S. Stargazer under Picard, but I keep my survey cruisers to five- or six-year missions.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: xenoscepter on August 22, 2019, 10:50:37 PM

@bankshot

--- Well, for what it's worth, I'm not on my first playthrough and I think those are all fine ideas. That said, it is more of a role-play aspect for them to have those sensors. They are prototypes, which when tested will give my empire info on how to better them. I know and you know what the optimal ship design would / should be, but my empire doesn't. Also, from an RP standpoint, having those experimental sensors on one ship streamlines data collection and maintenance of those valuable systems.

@Garfunkel

--- It's partly for Role-Play, my empire wants the teams on hand and the Stargaze I & II are their support. Partly for mechanics though, as the shuttle accrues no maintenance issues while inside of the Boat Bays. I could put a pair of Boat Bays inside of a PDC, but I'd much rather have the shuttles on hand. Call me vain, but I think it's cooler that way. 8)

@Father Tim

--- 50 km/s, but still a valid point. This start sees me with a 10,000 Ton Commercial Shipyard in place of the usual 1,000 Ton Naval Shipyard. I tend to SM Add three Fighter Factories and a single spaceport, as the Sidonians are a naturally space-faring people. The Stargaze ships are as much a test-bed for sensors as they are for the newly minted Naval Shipyard which is building them. The Stargaze can only operate for a year at a time on account of Life Support, fuel tanks be damned. They're intended to be scrapped once better ships are developed and see no refueling or overhauls beforehand.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 23, 2019, 12:52:17 AM

Splitting geo and grav survey is pretty much an obvious efficiency choice. Father Tim is simply wrong.

The goal is to get the most survey done per BP, right? Geo and grav survey can't be done at the same time on the same ship, so it will ALWAYS deliver fewer survey points per BP.

Also, you get more surveying done with geo survey if it is commercial, because it doesn't have maintenance issues. You can have a 3 year mission and 6 months R&R and it can go back out again, which means more surveying per BP. By contrast, military ships have a 3 year mission and 1 year of overhaul.

The problem with putting sensors on survey ships is that if you want survey ships to have a multiyear mission, they have to have fairly fuel efficient engines, and thus are fairly slow. And if they are large, they are going to be detected on large anti-ship active sensors and they won't be able to run. For a scout, you want small size, speed and a good ratio of sensor ratio to ship cross-section, so that it can detect enemies before it can be targeted. And cheap and expendable is good. The geo and grav survey sensors add a lot of cost and size to a scout.

I like having a survey support carrier that travels with the survey squadron and scouts new systems before the survey ships enter it. They can be very good at their job, instead of trying to have one platform do everything. My model is more a Battlestar Galactica fleet/squadron as the basic unit rather than the Star Trek solo ship as the basic unit. The carrier allows a lot of modularity, and I love the idea of a survey squadron avenging the loss of some scouts and survey ships by loading up their somewhat archaic support carriers with up to date railgun fighters and kicking butt. Instead of independent ships, it is independent squadrons, where the squadron can handle a wide variety of scouting, science and military roles.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 23, 2019, 01:01:10 AM

I wouldn't do grav survey with conventional engines at all.

The problem is that to exploit a grav survey, you need about 10k RP in propulsion RP to make a jump engine. Unless you are playing with jump gates on all jump points? I can't see having jump engines before Nuclear Pulse engines.

Now, geo survey, you could have a sensors scientist and lack a P&P scientist, and it would only be 1500 RP for geo sensor in any case, but grav survey requires a lot more distance traveled than inner system geo-survey.

You would only really want grav survey if you lacked resources exploitable in the Sol system, and you simply can't fully survey Sol with conventional engines, and you certainly can't exploit it without at least nuclear thermal engines.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: xenoscepter on August 23, 2019, 01:02:36 AM

@Michael Sandy

--- That was a good explanation! I might try geo / grav survey fighters on another playthrough. I agree with you on the efficiency claim, however Father Tim brings up a fair point and a decent case for sensors on a Survey Ship. Namely, their assistance in exploration very early on. Thermal and EM Passives allow you to see colonies ahead of time, which tend to be quite "hot". Active Sensors let you see what is out there, i.e. ships, space stations, etc. So there's that.

--- From a Role-Play standpoint, my empire will have just gotten Jump Point Theory. Thus the Stargaze Project will be tasked with finding out whether this theory holds water, until that is done no data can be collected to even begin researching Jump Drives... at least from my empires standpoint, anyway. As for conventional engines, well they still need to study the TN Materials used in the Conventional Engines before they try to build Nuclear Thermal versions.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 23, 2019, 01:50:23 AM

Father Tim is presuming that the first ship(s) to enter a system are survey ships. I don't. I have dedicated scouts for that. Before I have jump tenders, I build jump pinnaces in fighter factories. Long endurance fighters with single ship jump engines. Because one of my big concerns is revealing the jump point I entered, if that jump point emerges in the inner system somewhere. Small jump scouts are much less likely to be detected on transit.

Because I scout before the survey ships go in, the only surprises I am likely to encounter is if there is an asteroid base, comet base or listening post, and that is something my geo survey is going to blunder into at some point. And I would rather have it be small and cheap geo survey ship getting munched than an expensive all-in-one survey vessel getting munched.

I like the RP that you can't start researching jump engines until you find a jump point. Seems a little odd though, because you need jump theory to get grav sensors. But having a core RP that shapes your fleet policy, research makes for more interesting story, in my opinion.

As far as geo/grav survey fighters? I tried them. Unfortunately they just are not very efficient. Consider trying to get even 3 HS of engines in. That is 5 HS for sensor, 3 for engines, 1 HS for fuel... not much for engineering or crew endurance. You might be stuck with only 2 HS for engines, and that is really slow. I like 800-1000 ton for grav survey boats. You can easily put 6 HS worth of engines, 2 HS for fuel, decent endurance, and even a sensor. Or go up to 1000 tons and give them a single ship jump engine. Also, they are easy to upgrade that way with new engines.

Interestingly, you can conduct a survey with embarked survey ships. You get survey points for every survey sensor in the task group, whether they are flying independently, or inside a hangar.

Part of the problem with geo/grav survey fighters is that normally what you use a carrier for is long distance transport. You are either carrying something with no engines (like a commercial early warning satellite to place near jump points) or boosted engines. And survey ships have to do a LOT of travelling independently. You don't want boosted engines on a survey ship, unless you have a lot of tankers resupplying your survey fleet, and even then. Once you are supporting a survey group several jumps out, the carrier is at least useful for the jump tender capabilities and the ability to repair survey sensors. Small survey craft are unlikely to carry enough supplies to repair a maintenance failure in a survey sensor.

Operationally, there are a few other problems as well. If you have picked an engine boost level that gives your survey fighters any speed, you may choose to skimp on engineering and crew endurance. But this means you HAVE to recall your survey group to go anywhere, and they need to roll back their maintenance clocks on board the carrier a lot. Which can be inconvenient if the various survey craft return to the carrier at widely separated times because. And the micro is time-consuming, and the chances that you will forget, and move your carrier resulting in your poor survey craft running out of fuel is high. I could do without the message spam of xyz survey ship is out of fuel, thanks.

Optimizing TOO much on BP considerations can mean that managing your survey forces take a lot more time and attention. I like having a large enough endurance and fuel cushion that I only rarely have to worry about them.

I go back and forth on whether or not to go for commercial for geosurvey. The solution I ended up with was that my geosurvey ships double as tankers and jump tenders as well, at least the 2nd generation geosurvey. So I often have more geosurvey ships than I need, but they don't cost maintenance, and can serve some double duties. But you could go the survey boat (less than 1000 ton) strategy for geo survey as well, with survey support carriers and jump tender/tankers in support. Survey support doesn't have enough hangars to hold the entire group, just to hold any one craft that needs repairs, while generally transporting the boosted engine scouts and engineless jump point monitors that provide security as you explore.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Father Tim on August 30, 2019, 07:41:36 AM

Michael Sandy has a bunch of rules and assumptions for how to conduct surveys that he is then using to justify his choices. It's circular reasoning.

Worse than that, his math is wrong. Building two near-identical ships, one with geo and one with grav sensors, is absolutely not more efficient per BP than the same ship with both. Whether it's more efficient than the same ship with half-and-half is dependant on how you survey, meaning do you fully grav & geo System A before moving on to System B; or do you have grav fleets that just keep moving on, and geo fleets that independently visit 'interesting' systems on their own timetable.

About the only time putting grav & geo sensors on separate hulls makes sense is if you're using the 'carrier & survey parasites' approach. Now you have the flexibility & simplicity of 'a single ship with both' combined with the ability to be in several places at once. Sure, sometimes some of your parasites are going to be sitting around doing nothing, but that's good for the parasites (though it may be bad for the carrier).

- - -

As for sensors on survey ships and/or scouts, once again Michael Sandy is extrapolating from his rules for his game. "It's pointless to have sensors on survey ships because they're always escorted with scouts that go first" is only true if they are indeed always escorted by scouts. It does not follow that the general rule should be "Never put sensors on survey ships."

= = =

It seems like conventional wisdom on this board is turning into "The Fun Police." An excited new Aurora player comes along and posts "Check out my Awesome Gun Cruiser" and the first response is "Rip off all those guns and replace them with missiles; missiles are better," the second response is "Rip off those sensors and replace them with magazines; use dedicated scouts'" and the third response is "Rip off those shields and excess armour and goose the engines; missile ships use speed for defence." There is an implication that 'roleplaying your empire is fine, as long as it leads to 100% efficiency and optimal decisionmaking.'

Somebody posts their low-tech cruiser and the response is "If you put those research points into propulsion instead of electronic hardening, you'd have Ion engines." Somebody else posts a battlegroup capable of 600 days at full thrust and the response is "Yank all that fuel and instead have a range of 20 days and follow the BG everywhere with six giant supertankers."

I'm getty pretty sick of the response to "What do you think of my Battleship?" being "It should be a carrier instead."

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 30, 2019, 10:48:56 PM

Father Tim, your points about RP based designs is well taken, but your math is WAY off.

It is literally not possible for a combined grav survey and geo survey ship to be more efficient than splitting them up.

You can build a budget grav survey boat for 160 BP or so, and a geo survey boat will cost the same. Put them on the same ship, it will have roughly the same speed, right? But to do the same total amount of geo and grav survey will take twice as long. The surveying part, at least, maybe you could get slightly less than twice with efficient pathing between grav survey nodes and surveying bodies.

Splitting them up also saves because for a given system, the ratio of time required for geo survey and grav survey can vary a lot. A system with lots of planets and moons will take more geo survey ship time, and a system with very few bodies will take more grav survey time. If you are conducting multiple surveys at once, you can shift the geo survey vessels to the systems that need it more, while maintaining a consistent amount of grav survey vessels per survey.

And no, ESCORTING with scouts is not what I was talking about. I send scouts in PRIOR to survey ships entering the system. Several months prior, while the survey vessels are completing the survey of the previous system in the chain.

And yes, putting sensors on survey ships is a valid RP choice. But other than providing a bit more strategic information about what killed them, they don't provide much utility. I do not think you are giving good advice when you suggest that putting sensors on survey vessels is a good way to have them avoid getting eaten. If you want to scout a system, and not have your scouts get eaten, you need fast scouts who can detect an enemy before they are detected, or at least before they are targeted. Survey ships are too slow, and often too big to evade detection. Especially all-in-one survey ships.

As far as "is only true if they are indeed always escorted by scouts", I am trying very hard but I can't come up with a reason why it would not be always true. I always have scouts embarked on the survey support carriers. I always have the survey support carriers in the system that is being grav surveyed (in part because they are also flag ships, providing survey bonuses to the whole flotilla). If somehow all my scouts have been eaten, I am not going to probe a new system without getting more scouts. So what is a plausible scenario for someone with a doctrine of probing ahead of their survey ships NOT doing so? Logistics somehow failed to plan to build the proper number of scouts, but don't worry, you can go into this system in a ship that is too slow to run away and too big to avoid detection, but it is okay because it has some sensors on it? I don't get it.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Doren on August 31, 2019, 12:55:54 AM

This is getting super off-topic at this point but oh well

Quote from: Michael Sandy on August 30, 2019, 10:48:56 PM

As far as "is only true if they are indeed always escorted by scouts", I am trying very hard but I can't come up with a reason why it would not be always true. I always have scouts embarked on the survey support carriers. I always have the survey support carriers in the system that is being grav surveyed (in part because they are also flag ships, providing survey bonuses to the whole flotilla). If somehow all my scouts have been eaten, I am not going to probe a new system without getting more scouts. So what is a plausible scenario for someone with a doctrine of probing ahead of their survey ships NOT doing so? Logistics somehow failed to plan to build the proper number of scouts, but don't worry, you can go into this system in a ship that is too slow to run away and too big to avoid detection, but it is okay because it has some sensors on it? I don't get it.

90% of the time getting into system without scouting results in no casualties why whould anyone ever stop exploring in a fear of losing a mere survey vessel? I possibly cannot understand that. You could have strategical problem with resources and build capacity if you have to save each and every survey vessel but through the whole game?

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 31, 2019, 01:58:00 AM

Doren, 90% of the time, sure. But I am not actually worried that much about losing a survey vessel as I am its transit being detected. Had that happen with 7 swarm mother ships, and only the fact that there was a 5 system loop allowed me to withdraw my surviving survey ships away from Earth, confident that I could do so without being followed further. Yes, those ships detected a transit and followed me, which resulted in me revising my probe strategy for future games.

Losing a survey ship or scout is one thing. Losing a whole survey flotilla because I do not dare have them transit out? No thanks.

Every transit of the explorer corps puts my entire civilization at risk. But failing to explore would leave our civilization to wither and die.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Doren on August 31, 2019, 03:15:44 AM

Quote from: Michael Sandy on August 31, 2019, 01:58:00 AM

Doren, 90% of the time, sure. But I am not actually worried that much about losing a survey vessel as I am its transit being detected. Had that happen with 7 swarm mother ships, and only the fact that there was a 5 system loop allowed me to withdraw my surviving survey ships away from Earth, confident that I could do so without being followed further. Yes, those ships detected a transit and followed me, which resulted in me revising my probe strategy for future games.

Losing a survey ship or scout is one thing. Losing a whole survey flotilla because I do not dare have them transit out? No thanks.

Every transit of the explorer corps puts my entire civilization at risk. But failing to explore would leave our civilization to wither and die.

I guess this has been the hidden agenda that you've been including in your thought process. Now I personally still disagree that you would have to go all the way to prevent this scenario mostly because I've ever only met 3 queens at once and never had problem with them following me except once and even then they just moved to the next system.
I honestly have no idea what you mean by survey flotilla and transiting them out of (I guess from the system with hostiles). Why would there be a flotilla? Especially in a unexplored possibly hostile system? I can understand surveying systems with multiple ships next to starting location since you want to expand fast and if you happen to find anything bad in them you are kind of screwed anyway so might as well risk it. But for far away systems from your home system I find it odd. I guess it is because I tend to use my geo survey vessel (singular) as a forward scout.

So simply put I've never had the situation you ran into so I see very little reason to prepare for it. Might obviously change my mind if I run into 7 Queens and they hop on my homeworld and start meddling with my precious living conditions.
I personally cannot for life of me understand fighter survey fleets. The micro required for fighters, the fuel efficiency, increase in maintenance and the amount of research needed to even enable them (my games tend to be on lower end of the research. I'm personally really waiting for Aurora C# research speed setting). I'd rather go and occasionally expose my geo ship's crew to vacuum of space.
I guess this is why we all love Aurora: it offers so many possible ways to do these things and so many reasons to do so. The problem is though that we seem to tend to go down the rabbit hole of trying to fix all of the issues and coming up with The Perfect Answer.
Perfect answer for very specified situations which might or might not happen. If it doesn't you could say that you were at least prepared for it. Or you could say that you wasted resources and infrastructure on things that never were. These two options would be indistinguishable from each other at that point. Players seem to start leaning towards certain meta as the time goes on.

One of the things I really wait for from Aurora C# is the better NPR. Right now VB Aurora has this problem of Spoilers being very predictable in design and NPR being rather braindead in handling of their ships and empire. I've personally noticed that I at least personally have a bias of designing ships at least somewhat to fight off spoilers. As games tend to go forward designs are more and more designed to combat spoilers since those seem to be the major opponent.

I think I've rambled on on random subjects long enough so I think I should stop now before I write an essay here :-X

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 31, 2019, 05:01:41 AM

I used to be in the 'separate ships' camp when it came to geological and gravitational survey sensors. Over time, as I have designed combined ships to try races with different design philosophies, I have moved into the 'both sensors on one ship' camp. I have no idea if that is more efficient because I have never run the numbers, but they just seem so convenient, both tactical and strategically.

I'm not advising that is the route people go down, just mentioning it is the one that appeals to me (for the moment anyway). You should design your ships based on what appeals to you. This is a single-player, role-playing focused-game, not a design competition. If the 'personality' of your race means it would most likely use large armed survey ships, then build them. From my own experience, you will get a lot more out of the game if you adopt a certain style for your race, rather than trying to make each ship individually 'efficient'.

As the game unfolds and your race encounters threats or problems, you designs will naturally adapt to those situations.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 31, 2019, 07:45:23 AM

What is in my survey flotilla:
1 jump tender/tanker
1 survey support carrier with scouts and jump point monitor satellites and a flag bridge
4-6 grav survey boats (~800 tons)
1-3 geo survey commercial engined ships. My 3rd gen geo survey ships also have jump engines. I tend to build somewhat too many geo survey ships as I often have too little for them to do, but they can at least serve as jump tenders for my grav survey expedition.
1-2 independent jump probe fighters

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: bankshot on September 16, 2019, 08:28:20 PM

Initially I surveyed without scouting first. However after encountering my first wreck and ruins my doctrine changed. I send a gate builder to the jump point to explore along with a jump capable scout carrier (1 hanger plus engines, a bit over 2K tons). The jump carrier holds two 400ish ton EM and thermal scout fighters, and one 150 ton jump point scout (engine, jump engine, active & passive sensors, and a bit of fuel).

The 150 ton scout jumps in to survey the jump point and if the jump point is clear I jump the carrier in, recover the jump point scout and launch the system scout wing. While the scout wing clears examines any potentially habitable planets I build the jump gate into the system. Once that is constructed the jump gate constructor jumps in and I start my grav and geo surveys. So far I haven't encountered any live aliens but should I do so I'd hopefully have some idea of what my fleet would have to handle.

My grav survey ships are equipped with one size 6 launcher and an 18 capacity magazine. The size 6 missile has a low power engine and a bit of fuel to place a size 5 res 1 active sensor buoy onto the jump point - that way I can continue surveying the system without having to divert the survey ship to drop off the buoy.

My empire is still fairly young (Internal Fusion tech, 20 systems explored, 22 cost 0 worlds, another 20 in the terraforming queue) so I have a significant delay between explorations. I don't see a need to expand much faster than I can terraform and colonize as that would mean taking extra risks without much potential reward.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: xenoscepter on November 05, 2019, 04:26:28 PM

Having re-read this old thread,it struck me that having A Geological Survey Sensor and a Gravitational Survey Sensor on one ship was cheaper than building two ships each sporting one sensor (or even two of them). That's double the engines, double the fuel, double the life support, double the armor, etc. It really only makes sense if your using FACs or Fighters and can hangar them, since you build the big expensive carrier once, then deploy the minions as needed; allowing ease of mix and match to suit the mission at hand. The carriers also carry some inherent military value.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Jorgen_CAB on November 08, 2019, 02:47:11 AM

I'm fairly certain that both GEO and GRAV sensors now are military in C# so splitting them up for that reason might be a moot point. I might remember wrong and if I am I would suggest they both are military for consistency sake in the future.

In any way I use all variation of ships and tactics for deploying and using survey ships in the game and they all have their merits in some way.

First of all in every game I play the people in that world don't get MY experience of what happened in other "games". So they usually start surveying with relatively small and cheap ships and provide no military scouting support of any kind.

In any way no one start providing military support until they actually find any relevant recent alien life. A ruin that is a few millions or even billions of years old are rarely cause for concern for most factions.

Depending on the faction the loosing a survey ship can and will be an accepted thing or not. Some factions might consider having really valuable people on those crafts and will consider it a strategic value for scouting with military craft first, or some just value all life and want the most suitable craft to scout that have the greatest chance to survive hostile contact.

I do like the Survey cruiser variant that provides everything which usually include a hangar with small GEO survey crafts. These would generally operate alone.. so the cruiser itself conduct the Gravitational survey while the smaller crafts run around surveying the planets, moons and asteroids. These ships are usually out four about 24 month tours.

I also think it is hard to say which is the more "efficient" way of doing things. Everything counts as does naval yards, build times, number of crafts, overall needs, resources, research and how much these ships can perform in other roles. Perhaps a survey cruiser can be drafted into becoming a decent military scout once a war is imminent, double roles makes ships more dynamic and useful in many ways.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Garfunkel on November 08, 2019, 11:58:11 AM

Quote from: xenoscepter on November 05, 2019, 04:26:28 PM

Having re-read this old thread,it struck me that having A Geological Survey Sensor and a Gravitational Survey Sensor on one ship was cheaper than building two ships each sporting one sensor (or even two of them). That's double the engines, double the fuel, double the life support, double the armor, etc. It really only makes sense if your using FACs or Fighters and can hangar them, since you build the big expensive carrier once, then deploy the minions as needed; allowing ease of mix and match to suit the mission at hand. The carriers also carry some inherent military value.

The reason why most people separated the two is that Geological Survey Sensors are a commercial component whereas Gravitational Survey Sensor is a military component. So it was very much possible and recommended to build a commercial GeoSurveyor that didn't have to worry about maintenance, and a streamlined GravSurveyor that would return to maintenance facilities every 2 years.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on November 10, 2019, 09:44:48 PM

I am at a loss as to how people can think putting both geo and grav sensors on a ship could be more efficient.

Consider a dummy system that masses 5 HS and costs 100 BP. If you put it on a dedicated grav survey ship, it will move slower and cost more. A ship that is grav surveying can't also geo survey, and vice versa. All the time that a ship is doing one task, the other survey equipment is dead weight.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Father Tim on November 11, 2019, 12:26:47 AM

The same way people can think putting them on separate ships could be more efficient. . . by making assumptions.

Consider a dummy ship, that masses 100 hull spaces and costs 2,000 BP. If you send it all round your empire following a combined survey cruiser, it will burn a lot of fuel and cost money. A geo-only ship that isn't surveying and isn't moving to the next location is dead weight.

- - - - -

If it consistently takes 30 days to geo survey everything, and 55 days to grav survey everything, that's a lot time a dedicated geo-survey ship isn't doing anything. If you separate your fleets and assign jump support to move your geo ships independently 'round the map, that's a LOT of player brain-power spent managing logistics.

Put geo sensors on my grav-only survey cruisers (if I built such a thing) and I don't even have to change the jump drive it's such a small size increase. Bring an entire second ship, and now I need a second self-only jump drive, or a larger squadron drive.

Unless your ship is 50% survey sensors -- such as the fighter or FAC survey swarms carried by jumping motherships -- you save a massive amount of space, materiel, fuel, money & time by building 115% of a combined surveyor instead of 2x100% of dedicated ships.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Steve Walmsley on November 11, 2019, 03:50:49 AM

I used to be in the separate ships camp. Over time, mainly through experimenting with different design philosophies for different races in campaigns. I've moved into the combined camp.

I'm not positive its economically more efficient - that depends on the amount of work available for geo and grav sensors - but it is definitely far more convenient.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: tobijon on November 11, 2019, 04:26:21 PM

To me its a question of technology, in early game, when your fuel efficiency is low youre dragging a lot of extra weight around by putting an extra sensor in since you can only use one at a time. By the time you have researched 0.2 power modifier and 0.5 fuel consumption, fuel consumption is so low an extra 300 tons doesnt matter anymore so you can combine them in one ship. Its still less efficient though.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: misanthropope on November 11, 2019, 09:10:29 PM

when i assign a ship to grav survey, i know it is going to be doing grav survey every moment of the rest of its life. i operate on big expansions at regular (predetermined) intervals. so my grav ships don't have any time for a secondary role. my geo do, as that work is a lot more irregular, but there's no value in the side hustle being grav survey.

generally speaking, though, overexpanding is a real thing in aurora (as opposed to starfire) so your survey fleets tend to be quite modest, meaning the "value per click" of specializing isn't substantial.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Father Tim on November 11, 2019, 09:46:31 PM

Whereas I know my survey cruisers are going to spend their service lives surveying. When I dispatch one through a jump point, I know it's going to spend however long it takes to completely survey the ground & space in that system, report back all it's findings, and proceed through the next jump point. Repeat.

When it runs low on fuel, and maintenance, and crew morale (all at the same time, if I've done my job right desigining it), it's going to come home to rest, refuel, & refit before heading out along a different warp chain.

I know I'm not going to be stuck with a geo fleet doing nothing because it's in the wrong system, or because the new system is a starless nexus, or because a grav surveyer was lost with all hands and now there are no unsurveyed bodies left in my empire.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Jorgen_CAB on November 12, 2019, 01:43:31 AM

Quote from: Michael Sandy on November 10, 2019, 09:44:48 PM

I am at a loss as to how people can think putting both geo and grav sensors on a ship could be more efficient.

Consider a dummy system that masses 5 HS and costs 100 BP. If you put it on a dedicated grav survey ship, it will move slower and cost more. A ship that is grav surveying can't also geo survey, and vice versa. All the time that a ship is doing one task, the other survey equipment is dead weight.

The extra cost in shipyards, retooling costs and time might very well be enough of a factor to make it worth the hassle of some few extra fuel costs for "dead weight".

Using a single ship for many things is a strategic consideration and not about mathematical efficiency in one single instance.

Let's say you run an exploration vessel that also incorporate sensors and a small hangar with possibility of either some scouting vessel or perhaps a GEO survey shuttle. the point being that the ship are suppose to operate on it's own for an extended period of time.

One ships role are basically to do the grav survey and only geo survey any interesting terrestrial or potential fuelling spots, any dedicated geo survey will come much later if you deem it interesting. You are NEVER going to be able to exploit things in the same pace you can survey new space anyway so no real need to keep pace with the geo survey entire systems anyway, just the most interesting stuff. In these cases geo surveys are done much quicker than grav survey so having a dedicated ship for that (outside s shuttle) are probably pointless and a waste of fuel for the time being.

The point is to find the good strategically important systems and plan your general infrastructure, where to build the gates and where to send your real geo surveys and survey teams later.

Bringing a whole fleet for the purpose of scouting is also dead weight if one ship can find and potentially detect and avoid an enemy given they have the tools they need. It also means these ships can be drafted into military scouting when the times comes.

Any military ship that is not out doing military stuff is also dead weight in much the same way. So it certainly is not dead weight to bring along sensor equipment and weapons either.

There are allot more to consider than pure ship for ship cost for ONE specific purpose, the same goes for every ship that you create. The possibility of ships to multi-purpose in many roles simply make your strategic decisions far more flexible and overall less resource and time sensitive.

The only way a ship dedicated for one purpose make sense is if they can do that one thing none stop without wasting time moving about too much. In some cases I would agree a single purpose grav or geo survey vessels make sense too. But if your intention is not to geo survey every body in every system you encounter all the time it makes less sense to send more than one ship. You are never going to perfectly time when a grav or geo survey finish in synch anyway either.

So... calculating efficiency is almost impossible as it all depends on the situation and doctrines.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: misanthropope on November 12, 2019, 08:41:40 AM

good lord, this isn't rocket science, people.

jorgen, you don't have to be able to calculate distributions, just estimate them well enough to be confident which one has a higher expected value, which is in many cases quite easy. allow me to demonstrate.

father_tim. one of your ships is only slightly inferior to having a dedicated geo ship and a dedicated grav ship duct taped together. if your ship is operating 100% of the time, that isn't 100% usage, that's 50% usage. my worst case is having a fraction of my geo ships doing some busywork, like surveying asteroids in a system with no colony site, and that amounts to something like 85% usage on primary tasks. my average case is nearly twice as good as your best case. a perfectly valid argument can be made that the absolute gains aren't worth the QoL hit, but the efficiency argument is innumerate.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Father Tim on November 12, 2019, 01:03:25 PM

This is rocket science! Well, no, you're right. We don't use Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation, so technically it's not rocket science, it's pretend-spaceship-science.

- - - -

You're choosing a very narrow definition of 'efficiency' -- per sensor -- and using circular reasoning to declare separate types better. If I have a 5000 ton (grav only) surveyor and stick 500 tons of geo sensor & overhead on it, I now have one ship that is better than one single-type surveyor. If you want to argue that twenty such ships are 'less efficient' than eleven each of single-type 5000 ton ships, you need to demonstrate 91% efficiency with split types. Because we're defining 'efficiency' by hull spaces. We can also define it by cost, by minerals, by number of ships, by crew. . .

If we limit the empire to 100 survey ships, then 100 combined surveyors are better than 50 grav only and 50 geo only. That's the logocal fallacy behind your claims of innumeracy -- you're comparing one 5000-ton geo ship plus one 5000-ton grav ship to one 10,000 ton combined ship.

I suspect the vast majority of Aurora players care most about time -- as long as they don't break the bank of money, minerals, or crew in the process. Which means if an empire can make all their surveyors both geo and grav for an extra 5-10% cost (whether we're defining 'cost' as wealth, minerals, crew, or all of the above) per ship, the eighteen or nineteen combined surveyors are "more efficient" than ten geo and ten grav.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on November 12, 2019, 03:29:58 PM

Most of the cost of a survey boat (800-1000 ton survey ship) is going to be its sensor. If I have, say, 1600 BP to put into survey ships, I can have 10 geo and grav survey boats, or 5 combined geo and grav ships.

If I have limited shipyards, I would MUCH prefer to retool a 1000 ton naval shipyard for grav survey, or a 10,000 ton commercial shipyard for the geo survey, than have to retool a 5000 ton naval shipyard.

The argument that a combined ship is more efficient in terms of clicks, that I can understand.

Building my geo survey ships in a commercial yard does promote a little bloat. I tend to put extra fuel tanks and military jump engines on my second generation geo survey ships. That way, if they run out of stuff to survey, at least they can provide survey support to the grav survey ships. My grav survey flotillas tend to be a minimum of 4 survey boats with a survey support carrier to drop off jump point surveillance and carry a flag bridge. My geo survey ships are more often operating independently after a system has been thoroughly scouted.

Which is probably the core issue. Scouting every moon and planet involves so many clicks that managing survey assets is a minor load by comparison. If you are scouting by having your survey ships get eaten, well, that is a very different philosophy than I go with.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Jorgen_CAB on November 12, 2019, 04:16:48 PM

On the other hand you can design a science vessel to be able to go by themselves and enough equipment to survive an encounter. That way you can survey gravitational points and new systems allot faster. These ships can also double as military scouts when needed in a war.

In most of my play-throughs I would not loose many survey cruisers that way unless they come up against something way more advanced than themselves, but in that case even a small military escort might get smoked as well. These ships are not that expensive either, around the cost of a regular frigate scout.

The initial survey cruisers would only survey some planets depending on the type of system. The point being for strategical reasons.

After this unarmed commercial GEO survey ships would take over and survey systems as I want to start exploiting them once they are secured and beacons dropped at all warp points.

There are little reason to completely survey every system all the time immediately. I tend to completely concentrating on GRAV survey to map the surrounding so I can plan my colonies and need for the infrastructure. Finding worlds to colonise, fuel sources to harvest or mineral rich planets with large reserves at decent accessibility is priority.

Keeping a dedicated GEO ship following along does not make allot of sense. I often end up putting a small GEO surveyor in a hangar on the exploration cruiser to survey some close by planets as the cruiser survey the system.

I also find that small ships tend to be rather slow so I rather build them with big fuel efficient engines and put a few GRAV sensors on them and perhaps then one GEO sensor or a shuttle with a GEO sensor. This means that the ship is fast and very fuel efficient, they also easily can fit a bit more sensory systems without compromising fuel economy that much. Some survey cruiser can be like 50-70% engines at times depending on technology level and what other system I want on there.

Early GRAV surveyors often are allot smaller (while a naval yard is growing) and I always survey like there are NO threats out there until I find a threat. The people making the decisions don't really expect dangerous aliens out there until they actually find any... ;) ...I hardly have a military until there is a real need for one either for the same reasons.

Using build points and cost is often a very bad way of reason as that does not say if a bigger cost with yield a bigger return down the line. The cost of increasing the size of a yard also mean little as a yard can be used for other things down the line. You are not going to continually churn out survey ships all the time.

In C# you will make them all military anyway and small engines will not be very fuel efficient any more, so you will want bigger surveyors going forward. It is also easier to exploit good commanders for survey bonuses on bigger more capable ships in C# as well. These ships will survey much faster than several small ships.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Father Tim on November 12, 2019, 04:37:05 PM

Most of the cost of a Survey Cruiser (10,000+ tons) is all that other stuff. If I have, say, one military shipyard, I can leave it building surveyors forever and only retool when tech advances make it worthwhile.

Why anyone would spend more than five or six clicks on targetted survey I can't understand. Check out the habitable real estate, sure, but for everything else there's default orders "Survey next location" and "Survey next 5 bodies".

Building each type of ship in a dedicated yard does promote a little bloat, but I find it much more satisfying to produce one surveyor every fifteen months, and two destroyers a year plus a destroyer leader every two-and-a-half years, and a six-turreted heavy cruiser every forty-two months, etc., rather than a 'flight' of twenty feighters, then five tugs, then six asteroid miners, etc.

An exploration ship like the Beagle going off on a five-year mission to map the stars is an adventure! Dozens of speedboat-equivalents running around stellar backwaters is paperwork. If you're willing to let your scout ships get eaten rather than giving a survey cruiser the armour to move in a nebula, the engines & fuel to run away, and the point defense to handle six-missile salvoes from hostile Bug-Eyed Monsters, well, that's a very different philosophy than I go with.

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Michael Sandy on November 13, 2019, 02:46:37 PM

Scout ships are less likely to get eaten. First off, they are smaller, so they are more likely to detect enemy anti-ship sensors before they themselves can be targeted. Second, depending on whether they are fully independent long ranged scouts (60+ billion km range), or parasite scouts with boosted engines, they may be able to outrun the enemy.

One of my favorite scout classes is an 80 ton ship that is a 1 HS boosted engine, 10,000 liters of fuel, and a .1 HS active sensor. Very fast, decent range for their speed. And cheap enough to have several on a survey support carrier.

I RP it that the scout crews get rewarded for their huge risks by insider trading on knowledge of what systems and bodies are likely to become economically viable colonies. They take huge risks, and their stories get huge coverage. The jobs of grav and geo survey are much more methodical, less glamorous, and less risky.

Adventure is for the fleet scouts that have 50% of their mass in max boosted engines. A scout flight could have an active sensor variant and an EM variant, which probe an enemy for months, finding out how they react. The enemy gets used to chasing off the scouts, not knowing that THIS chase gets them way out of supporting range from their planet, and they get drawn into an ambush. Adventure is the scout crew looking hungrily at the large flotilla chasing them, knowing they get a share in the salvage to come. "Come along, little fishy who doesn't know they are a little fishy!"

Title: Re: Conventional Start Exploration Fleet
Post by: Jorgen_CAB on November 13, 2019, 08:36:07 PM

Most scout cruisers/science vessels can usually have hangars and provide their own scouts, geo survey shuttles or probes. So it really does not matter.

These ships also fill a dual purpose role and can be recalled for active duty in the military as advance scouts as well as provide the majority of front survey work on their own.

It does not require a military for support and the only thing it usually then have available is a refuel/supply group tasked with providing logistical support for the survey cruisers with fuel, supply and probes as they need them. But a single support group can usually service several cruisers operating on their own each in a their own systems several systems away.

I'm not saying your way is bad by any means... just that I don't believe for a second it is more efficient as you need to factor in more than just build points, fuel usage and all that. Time is one factor as is strategic use of the resource in more than one operating field as situations change.

I also don't just use one way of doing this... an efficient and useful survey fleet and doctrine develop over time. Different factions might adopt different doctrinal way of doing it that suits them better depending on availability of yardspace, logistical needs and overall strategical goals. This is not that simple in a rather complicated set of conditions and a diplomatic jungle.

Aurora 4x

VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: xenoscepter on August 22, 2019, 02:01:37 AM