Author Topic: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21  (Read 1713 times)

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Offline Tnarg (OP)

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Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« on: August 11, 2013, 01:19:00 PM »
Hello everyone, I am new to the forums and have been exploring Aurora for the last month.   I have read several posts on missile design most of which seem to be pre 6. 21, and have read several very in depth posts on advanced missile design with what appears to be technology further down the road from where I am. . . just a wolfing race stumbling about the solar system with nuclear engines shortly after research in TN technology.   

It has been interesting trying to figure out basic missile design along with the fire control systems, launchers, and missile engines.   I feel like the Germans in WWII trying to get their first rockets to work through trial and error.   I like the fact that there seems to be a bell curve or sweet spots in design, where a point of this a point of that, with this particular number of engines and the design is optimized, but if you add one more engine you see a decline in performance again. 

Anyways I am just looking for some good basic designs from which to try and then delve deeper into really nailing out efficient and advanced missile as detailed in some of the other posts.   Looking for real basic introductory technology versions along with advise on what is strongly recommended for technology to research.   I know there are a plethora of types one can design (basic ASM, AAMs, high yield long range jumbos, sprint missiles, armored decoys, MIRVs and what not) so any designs and all designs are welcome.   Again just real introductory technology.   Missile engine design, missile launcher design, and fire control designs would also be great to see as I can figure a lot out just by looking other people's designs.   Thank you.
 

Offline Nightstar

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Re: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 01:56:37 PM »
Well, one reason you haven't seen many such designs is that many people start with enough tech for ion drives at least. Another more relevant reason is that missiles at nuclear thermal tech suck. They can't beat through the armor of a similar sized and teched fleet, forget anything with better tech (that is, everything).

That said, basic ASM design:

Size 3-6
ONE engine half the size of the missile, maximum engine power modifier you have.
A bit less than half warhead. (keep in mind that .75 MSP of warhead with 2x MSP warhead tech won't give you any more damage than 0.5 MSP of warhead -- it rounds down)
Rest fuel.
No agility.
Don't worry about sensors just yet.

AMMs are unusable at your tech level.

You can get a lot fancier depending on your exact goal, but that's pretty standard for a reason.
 

Offline Whitecold

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Re: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 02:17:11 PM »
The tutorial is pretty much outdated, as during the changes to the engine system fuel consumption got irrelevant. 0.1 MSP of fuel is usually enough for me to send missiles far beyond sensor range, so here is the matter of how much you want to invest into sensors and FC.

For AMM, if you are able to construct a size 1 missile that gets 30-40% hit chance on your own ASM, it starts getting worth looking into.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2013, 05:17:14 PM »
Missiles at low tech levels (below an average of TL3) are generally quite useless, even at ships with their own tech level. Beam weapons are here much cheaper and useful in general.

At TL3 I would say that ASM becomes useful with decent speeds and yield to combat ships.

At TL4 you will generally be able to afford research into ASM and AMM technology and make them very effective. It is also at this level that I generally start to seriously consider fighters to replace smaller missile ships as the major capital ship combat platform.

These consideration are certainly much more apparent in multi-national games where you control more than one faction, but even against the AI I find this approach to be the more logical and realistic approach. The reason is because you need both the research, industrial and wealth infrastructure to support larger and more complex ship systems. You need research into many branches and you can start to diversify quite allot at TL4 and above. Before this most of fleets will be defensive because most opponents will be more advanced (or at least slightly better) than they are, deploying missiles in that environment is rather futile.



As to sizes and missile types then there are many variant of missiles doctrines that you may approach. An ASM can generally be anywhere from size 3-12 and can come in many shapes and sizes.

Larger missiles will generally rely on armour, high yield, long range. They will generally be slower, easier to detect, but cheaper to produce.

Smaller missiles will be faster with lower yields and better suited to hit faster ships, preferably with less armour.

I find that medium sized missiles at about size 5-6 on fighter platforms will give me a nice offensive fire-power against larger enemy capital ships (they will be fast and powerful with a short range), while I reserve size 3-4 for frigate sized and below ships to combat each other. Size 8 (25% reduction) launchers will be my general purpose missiles launchers that I fit on destroyers to combat either larger ships and/or their escorts. The launchers can be fitter with missiles of size 4 or 8. Size 4 will be a MIRV kind if missile that separate directly after launch. These missiles is a nice mix of good yield and range. Size 10-12 (25% reduction) launchers are fitted to large cruisers/battleships/battle-carriers and will be viewed as artillery missile batteries.

I rarely put active sensors on my main missile ships that can target out to my missiles maximum range, such sensors are simply to large and expensive. I instead rely on a smaller backup sensor and smaller scout ships (500t or below) to paint my targets. These smaller scouts can easily be deployed at TL2 and above. This will also reduce the chances of the enemy actually knowing when and where a missile barrage will come from and hopefully even protect the missile ships from even being detected at all. This will obviously not always work.

I try to aim for any ASM to have about 80% chance to hit an enemy ship. This obviously depend on the enemy ships speed. The maximum power modification of missile engines I use will usually be 4x or higher. Lower mean better range higher mean harder missile to shoot down and a missile that can track faster ships without adding manoeuvrability to the missile.

A good standard size 4 missile template is 50% engine, 25% warhead and 25% fuel. This give you a good balance of speed, range and hitting power.

In a fighter launched size 6 missile I would have a 3 MSP engine, 1 MSP fuel, 2 MSP yield.

In a size 8 medium ship missile I have about 3.5 MSP engine, 1 MSP armour, 1.5 MSP fuel and 2 MSP yield. This missile give me a decent speed and range, good protection and good yield.

On a large size 12 missile I go for a 5 MSP engine, 1MSP of armour, 3 MSP of fuel and 3 MSP of warhead. This give you a very high yield, some protection and a very good range.

You should also observe that a missiles yield will become even more important in version 6.30 of the game, especially at higher tech levels, perhaps starting at TL4-5 or so I think.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 05:21:14 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Tnarg (OP)

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Re: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2013, 06:10:17 PM »
Wow, great in depth responces.   I shall put my primitive V-1 buzz bombs on the back burner and tech up a bit more.   What are some good formulas or designs for missile engines once a decent tech is established (your combination of the four components that make up a missile engine).   I was playing around with developing engines that were smaller and less powerful to larger but more efficient to find a happy medium.  Please share any of your models.

In the mean time I will make my energy weapon scientists happy and start piping some funds there way while teching up power and propulsion and missile techs.   Thank you again.
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2013, 09:24:26 PM »
To have effective missile combatants also requires decent active sensor tech.  You need an active sensor contact to fire a missile in general, and good active sensors are also the basis of your fire control technology.  You need to remember to up your passive em detection as well as the active strength as they are multipliers for each other.

One trick that has served me well is to put a single fire control with resolution 1 on all missile combatants.  You can drop 1 or 2 offensive missile salvo's for a bunch of size 1 amm's.  When you get hit by a really large missile attack, those extra amm end up being very effective.  It also acts as a backup short range fire control in case of battle damage.

Brian
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 02:37:50 AM »
I am afraid I don't agree that low level missiles are not worth it.  You can build even more or less basic missiles that can engage targets with a good chance of success.  The problem is that your ships carry relavitely few of them.

The NCN's Javelin III series of missile were for their tech level capable missiles.  The newer Arrow anti-ship missile and the Falcon Counter Missile are definitely better and they represent only the start of that series.

Beam weapons have a range measured in 10s of thousands of km.  Even the Venom Assault Stage of the Mk 1 Mine has a range of 400,000 kms.

For missiles you need a 0.1 MSP engine and a 0.5 MSP engine, with maximum multipliers in use.  This is to give yourself some flexibility in design.

Then put in a warhead: 2 to 4 damage for Anti-ship missiles, 1 damage for Counter missiles.  Give a bit of fuel, range can be 10-20 million km and you are ok for anti-ship missiles and around 2-5 million km for countermissiles but realistically this amounts to less than 0.2 MSP in fuel.  I would put back up sensors on the anti-ship missiles (thermal works but active is ok) for 0.025 MSP.

Then use (number_of_engines) = ((missile_size*10)+(remaining_space*Agility_factor))/(2*engine_size*Agility_factor)

Your chance to hit will likely be around 50-60% for your own ships.  Your counter missiles will be unfortunately dramatically ineffective 10-15% chance to intercept is more or less likely.  Your biggest problem with inbounds will be seeing them.  Basic starting sensors will pick them up (with a ship board system) anywhere between 50-100k km from your ships.  That will give you a reduced reaction time.   

At this tech level (just starting out) your ships are both small and slow.  It is the NPRs that you need to worry about. 

Do not use smaller than 2 damage warhead for anti-shipping work.  It is essentially infinitely better than a 1 damage warhead.  I did some studies with spread sheets and the worst concievable anti-shipping warhead is 1 damage.  You end up most of the time with limited internal damage due to the missiles tending to drill holes through the armour...esentially the maximum of times remaining armour in a column = 0 and internal damage is small.  Don't obsess about squared laws and such things.

A lot of this sort of stuff depends very strongly on what you are assuming (this is in general always true).  My base line assumption is that you want around a 50-50 chance to hit your own ship and that with 3:1 counter missiles you would like about a 50% chance to stop an inbound before factoring in the area and final defence fire of your energy/kinetic guns.  That you can accomplish pretty much once you have NP engines, and certainly once you get implosion fission warhead technology.  The power multiplier is critical to missile engines.  Your biggest problem at the low tech levels is that your ships are small and your magazines limited in capacity...this means against an equal number of faster beam ships you probably will need to be able to re-munition a few times from colliers to win...else likely they will close through your anti-shipping missile hits with the loss of maybe only 1 ship.  But once they enter the counter missile envelope likely you will cripple a few more.  Who wins in this case will be largely determined by what the situation is when your magazines and collier magazines are empty.  They need only a single surviving ship that is faster than yours with an intact weapon system to defeat you.

Compared to "end game" missiles the early ones are bad but compared to your own ships they are considerably more dangerous.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Basic missile and missile system design in 6.21
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 04:12:49 PM »
I will both agree and disagree with you here and here is why...

I have created two TL1 (only TL1 techs here) ships with some role-play flavour because I don't really like to optimise too much so bear with me here.

First we have the Tribal class patrol corvette. This ship is a short range patrol ship intended for colony defence, although it could easily be changed to with longer deployment ranges at some reduction in speed. This ship will require about 7500RP in general research, such as engine tech, scanner tech, armour etc. Additional military tech such as Laser and fire-control tech is another 2500RP and then another 466RP for ship specific components.

Code: [Select]
Tribal class Corvette    2,300 tons     44 Crew     137.25 BP      TCS 46  TH 62  EM 0
1347 km/s     Armour 2-15     Shields 0-0     Sensors 3/5/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 18
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 460%    IFR 6.4%    1YR 25    5YR 376    Max Repair 15.625 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.5 months    Spare Berths 0   

NSD-P31-S05-F09  "Nuclear Thermal Engine" (2)    Power 31.25    Fuel Use 149.36%    Signature 31.25    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range 2.6 billion km   (22 days at full power)

LS-S010-C1  "10cm Infra-red Laser Array" (6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 1347 km/s     Power 3-1     RM 1    ROF 15        3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
BFC-S03-30-1250  "Beam Fire-control System" (1)    Max Range: 60,000 km   TS: 1250 km/s     83 67 50 33 17 0 0 0 0 0
PP-N02-S01-X05  "Pressurised Water Reactor" (3)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

ASS-MR0.5-R001  "Graviton Search Sensor System" (1)     GPS 10     Range 500k km    Resolution 1
TH-Sx-N003  "Thermal Sensor System" (1)     Sensitivity 3     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  3m km
EM-S01-N005  "EM Detection System" (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km

The next ship is the Victory class Frigate which is a missile frigate. They will need a dedicated scout platform to light up their targets but they do carry a small active sensor in case they need them. To be honest this ship turned out pretty OK for a TL1 missile frigate, better than I expected. It will require an additional research in general military tech of 1500RP and ship components of 1121RP.

Code: [Select]
Victory class Frigate    4,500 tons     148 Crew     402.5 BP      TCS 90  TH 100  EM 0
1111 km/s     Armour 2-24     Shields 0-0     Sensors 3/5/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 27
Maint Life 1.99 Years     MSP 56    AFR 162%    IFR 2.2%    1YR 19    5YR 281    Max Repair 30 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 165   

NSD-P25-S05-F09  "Nuclear Thermal Engine" (4)    Power 25    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 25    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 4.7 billion km   (48 days at full power)

LS-S010-C1  "10cm Infra-red Laser Array" (4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 1250 km/s     Power 3-1     RM 1    ROF 15        3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
BFC-S03-30-1250  "Beam Fire-control System" (1)    Max Range: 60,000 km   TS: 1250 km/s     83 67 50 33 17 0 0 0 0 0
PP-N02-S01-X05  "Pressurised Water Reactor" (2)     Total Power Output 4    Armour 0    Exp 5%

MLM-S05-R150  "Missile Launcher System" (3)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 150
MFC-R034-R060  "Missile Fire-control" (1)     Range 34.8m km    Resolution 60
Harpoon TL1 class ASM (33)  Speed: 7,200 km/s   End: 89.8m    Range: 38.8m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 24/14/7

ASS-MR0.5-R001  "Graviton Search Sensor System" (1)     GPS 10     Range 500k km    Resolution 1
ASS-MR011-R060  "Graviton Search Sensor System" (1)     GPS 1800     Range 11.6m km    Resolution 60
TH-Sx-N003  "Thermal Sensor System" (1)     Sensitivity 3     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  3m km
EM-S01-N005  "EM Detection System" (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Please note that one load of missiles for the ship has a build cost of 48 so the total cost of the ship is closer to 450BP.

A squadron of Victory frigates could be lead by a jump ship that also have one or two boat-bays to carry re-con ships for the squadron and perhaps some additional magazine space. I might probably view such a ship as a Tender for the squadron.

Now, why I think that such a ship is too expensive to start using in an early empire in this era is for several reasons. You can probably afford about six corvettes for every frigate you build. The initial production cost is higher but a frigate will need much more logistical support and this will cost you wealth, minerals, fuel and industrial capacity, not to mention even more research. Then there is the issue of fire-power, you need about three to four corvettes to completely nullify the offensive power of a single frigate in a straight shoot out. So in order for a force of frigates to succeed they need to have a very big advantage in number and will be several times more expensive when you consider all the logistical support.

In the era of Nuclear Engines you will usually struggle to support a fleet larger than a couple of squadrons of frigate sized ships and expand your economy and science at the same time. I do assume a conventional start here with 500m population as this is the standard amount.