Author Topic: A Question  (Read 3264 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kurt (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
A Question
« on: January 10, 2007, 05:16:03 PM »
First - SPOILER ALERT - If you haven't read Month 141 and you want to, you shouldn't read this until you do as it mentions things that happen in that month.  

I'm just curious about what others think of this situation.  In month 141 the Axons managed to get a bunch of corvette-carriers into orbit around a very high population Imperial world before any Imperial ships could respond.  I originally considered having them blackmail the Imperial government, but ultimately decided that they wouldn't trust the Imperials to stick to any agreement and that they would want to hurt the humans more than they would want to get anything from them.  

If they had tried to blackmail the Empire, though, what should the Imperial government have done?  I mean, "no deals with terrorists" is a very logical argument designed to head off any repeat performance by any two-bit idiot with a nuke, but in this case the idiots are holding hostage six or seven times as many people as live on the Earth today.  Even given the near 1 trillion population of the Empire, 40 billion is still a hell of a lot of people.  

If you were Emperor would you be able to say no to the Axons, even knowing it meant certain death for that many people, as long as they were asking for something that didn't mean suicide for the entire nation?

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Ommadawn

  • Able Ordinary Rate
  • O
  • Posts: 3
(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2007, 05:35:32 PM »
It's a real moral dilemma for the Emperor. If it were me personally in the hot seat, I'd probably have caved in and given them what they wanted, if it was within reason simply because I'd never live with myself for being responsible for the death of billions like that.

Then again...

Once you negotiate with somebody in that sort of situation, where does it end? They know they have you, and can do it again somewhere else, or someone else gets it into their head to do it as well.

Logic or heart? It's a toughy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Ommadawn »
 

Offline vergeraiders

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • Posts: 83
(No subject)
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2007, 06:10:24 PM »
Obvisouly it depents on the demands, but the Empire would be in postion to 'give' a lot then extract its revenge in a short while.

Though we as a reader know the Axons are done for - the Empire must have a pretty good idea how beat up the Axon's are - especially after meeting an ASR ship in their space.

What could the Axon's have asked for - money? give! just in cold hard economics 40 billion is worth a lot.

tech? sure give them all they ask for - they most likely cant use it

a truce? sure as long as the contitions is removing the carriers and the location of the closed WP. Then break the truce as soon as the civilians are safe. Even if it ultimately costs ships to retake lost territory it would still likely be worthwile.

What else could the Axon's ask for that would be meaningful.

Mike S.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by vergeraiders »
 

Offline Michael Sandy

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • M
  • Posts: 771
  • Thanked: 83 times
(No subject)
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2007, 06:17:09 PM »
Easy answer, stall them.

"An emissary from the Emperor is on his way".

Or, "Light speed communications round trip time is 3 days.  I am no more empowered to make decisions that are enforceable on the Emperor that XYZ ship captain could make treaties enforceable on the Prophet."

You are almost certain to lose the planet in any case.  All you can do is make sure the Axon fleet does not get away, not without revealing the warp point they came through.

Alternatively, I would threaten.  And I would not threaten genocide.  No, I would couch the threat as so:
"We will invade all Axon worlds.  True, you can seek matyrdom and destroy your own worlds.  But all surviving Axons will be taught from childhood in ASR or Empire schools.  They will be taught history by us.  So any Axons who survive will be one who are raised to hate the Prophet and reject his faith.  We have the wealth and the means to corrupt all who you would call weak in the faith."

"Now you know better than anyone that the faith of some Axons are weak.  And yet, only those Axons who are weak in faith will survive.  And those Axons who are weak in faith will prosper, we will assure that.  And it is possible that the Axons will go extinct.  You have my word that the breath of the last Axon will be spent cursing the Prophet and all of his works."

"The fate of the world you threaten, and the fate of the faith of the Prophet are in your hands, and their fates are the same.  Destroy the planet, and the faith in the Prophet will be destroyed.  Show mercy, and the very weakness you scorned will allow it to survive, but not to thrive."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Michael Sandy »
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
(No subject)
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2007, 06:38:11 PM »
Quote from: "Ommadawn"
It's a real moral dilemma for the Emperor. If it were me personally in the hot seat, I'd probably have caved in and given them what they wanted, if it was within reason simply because I'd never live with myself for being responsible for the death of billions like that.

Then again...

Once you negotiate with somebody in that sort of situation, where does it end? They know they have you, and can do it again somewhere else, or someone else gets it into their head to do it as well.

Logic or heart? It's a toughy.


That's what makes this such a dilemma.  The temptation to give them what they want so long as it isn't too outrageous would be almost overhwhelming, I would think, but once you give in once every other race would know that you are vulnerable in that way.  When would it ever end?  

But how could anyone be responsible, even indirectly, for that many deaths?

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
(No subject)
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2007, 06:45:02 PM »
Quote from: "vergeraiders"
Obvisouly it depents on the demands, but the Empire would be in postion to 'give' a lot then extract its revenge in a short while.

Though we as a reader know the Axons are done for - the Empire must have a pretty good idea how beat up the Axon's are - especially after meeting an ASR ship in their space.

What could the Axon's have asked for - money? give! just in cold hard economics 40 billion is worth a lot.

tech? sure give them all they ask for - they most likely cant use it

a truce? sure as long as the contitions is removing the carriers and the location of the closed WP. Then break the truce as soon as the civilians are safe. Even if it ultimately costs ships to retake lost territory it would still likely be worthwile.

What else could the Axon's ask for that would be meaningful.

Mike S.


Well, ultimately the reasons you list above are why the Axons didn't bother with blackmail.  If the Empire was their only problem then it might have been worth it to force a withdrawal from their space, if only to gain breathing room, even if they knew that the Empire would never honor the agreement once the Axon ships left Imperial space.  With two other major races contending for their territory, though, getting the Empire to stop wouldn't change their fate in any appreciable way, so they decided for revenge instead of blackmail.  

If the Empire was the Axon's only enemy, though, I would definitely have them try to blackmail the Empire into withdrawing, and to be honest I have no idea what the Emperor would do in that situation, which was why I was asking.  

The reality is that the Empire could afford to give the Axons almost anything they might ask for, within "reason", but the very act of giving it might potentially cause even more Terran deaths in the future.  

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline vergeraiders

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • Posts: 83
(No subject)
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2007, 07:12:59 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
The reality is that the Empire could afford to give the Axons almost anything they might ask for, within "reason", but the very act of giving it might potentially cause even more Terran deaths in the future.  

Kurt


40 billion? Only through an attack on a population. I doubt that even Steve's Rigellians lost that many crew beings and that campaign had to be the most destructive ever run in stafire. How many of the systems about to be fortified by the empire would it take to total that many?

Sure delaying/prolonging the war with the Axons might result in a key fleet being out of position when the eaters/chosen/cyborgs (if not also a chosen varient) returned to some critical system. but how many single systems would be worse?

I think most human populations would be happy to hear their government made a deal that saved 40 billion civilians as long as it had a plan to extract revenge at a later but not to distant date and that those who 'profited' from that blackmail came to a bad end.

Their would likely be a short term firestorm of weak governemnt, call for resignations etc. Its just a question of what would happen fastest.

Mike S.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by vergeraiders »
 

Offline Ommadawn

  • Able Ordinary Rate
  • O
  • Posts: 3
(No subject)
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2007, 07:17:16 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
Quote from: "Ommadawn"
It's a real moral dilemma for the Emperor. If it were me personally in the hot seat, I'd probably have caved in and given them what they wanted, if it was within reason simply because I'd never live with myself for being responsible for the death of billions like that.

Then again...

Once you negotiate with somebody in that sort of situation, where does it end? They know they have you, and can do it again somewhere else, or someone else gets it into their head to do it as well.

Logic or heart? It's a toughy.

That's what makes this such a dilemma.  The temptation to give them what they want so long as it isn't too outrageous would be almost overhwhelming, I would think, but once you give in once every other race would know that you are vulnerable in that way.  When would it ever end?  

But how could anyone be responsible, even indirectly, for that many deaths?


The buck stops with the guy in charge at the top. His decision is the one that will condemn those billions of people to death if he decides not to deal with the Axons. I guess it can be easy to forget about the individual when we play with the populations we do in Starfire, but we're talking about BILLIONS of citizens here. There's also political fall out if they're allowed to be destroyed. The Emperor's position isn't so safe that he can really allow it to happen, from what I've seen.

The Axon's doing what they did really gave him the out he needed, in fact. He didn't have to reject their demands and face the political fallout.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Ommadawn »
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
(No subject)
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2007, 11:10:21 AM »
Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
Easy answer, stall them.

"An emissary from the Emperor is on his way".

Or, "Light speed communications round trip time is 3 days.  I am no more empowered to make decisions that are enforceable on the Emperor that XYZ ship captain could make treaties enforceable on the Prophet."

You are almost certain to lose the planet in any case.  All you can do is make sure the Axon fleet does not get away, not without revealing the warp point they came through.

Well, they would have to be pretty stupid to let their corvettes be caught by anything the Terrans would field.  If the Axons used a more conventional navy that sort of tactic might work, but it would be very difficult for conventional Imperial forces to catch corvettes.  

Also, a delaying strategy assumes that the hostage-taker is willing to delay too long out of greed to obtain what he is asking for.  The Axons are just insane enough to actually want to nuke a planet, and have demonstrated that trait in the past.  Still, this sort of strategy might be the only viable military option, and, as you note, the planet is lost anyway.

Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
Alternatively, I would threaten.  And I would not threaten genocide.  No, I would couch the threat as so:
"We will invade all Axon worlds.  True, you can seek matyrdom and destroy your own worlds.  But all surviving Axons will be taught from childhood in ASR or Empire schools.  They will be taught history by us.  So any Axons who survive will be one who are raised to hate the Prophet and reject his faith.  We have the wealth and the means to corrupt all who you would call weak in the faith."

"Now you know better than anyone that the faith of some Axons are weak.  And yet, only those Axons who are weak in faith will survive.  And those Axons who are weak in faith will prosper, we will assure that.  And it is possible that the Axons will go extinct.  You have my word that the breath of the last Axon will be spent cursing the Prophet and all of his works."

"The fate of the world you threaten, and the fate of the faith of the Prophet are in your hands, and their fates are the same.  Destroy the planet, and the faith in the Prophet will be destroyed.  Show mercy, and the very weakness you scorned will allow it to survive, but not to thrive."


Well, the Axons are already sure that those things are going to happen anyway, so threatening them with something like that isn't likely to change anything.  

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
(No subject)
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2007, 11:30:24 AM »
Quote from: "vergeraiders"
Quote from: "Kurt"
The reality is that the Empire could afford to give the Axons almost anything they might ask for, within "reason", but the very act of giving it might potentially cause even more Terran deaths in the future.  

Kurt

40 billion? Only through an attack on a population. I doubt that even Steve's Rigellians lost that many crew beings and that campaign had to be the most destructive ever run in stafire. How many of the systems about to be fortified by the empire would it take to total that many?

Sure delaying/prolonging the war with the Axons might result in a key fleet being out of position when the eaters/chosen/cyborgs (if not also a chosen varient) returned to some critical system. but how many single systems would be worse?

I think most human populations would be happy to hear their government made a deal that saved 40 billion civilians as long as it had a plan to extract revenge at a later but not to distant date and that those who 'profited' from that blackmail came to a bad end.

Their would likely be a short term firestorm of weak governemnt, call for resignations etc. Its just a question of what would happen fastest.

Mike S.


Well, what I meant was that once you give in to blackmail, you encourage its use against you again in the future.  Giving in to the Axons might make sense at the time, but what about the next time, and the next time, and so on.  The potential death toll could be enormous.  Of course, how likely is it that another race would be able to attain this same position, undesputed control of a core world?  The Axons only got there by possession of a closed warp point.  

I am writing up the events in the Empire following this incident and the debate in the Senate is dealing with this very subject.  Some want to wipe out all of the Axons as a message to the other races, so that no one will ever do this against humans again.  Others want a more limited response, for various reasons, and there are some arguing for a compassionate response to rehabilitate the ignorant creatures that would do something like this.  

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
(No subject)
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2007, 11:33:23 AM »
Quote from: "Ommadawn"
Quote from: "Kurt"
Quote from: "Ommadawn"
It's a real moral dilemma for the Emperor. If it were me personally in the hot seat, I'd probably have caved in and given them what they wanted, if it was within reason simply because I'd never live with myself for being responsible for the death of billions like that.

Then again...

Once you negotiate with somebody in that sort of situation, where does it end? They know they have you, and can do it again somewhere else, or someone else gets it into their head to do it as well.

Logic or heart? It's a toughy.

That's what makes this such a dilemma.  The temptation to give them what they want so long as it isn't too outrageous would be almost overhwhelming, I would think, but once you give in once every other race would know that you are vulnerable in that way.  When would it ever end?  

But how could anyone be responsible, even indirectly, for that many deaths?

The buck stops with the guy in charge at the top. His decision is the one that will condemn those billions of people to death if he decides not to deal with the Axons. I guess it can be easy to forget about the individual when we play with the populations we do in Starfire, but we're talking about BILLIONS of citizens here. There's also political fall out if they're allowed to be destroyed. The Emperor's position isn't so safe that he can really allow it to happen, from what I've seen.

The Axon's doing what they did really gave him the out he needed, in fact. He didn't have to reject their demands and face the political fallout.


How right you are about the Emperor, and even though the Axons didn't blackmail him, he is still in trouble.  After all, ultimately he is responsible for the war with the Axons, which in today's parlance is a "war of choice", and, even worse, he is also responsible for the state of the Core Sector's defenses.  Forty billion deaths is a hard thing to forgive for anyone.  

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Randy

  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • ******
  • Posts: 146
  • Thanked: 1 times
(No subject)
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2007, 09:45:10 AM »
My response would depend on the tech and ships available. For example, if you had cloaking available, and enough ships within reach, you negotiate long enough to get in position then launch a simultaneous strike by the cloaked ships.

 Sure, you will still loose some population, but unless they had a truely massive invading fleet (which the Axons didn't), they likely would get only 1 shot at the planets before being wiped out.

  And if they did take the shot at the planet, there would be no option for their planets.

  The surrender on first demand (be generous - give them an hour to decide) or be exterminated. Simple, straightforward, and effective. You act this way, then no one is likely to ever attack one of your planets again in such a fashion.

  Lacking cloaking tech, then you gotta look at alternatives that let you keep the people alive while buying you time to get them safe. Even if you give in to their demands.  If this is done, then you gotta ensure that proper retribution be taken. For example, once you recapture some of their planets, have "voluntary" colonisation programs putting colonies of them in systems known to be adjacent to the Eaters... they might solve the problem for ya. :-)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Randy »
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
(No subject)
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2007, 05:06:02 PM »
Quote from: "Randy"
My response would depend on the tech and ships available. For example, if you had cloaking available, and enough ships within reach, you negotiate long enough to get in position then launch a simultaneous strike by the cloaked ships.

 Sure, you will still loose some population, but unless they had a truely massive invading fleet (which the Axons didn't), they likely would get only 1 shot at the planets before being wiped out.

This is very situation-dependent.  AFter all, if the Axons knew that the Terrans had cloaking tech, then their strategy would be very different.  In that case they could never know if they were safe and would be much more likely to go for a raid instead of blackmail given the fact that they wouldn't know if cloaked forces are closing on them.  

Quote from: "Randy"
And if they did take the shot at the planet, there would be no option for their planets.

  The surrender on first demand (be generous - give them an hour to decide) or be exterminated. Simple, straightforward, and effective. You act this way, then no one is likely to ever attack one of your planets again in such a fashion.

  Lacking cloaking tech, then you gotta look at alternatives that let you keep the people alive while buying you time to get them safe. Even if you give in to their demands.  If this is done, then you gotta ensure that proper retribution be taken. For example, once you recapture some of their planets, have "voluntary" colonisation programs putting colonies of them in systems known to be adjacent to the Eaters... they might solve the problem for ya. :D This last was one of the reasons I decided against a blackmail attempt by the Axons.  After all, it would be very unlikely that any race would honor any agreement made by duress, especially duress as vile and low as this.  It might be useful to gain some breathing room and force the temporary withdrawal of Terran units, but the inevitable retribution is bound to be bad.  

Of course, the Axon leaders have no particular concern for their people, who have failed both the leaders and their god, and even less for their own fate.  This gives them a particular kind of freedom in their current situation.  

This whole situation has yet again raised a condition that I believe is common to Imperial Starfire (ISF) campaigns but which would probably not happen in real life.  In most ISF campaigns that I have been involved with the temptation is to keep fleets concentrated into a relative few large nodal forces.  This makes sense from a wargaming standpoint because most potential attacks are going to be made on a limited front down one or two warp lines.  The attacking forces are almost always concentrated into large forces, which is necessitated by the reality of warp line travel, which necessitates the concentration of defensive forces as well, lest they be destroyed piecemeal.  

All of this means that in most player empires in ISF, the vast bulk of planets have no military forces stationed in them at all, and I think this is fairly unrealistic.  In "reality" there is no way that a planet like New Berlin, with 40 billion inhabitants, would be left undefended.  The pressure on the government and the navy would be immense to disperse the fleet and build fortifications in every inhabited system, or at the very least to allow each system to build its own system defense forces.  

Of course, the flip side of this reality is that if the fleet were dispersed through out the Empire and defenses were built in every system, then likely the fleet and the fortifications would be spread so thin that they wouldn't be able to stop even a relatively weak raid like the one that the Axons mounted into the New Berlin system, which is why most fleets are kept concentrated.  The circular reasoning is going to drive me nuts.

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline vergeraiders

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • Posts: 83
(No subject)
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2007, 05:45:20 PM »
In a quote from Total War Medieval II - "He who defends everything, defends nothing".

But its somewhat true today. There iare not lone cruisers or destroyers guarding merchant ships or sitting off the big ports. The mostly group together in fleets that can handle whatever the leaders think will be sent against them - except for subs of course.

Mike S.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by vergeraiders »
 

Offline TrueZuluwiz

  • Zulu
  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
(No subject)
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2007, 06:21:03 PM »
Plus there's always the urge to fight a war on the enemy's real estate, not your own, which leads one to send all of one's strength far away where it can't help much when someone finds a backdoor into your real estate.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TrueZuluwiz »
Expecting the Spanish Inquisition