Gauss cannons

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I have wondered some about the implementation of the Gauss cannon. I seem to find very few reason to put any research points into extending its range.

The bonus for range is that my CIWS system get a slight reduction in size.

I find very few bonuses for extending the range of them for PD functionality since the "Final Defense" mode seem to ignore the range and only fire on missiles that impact the ship. And even if they did fire at rangers beyond 10000km it would be very rare instances where a 40000km range Gauss cannon would fire.

Even if you use them to fire at enemy ships with fighters or even ships I don't see how it matter all that much, unless I have Gauss at the range of 20000km and you have 10000km and my ships are faster and stay at 20000km distance. In most other circumstances a laser would be much more useful in these situation mounted on a ship anyway.

The only reason why I seem to increase the range of the Gauss cannon seem to be for RP reasons. The same reasoning might apply to some other weaapons as well, but the Gauss cannon seem to be the most penalized for the research put in.

I could be wrong so please correct me if I am?

One very simple solution to the problem could be that you would get a small tracking bonus while a weapon is set to "Final Fire" or "Area Defense". For every 10k a weapon has traveled inside that weapons range it would get say a 1% bonus to its tracking, just like the missile tracking bonus but against anything it shoots at that is faster than it's current tracking system. At least now you would get something out of that range from a Gauss weapon, even if it still is a small bonus. It would also make weapons such as lasers more attractive in the "Area-Defense" department.

[Falcon]

Or perhaps exted final fire to also target any missiles in range, if there are shots available after all of the missiles that reached their targets have been destroyed.

[Charlie Beeler]

There appears to be a misunderstanding of what defines final fire and area defense modes. 

Final fire only engages missiles during the movement phase of the impulse that they intercept their target.  There are actually two sub-modes of final fire.  There is final fire and final fire(self). Final fire(self) only engages missiles targetted on the defending ship.  While final fire engages any missiles that intercept ships that are friendly that are within the range set for the PD suite.

Area defense engages any detected enemy missiles that are within range set for the PD suite.

Additionally there already exists a tracking bonus against missiles.   Max Tracking vs missiles.  This tech accumulates at 2% per 5 second impulse that a missile is tracked up to the max value of the tech researched.  This bonus  only offsets the penalty calculated for a PD suite that has a slower tracking speed than the speed of the attacking missiles.  This bonus only applies to beam fire controls.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I don't think there are any misconception about how the current mechanic work.

Why should we invest research into range of Gauss weapons other than for my above stated reasons?

I don't see much reason to keep my escort destroyers 40k km away from my main ships. Any 
escorts that are separated from the main task group are either for scouting purposes or for extending my missile detection ranges. In either case this will be way more than any beam weapons range.

I would just like to see some incentive in the game mechanic to improve on the range of Gauss weapons other than for RP reasons. The description say something like it is more accurate with researching the longer ranges but that is not really true in game mechanics. That was why I would see some small bonus to a beam weapons ability to track something the longer range it has or something similar. If a firing solution travels faster you should also in theory make it more accurate.

[Falcon]

The problem with are defense is that it works too late in cases where the missile can start the turn outside range and hit it's target in the same turn. And most missile will be able to do that against gauss cannons. So you have to set them to final defense, which means that their range does not matter at all when you only have one fleet in the area. If the two defense stances were combined, then the guns could first shoot down any missiles that reach their targets, then spend the rest of the shots on missiles within their range.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

One simple solution would be as you suggested and that would be to merge the area defense and final defense into one and just make the beam shoot at anything hitting the TG first and anything else in range second. That would at least make area-defense more interesting as a tactic and other long range beam weapons more useful as well.

[Charlie Beeler]

True, at this time there are few reasons to invest in additional range for gauss cannons.  Where missile defense is concerned there is one, if Steve ever refines the code that is, it's laser warheads.  They are supposed to have a standoff attack capability.  Also if you invest in small fast knifefighter craft the extra range can be useful.

And again, the tracking bonus your asking for already exists.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I am well aware that the tracking bonus already exist. But since the game mechanic work as it do I would suggest that the velocity technology did something else than increase the range of the weapon, that it would give the weapon some accuracy bonus perhaps, something like the tracking bonus. Let say that a Gauss cannon at velocity 10000 start at 0% as normal while velocity  20000 start at 2%, 30000 at 4% etc... In effect you get +2% for each level above the first on top of your current tracking bonus.

[Charlie Beeler]

Don't see Steve giving any single weapon that kind of hit bonus, and especially not gauss cannons. 

Some veteran players, and Steve is among them. feel GC's are too powerful as they stand.  Personally I disagree with this sentiment, I find them to be too weak for the mass cost.  At the same time I consider them to be the best choice for final missile defense.   

One thing I don't want to see a combining final and area defense into a single PD function.  They are in separate sections of the sequence of play and actually work very well separated.  When the PD modes were introduced missiles were much slower and with the right beam techs you could actually switch modes against the same missile salvos.  Now area mode is best used to bring larger caliber "main batteries" into the fleet missile defense plan. 

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I'm not saying that Gauss cannons actually need anything because they are sub par or anything. I actually find them very valuable. Both as CIWS and regular turreted ones. They complement AMM very well and considering they have infinite ammunition they are well worth using. When you also bring in the regenerative nature of shield they are even more interesting.

So from this standpoint I don't think that Gauss weapons actually need any bonuses in particular. I just would like for the range tech to actually do anything useful. Even on a fighter the range of 10k or 40k seem very inconsequential.

[Nathan_]

I think the original intent was that final defensive fire had to intercept within its range, and thus a 60k range gauss weapon had a better shot at making a final defense intercept than a 10k range one against certain missiles, but that isn't the case since it always fires at 10k no matter what. still the range increments would be way too small to stop high tech missiles in any event under that circumstance. In fluff sense a higher launch velocity is probably a requirement for a faster rate of fire.

[alex_brunius]

Logically speaking range should be very important.

If a gauss cannon can fire say 5 shots per 5 seconds it would in theory have a firing rate of 1 shot per second.

With a range of 10'000km and and a missile speed of 12'000km/s the gun should only be able to get off a single shot.

If the range was 50'000km instead the same missile would be possible to hit by 5 shots (though the shots further out would have slightly less chance to hit depeding on what FC is used).

I think final defense should determin how many shots are fired by: ( 'gun max range' / 'missilespeed' ) * 'fire rate per second' (rounded up)
And accuracy is averaged for all shots to be whatever is used at half max range.

That way both fire rate and range are important.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

Yes, this would also help with using laser weapons for final defense. Of course, weapons would need to be balanced to accommodate this new change so they are not too effective in the AMM role.

I also still think that using just one setting for PD fire control (or two for self only) would be advisable to reduce micromanagement. In practice you can do this right now, it is just a pain in the butt to do so and you need a calculus to determine if you want to use area or final defense PD.

[Zatsuza]

hate to intrude, but a CIWS isn't just a gauss cannon.  It's an entire system (e. g FCS, ECCM, Sensor, tracking gear etc) specifically designed to attack high-speed objects at close range to prevent damage to the vessel.  It's a last resort defence attempt after all your other defensive options have failed.  Increasing the range on it would mean it could engage targets earlier, yes-- but a larger range would mean it would have more targets to choose from, potentially causing a process logjam in the FCS, engine/gear damage from overuse, dead batteries, overheating etc (although overheating a gauss cannon would be pretty hard-- the main heating problem would be the capacitors. )

If you want a gauss cannon to attack something else just create a turreted one.  the range will reach out further with research and technically it will have a higher accuracy rating, depending on the size you make it.  They're a great weapon for fighters or FACs, same as railguns.  The only problem I have with Gauss weapons is the size.  There's nothing really stopping you from making a man-portable solenoid gun, so the accuracy changes with reduced size really don't make sense to me.

In short you should only use CIWS for a last ditch defence. 
1) Launch AMMs to intercept, ideally a minimum of two dependant on enemy missile speed.  Against missiles marginally faster than yours it would probably take three AMMs or more.

2) Any surviving incoming missiles are taken out by long-ranged beams, or alternatively a swarm of fighters/FACs .  I find my gauss and railgun fighters actually manage to gun down missiles heading for my big ships pretty often before they rush to swam my enemies.

3) Multiple FCS on beamships-- generally my area defence ships always have several weapons always set to area defence, and several always set to final fire.

just my 2 cents.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

The range tech do almost no difference to a Gauss weapon since you never use anything but final fire for it and beam combat generally don't get that close for normal ships.

CIWS and regular Gauss canons generally operate in the same way except CIWS is slightly smaller but only protect the ship it is on while turreted Gauss cannons protect other ships in the same Task-Group.

The range tech do not give you any advantage in accuracy or anything, it is only your targeting sensors that offer you any accuracy.

The range might be useful on a fighter hull if you use Gauss armed fighters, but even here it is very situational. I find that rail guns/lasers are more useful on fighter hulls anyway.