Author Topic: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.  (Read 1052 times)

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Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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Old Post for Archival reasons, ignore... or don't, but the new post is the one that is relevant.
Off-Topic: show

 --- I'll make this brief and to the point as it's darn near 2am at the time of this writing.

 --- Mesons, they could be in a better place right now. I saw somewhere in the Suggestions Thread that Mesons were based on STO weapons from... Traveller I think? Where they were massive things that needed a planetary scale powerplant to function at all.

 --- This got me thinking. See, what bothers me about Mesons, and HPMs and always did even in VB6 where Mesons were hilariously broken; is that in both of these weapons, bigger sizes give you... more range. In exchange for slower RoF, more Capacitors needed and being heavier and more crew intensive. A pretty raw deal in C#, where Mesons got the Nerfhammer with a vengeance.

 --- So it struck me, betwixt this info and my own gripes... an idea. A crazy, sleep-deprived idea, but an idea nevertheless. What if Mesons, firstly, started as great big honking guns. Invert the size tech, like that one SirBeardian mod did in VB6. Then, secondly, have them be either on or off, with them firing every increment and having built in reactors like STOs.

 --- So, and pay attention, because ya'll seem to not read what I write and jump to conclusions... I'm suggesting the following:

A: Start Meson size at the max, which is 80cm I think.
B: All Mesons do not use Capacitors and instead automatically allocate mass to a built in reactor, like STOs do.
C: Reactor Boost tech replaces Capacitor Tech for Mesons, and selection of Reactor Boost replaces Capacitor selection when designing a Meson Cannon.
D: Increasing Reactor Boost DECREASES the Reactor Size, but adds an extra explosion chance per the norm.
E: The best reactor tech is automatically used, much like how in the Missile Design we now automatically use the best engine tech and fuel efficiency tech.
F: Either Meson Cannons used in STOs use the smaller, boosted reactor, or just ignore the reactor entirely and get made into STOs following the existing rules, but always getting per increment fire and allocating said mass.

 --- This buffs Meson Cannons by giving them a Shield Bypassing DPS + Anti-Missile + Turreted niche, making them a good weapon to focus down if your empire heavily favors STOs. This also makes ship based Meson Cannons a mid to late game tech. This also makes Meson Cannons riskier by requiring you to mount a weapon that can explode, and possibly quite violently too.

 --- I would like to see HPMs also have this built-in reactor tech and always per increment fire rate. Making them a good alternative to Railguns for shield bashing, but at the cost of:
A: Damage. HPMs can blind ships, but shields and Electronic Hardening can counter this, whereas Railguns can kill things.
B: Damage Scaling. HPMs, unlike Railguns, would not get stronger as they got closer, same as it is currently. So larger versions become a good thing to invest if you are going heavy into Particle Beams.
C: Point-Defense. Railguns can shoot missiles down, HPMs, to my knowledge cannot. Likewise, Railguns can get up to four shots per increment, HPMs, even with this reactor-based per increment firing change, can only do at best one shot per increment.

TL:DR
Off-Topic: show

 --- Mesons are crap, and I had an idea to fix that. Both Mesons and HPMs have a Caliber research which is overpriced, and not very useful, I had an idea to fix that, too. My HPM idea was crap, but I came up with another, better idea. Make both weapons do damage every increment regardless of size, so the caliber is justified by simply requiring more power for more range and not penalizing the fire rate of weapons that already do anywhere from 0~3 damage. The high-caliber Mesons and HPMs RoF is ridiculous and makes them basically worthless compared to other options. Not bad, worthless. The range increasing tech stays, because it serves to make the bigger AND smaller guns better WITHOUT power penalty. Also, the fact that there was no real payoff for focusing research on these bothered me, since it should have a payout and if it doesn't... why have it?

 --- I made it a point to use as many existing techs as possible and keep the changes consistent within C# Aurora's existing rules. Mesons become an early-game STO weapon, mid-game Shield-Defeating DPS weapon with an Anti-Armor bent while in late game they evolve into a devastating close-range Shield Bypassing DPS weapon. HPMs just get more useful as a secondary weapon, letting you specialize and adding a Anti-Shield analouge to Particle Beams or giving you a "Non-Lethal" flaovured option for extra-sensor blinding goodness.

 --- For mesons, invert the caliber progression. Star from 80cm and work your way in. Both caliber tech AND the range improving Focusing Tech become optional IF you want to just use Mesons as an STO. As an STO, the Mesons having an every 5 second RoF makes them a great answer to heavily shielded Assault Ships, but not heavily armored ones, making the choice betwixt shields and/or armor more interesting for those. These new fast firing Mesons also need a built in reactor, so more weight ontop of an already big gun and more crew as well. Reactor Boost replaces Capacitors, letting you make smaller guns at the expense of making those guns into potential bombs. Turret Armor can kind of equal this out, depending on armor tech, turret gearing tech and intended usecase, making yet more interesting decisions when it comes to design and doctrine. As a result, they get nerfed in the role of Anti-Missile until super late in the game. Oh no. Anyway.

 --- For HPMs, they get additional niche uses by adding the option to increase the shield damage at the expense of the sensor damage or vice versa. The former lets them pair really well with Particle Beams / Lances in kiting builds, and since HPMs have no damage scaling, they neatly share the same weakness of not getting stronger as you close. Thus Particle Beams + HPMs opens up space for a tertiary armament, maybe Lasers, Railguns, Plasma... or even HPMs with the latter focus since they do less damage but are better at sensor blinding. Oh, and the latter gives HPMs some counter-play to Electronic Hardening, since counterplay is fun! Both of these specializations are graded out in such a way as to leave the unspecialized "vanilla" HPMs the best option for having both capabilities.

Full Proposal:
Off-Topic: show

 --- So my 2am proposal was rushed and crap. As anything done in a hurry to get to bed usually is at such an hour. C'est la vie. Here follows a more thoughtful, and hopefully easier to digest version:

 --- Meson Cannons:
I have proposed changes to Mesons on several occasions, though I'm too lazy to go digging them up for this post. This change would be several things with several intended consequences.

The goals are as follows:
 - Bring Mesons out of the garbage.
 - Make them more flavourful.
 - Give them more interesting outcomes by letting them evolve over time as a player invests research into them.

To achieve this goal, several changes:

 --- Meson Caliber Techline is inverted. The guns start big and become small.
This change makes Mesons into a gun for only the largest ships, or more likely just STOs. This ALSO means that early tech Meson Cannons, starting at 80cm, will far outrange any other weapon system. They will also be the heaviest, and as such, early game ships would likely need to mount them in turrets, with 4x / 4x Beam FCS to make any real use of them. As this techline progresses, Meson Cannons get smaller, terminating in 10cm Mesons.

 --- Meson Cannons always fire per increment. They have no RoF, so even really big ones always fire every 5 seconds.
This change is pretty straightforward. It turns the Meson into a premier Anti-Armor DPS weapon which gets better over time. This will have several consequences:
 1. Meson Cannons will fulfill a similar role to Particle Beams / Lances.
 2. Unlike Particle Beams / Lances, Mesons will be the superior option for heavily shielded foes.
 3. Unlike Mesons, Particle Beams / Lances will be the superior option for long range fire AND enemies employing heavy armor.
 4. A player investing heavily into both will likely fall behind in CIWS, Gauss, Railguns and other relevant techs or risk being spread out too much between them.

 --- Meson Cannons will be heavier, because they will require a built-in Reactor like STOs have for their weapons.
This is the crux of the change. Meson Cannons will need a built in reactor, which will be assumed to be large enough to provide the necessary power to fire the gun every 5 seconds. That reactor mass is ON TOP OF the gun's weight, so an 80cm gun is still the same size as an 80cm gun already is, but now heavier still. This will ALSO require more crew, equivalent to a reactor of that same mass, rounded up of course as everything in C# is. This achieves several important thigs:
 1. It keeps Mesons from being broken. Flat out vital.
 2. Mesons incur a weight penalty and an explosion risk. Reactor boost would take the place of Capacitor's in the design window and would reduce the weight penalty in exchange for and increase in the explosion risk. Putting them in Armored Turrets would leverage advanced armor tech to help alleviate the explosion risk, but might end up being too heavy to be worth it.
 3. It makes Mesons a poor Anti-Missile choice despite their ability to be turreted. This amplifies Gauss and Railguns by comparison, since Gauss becomes an even more important Point-Defense option for Meson builds while Railguns retain their Anti-Shield relevance by being dual-purpose Anti-Missile / Anti-Shield weapons, thus preventing Mesons from outright replacing them in the Anti-Shield role.
(Mesons bypass shields, and Railguns are good at battering down shields, but are also good Anti-Missile weapons on the very same fast ships which best make use of their Anti-Missile qualities.)
(Gauss Weapons don't need a reactor and can be turreted for Anti-Missile, thus good for slower ships. Under these changes, every Masons NEEDS a reactor, but can also be turreted for slow ships.)

 --- All of these changes leverage existing rules to some extent. Reactor tech already exists, indeed ALL of the techs already exist. The Meson Reactor changes are already how STOs in game are built, having built-in reactors as part of their mass. It is worth noting, that with this change Mesons would ALREADY have these reactors, and thus STOs wouldn't need to allocate any... however, it might just be simpler to have those reactors be ignored for simplicity since it could potentially be cheesy to have reactor boosted Mesons in unarmored turrets as STOs where the reactor boost's explosion risk doesn't matter. I lean towards the latter, for simplicity and balance.


On the subject of HPMs:

 --- I came up with a different proposal entirely, and will place it here for completeness:

 1. Do NOT invert HPMs caliber. This for the sake of clarity.
 2. HPMs, like Mesons, would just fire every five seconds, or per increment if you will.
 3. HPMs, UNLIKE Mesons, would draw power from the ship's own reactors.
 4. As such, HPMs simply would not fire if not enough power was available and would always require the full amount of power to fire.
 5. HPMs under this change would only check for power AFTER other weapons had charged, and only use the surplus.
 6. HPMs under this change would prioritize HPMs needing more power over HPMs needing less, and would simply charge HPMs of equal power requirement sequentially.

 --- So in rules terms they are mostly consistent with the existing power mechanics, and where they differ is not really a problem if you already are allocating enough power for everything like the Ship Class Designer warns you to. So it's unlikely to be a problem to a new player, and even if it is, you'd fix it the same way you'd fix any other power related problems. By adding more / bigger / boosted reactors.

 --- Additionally, since this change would ALSO remove the need for the Capacitor selection in the UI when designing an HPM, I came up with what I think would be an interesting change. A techline, maybe two, and optional at that. Currently HPMs, regardless of size, do two things: 1. Do three damage to shields and 2. Do "damage" to sensors. These techlines would serve to skew HPMs in one direction at the expense of the other. So it is as follows, and I will be using the two tech model for the example:

 -A: Techline which reduces the sensor damage chance when hitting unshielded opponents. Not unhardened, unshielded. In exchange for the reduced chances to inflict sensor damage, an HPM would gain shield damage. The progression would be 4 Shield Damage / 60% Sensor Chance, 6 Shield Damage / 30% Sensor Chance, 9 Shield Damage / 10% Sensor Chance. As you might guess, the shield damage increases from 3, to 4, to 6, to 9 while the chance to inflict sensor damage drops from 100% down to 60%, down to 30%, down to 10%.

 -B: Techline which does the opposite and increases sensor damage chance at the expense of shield damage. The progession would be, 2 Shield Damage / 120% Sensor Chance, 1 Shield Damage / 150% Sensor Chance, No Shield Damage / 200% Sensor Chance. As you probably can see, this just does the opposite of the techline proposed above in -A.

 -C: You might have noticed the diminishing returns. You might have also noticed that the sensor increase has better returns than the shield damage increase. Both of these things are intentional. The diminishing returns in general ensures that the balanced option, 3 Shield Damage / 100% Sensor Damage, remains the most efficient option overall. This means that massed HPMs will always remain the "best" option when both functions are desired, with the specialized variant existing only to diversify the capabilities and make more interesting combinations possible.

 --- Under both of these changes to HPMs AND Mesons; and let me be VERY CLEAR here: The meson change can be standalone. The HPM changes I've proposed are balanced around the Meson changes and I make no claim that they would end up balanced without them. So, under both of these changes, the following choices are created:

 -1. Do I go all in on Mesons? If I do I'll have an advantage against a heavily shielded enemy, but a missile wielding and/or heavily armored enemy will require me to invest in Particle Beams and Gauss.
 -2. Do I go all in on HPMs? If I do, how will I do damage? Will I specialize? I could pair HPMs with high shield damage to my Railguns for extra shield busting DPS, but if I go too far I won't be able to do any sensor blinding, and even if I only go a little, E-Hardening could severely dampen my already impaired sensor blinding abilities.
 -3. Do I use HPMs with enhanced sensor blinding? What will I use to lower the enemies shields? Does the enemy even employ shields? If not, I could maybe field some craft with hastily thrown together 10~12cm HPMs and some enhanced sensor blinding to gain an advantage. Maybe deploy them on some fighters...

There are other choices that these changes could create. The HPM changes are meant to enhance their niche as a Secondary Weapon, and likewise make the larger calibers less of an RP sink, since no matter what size the HPM is, it'll always be a 5 second RoF... and thus the viability of larger HPMs comes down to Reactor Tech.

Under these changes, Mesons and HPMs would have some research synergy, while HPMs would not need larger caliber research until better power plants were researched, which progresses nicely since those are ALSO needed for better engines. Likewise, Meson Caliber research would only be useful insomuch as mounting them on smaller ships, since Mesons of ANY size would naturally shrink as reactor tech increased, but even then the 80cm Mesons would still be reserved for large ships, since they are by nature already big. Furthermore the player would have more reason to research and use boosted reactors for both HPMs AND Mesons, since smaller reactors would allow HPMs to have dedicated reactors for less mass, freeing up the larger reactors to power capacitor-based weapons... creating an interesting tradeoff. Doubly so in making small backup reactors more useful as a design choice.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 07:02:44 PM by xenoscepter »
 
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Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2023, 11:47:53 AM »
Further general comments follow, but for the purpose of staying on-topic I will address the proposed solution first:

I do not like it, because I do not think it scales well. If we make mesons/HPMs start off as incredibly big guns, this means they will be basically impractical, even borderline impossible, to use at early and probably mid tech levels, viable at some critical point where enough weapons can be fit onto a ship hull to actually bring a useful weight of fire, and then blatantly excessive at higher tech levels beyond that critical point. I do think maybe keeping size constant would work if we change up the tech tree, in the same vein as particle beams, but decreasing the size as tech improves while it might make sense from a roleplay/lore perspective is not a good game mechanic for balance (in the usual sense of "Aurora balance" which is about creating interesting decisions, not the competitive sense of all features being equally viable).

I think for mesons it makes much more sense to keep them mostly in line with the other beam weapons, as they are now, and to simply make adjustments to the relevant techs to push them out of the dumpster and towards being useful enough that players don't feel like idiots for trying to use them.

---

I don't think HPMs need such a major change. They are effective as they are, as evidenced by several examples of people using them in the AAR literature (I think maybe a spoiler race also uses them but I can't remember right now). The reason they see little use is that they are (1) clearly a secondary weapon, you can't win a fight with HPMs alone, and (2) the added complication is usually unnecessary against NPRs so few players bother. I think this is inherent to the nature of HPMs as a non-damaging weapon, not a problem in need of a solution - so long as a weapon type is effective when used, I think it is fine if not every kind of weapon is used equally as frequently.

Mesons, on the other hand, do need help. I think the problem is a combination of two factors:
 1. They are too costly, requiring research in three tech lines for a very niche weapon.
 2. They underperform badly, just... yeah.

As such I think the solution does not have to be very complicated:
 1. Reduce the research requirement, probably by eliminating the separate attenuation tech and folding it into the caliber tech. Alternatively, eliminate caliber and treat mesons like particle beams.
 2. Improve the attenuation rates. I've given examples in the suggestions thread of how this could be done in a sensible pattern, following the normal +25% per tech level standard.

You can currently do a calculation that shows a meson cannon of a given tech level has about a 4% chance to penetrate 1 HS of armor (i.e., armor of thickness equal to the equivalent armor tech at the same RP level), meaning if you fire 25 meson cannons at a target with nominally era-appropriate armor you will expect to deal one (1) point of internal damage on average. This is frankly pathetic especially compared to higher-tech-level weapons, and I don't think ability to defeat shields counts for enough to balance this. Even a modest improvement to the attenuation tech line pays off disproportionately well, and there is certainly enough space to work with before mesons are generally viable that a substantial buff to attenuation rate can be done.
 
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Offline Bremen

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2023, 01:11:59 PM »
If one was dropping a meson tech line, I'd probably drop caliber and make mesons always the same size, just with improving range. Mesons' biggest problem right now is that if the guns always deal the same damage there's very little reason to use larger ones.

How to fix mesons is really dependent on what you want mesons to be. Originally they were the defense ignoring weapon, which also made them good for fighters, but they died for the sake of STO weapons; it was thought that a bunch of meson weapons on a planet might be too lethal, and might particularly sabotage the "rush in armored transports to drop units to overwhelm the ground forces and deal with STO" approach. Which... fair enough. It might not be a tradeoff I personally would have made but I can see the appeal it adds to planetary assaults.

Any approach to fixing them by improving attenuation rates risks bringing back the above, and also doesn't solve the problem of there being practically no use for larger meson calibers.

If I wanted to build on their role as defense penetrating weapons, I think what I'd do is drop the caliber tech line and make all mesons the same size, maybe 8 HS/400 tons, with a 10-20ish capacitor requirement. The range tech line would keep them at a decentish range, though lower than a particle cannon for the same tech level. Then I'd either greatly buff the penetration chance or eliminate it entirely and go back to 100% ignoring both shields and armor. To keep them from being dominant in an STO role I'd probably increase the base cost (and have range be only a minor part of the cost) - doubling the cost of a weapon on a ship is only a relatively small increase because much of the cost of the ship is engines, armor, etc, but doubling the cost of a weapon in an STO mount will nearly double the cost of the STO.

This would also eliminate the possibility of fighter mesons, which is kind of sad, but might open up the potential for a fighter/bomber doctrine with fighters escorting relatively lumbering and fragile meson FACs that could do some nasty damage if they got into their (relatively decent) range of capital ships.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 02:28:21 PM by Bremen »
 

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2023, 02:44:02 PM »
If one was dropping a meson tech line, I'd probably drop caliber and make mesons always the same size, just with improving range. Mesons' biggest problem right now is that if the guns always deal the same damage there's very little reason to use larger ones.

and also doesn't solve the problem of there being practically no use for larger meson calibers.

It is worth noting that the caliber of meson cannons does matter, because it affects range in the same way that, e.g., Laser caliber affects Laser range. The problem is that since it doesn't affect damage at all, the impact of caliber is underwhelming compared to the RP investment and size/cost increase, and frankly it feels terrible to research two techs that do basically the same thing (increase range), it feels like an artificial game balance/nerf instead of anything meaningful, lore-wise.

Either approach of: (1) move the attenuation tech into the caliber tech and remove the dedicated attenuation tech, or (2) remove caliber and treat mesons like particle beams with fixed size and a single range tech - either will work and accomplish essentially the same thing.

Quote
Any approach to fixing them by improving attenuation rates risks bringing back the above,

There is technically a risk, but there is a vast gulf of difference between what is essentially a ~4% chance of penetration in typical conditions versus a 100% chance, so I think there is a lot of room to work with before we have to start worrying about bringing back the meson menace from VB6 - especially since one of the most devastating uses for mesons, destroying PDCs in multi-faction Earth starts, is not really applicable anymore.

Actually, mesons are quite bad against STOs since there is no armor penetration or HTK mechanic for STOs. Another potential buff would be for mesons to ignore STO HP and armor and always destroy on a hit, which would give them a very useful niche as planetary bombardment weapons. If Steve doesn't want to otherwise mess with the fearsome demon of meson balance, this simple change would give them some kind of viability.
 

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2023, 05:01:57 PM »
So I'm going to edit this post, I'll save the old under an Off-Topic, but one thing I wanna address:

I didn't want HPMs to have the caliber tech inverted, just the reactor thing.
 

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2023, 07:14:29 PM »
Further general comments follow, but for the purpose of staying on-topic I will address the proposed solution first:

I do not like it, because I do not think it scales well. If we make mesons/HPMs start off as incredibly big guns, this means they will be basically impractical, even borderline impossible, to use at early and probably mid tech levels, viable at some critical point where enough weapons can be fit onto a ship hull to actually bring a useful weight of fire, and then blatantly excessive at higher tech levels beyond that critical point. I do think maybe keeping size constant would work if we change up the tech tree, in the same vein as particle beams, but decreasing the size as tech improves while it might make sense from a roleplay/lore perspective is not a good game mechanic for balance (in the usual sense of "Aurora balance" which is about creating interesting decisions, not the competitive sense of all features being equally viable).

I think for mesons it makes much more sense to keep them mostly in line with the other beam weapons, as they are now, and to simply make adjustments to the relevant techs to push them out of the dumpster and towards being useful enough that players don't feel like idiots for trying to use them.

---

I don't think HPMs need such a major change. They are effective as they are, as evidenced by several examples of people using them in the AAR literature (I think maybe a spoiler race also uses them but I can't remember right now). The reason they see little use is that they are (1) clearly a secondary weapon, you can't win a fight with HPMs alone, and (2) the added complication is usually unnecessary against NPRs so few players bother. I think this is inherent to the nature of HPMs as a non-damaging weapon, not a problem in need of a solution - so long as a weapon type is effective when used, I think it is fine if not every kind of weapon is used equally as frequently.

Mesons, on the other hand, do need help. I think the problem is a combination of two factors:
 1. They are too costly, requiring research in three tech lines for a very niche weapon.
 2. They underperform badly, just... yeah.

As such I think the solution does not have to be very complicated:
 1. Reduce the research requirement, probably by eliminating the separate attenuation tech and folding it into the caliber tech. Alternatively, eliminate caliber and treat mesons like particle beams.
 2. Improve the attenuation rates. I've given examples in the suggestions thread of how this could be done in a sensible pattern, following the normal +25% per tech level standard.

You can currently do a calculation that shows a meson cannon of a given tech level has about a 4% chance to penetrate 1 HS of armor (i.e., armor of thickness equal to the equivalent armor tech at the same RP level), meaning if you fire 25 meson cannons at a target with nominally era-appropriate armor you will expect to deal one (1) point of internal damage on average. This is frankly pathetic especially compared to higher-tech-level weapons, and I don't think ability to defeat shields counts for enough to balance this. Even a modest improvement to the attenuation tech line pays off disproportionately well, and there is certainly enough space to work with before mesons are generally viable that a substantial buff to attenuation rate can be done.

 --- I appreciate the feedback, but posts like this make me wonder if anyone actually reads what I write...

 --- Yes, bigger guns would be hard to mount on ships in the early game. Making them desirable as STO weapons. As STOs, the Mesons under these changes wouldn't weigh more than they already do. Weight of fire wouldn't be that big of an issue, since under the proposed change these guns would fire every increment. 1 Damage every five seconds. So even one gun would be one, shield ignoring, point of damage, per increment, that has a chance to go internal that scales with tech and is further governed by how much armor the enemy has, getting worse as armor thickens. And it can be turreted, so early game Meson Ships might need to trade away speed to mount them, but they won't suffer against fast movers since the turrets can compensate. However, the 80cm Meson also has HUGE RANGE for an early game weapon. 4x/4x Beam FCS would be ideal for a bigger ship anyways, and mandatory for early game to get any use from the range bonus of the 80cm. It's worth noting that Mesons don't scale damage, so the range buff isn't as huge as say, starting at an 80cm Laser with a RoF of once per increment. I did up a proposal for a kind of Meson Damage Scaling, but I feel it might scale poorly with the Armor Retardation Tech, allowing just a dozen or so big Mesons to neuter, main or outright kill bigger ships with ease... and more importantly, no ability to actually do anything about it other than just take it.

 --- HPMs have a similar problem with Mesons, in that the caliber tech doesn't increase damage, the damage doesn't get bigger as you get closer so the range increase doesn't buff the damage either, and the RoF is tanked by the upped power requirement. The caliber tech is awful, and past about... 30cm, actually makes your HPMs and Mesons worse, since the already pitiful damage is now further reduced by an ever worsening RoF. For HPMs, the range can help, if you reserve fire, but even then it's a lot of tonnage to dedicated for a maybe. Because larger HPMs still only do either 3 shield damage or one chance to destroy a sensor per shot. Whilst other weapons benefit from just getting closer... more damage AND you can bring smaller, faster firing HPMs into range at the same time. So why ever bother with the bigger ones, when the smaller ones are almost always a better choice?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 07:50:20 PM by xenoscepter »
 

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2023, 08:28:43 PM »
--- Yes, bigger guns would be hard to mount on ships in the early game. Making them desirable as STO weapons.

So, the idea is to fix the worst ship weapon in the game by making it... harder to put on ships? That's a bold idea, I'll give you that. I really don't think it makes sense to have a weapon type that is only good for STOs, though... I mean, ground combat is cool and all but this is a game about spaceships. I'd much rather see tweaks or changes that make a shipborne weapon more viable to use on ships.

I also want to point out one detail, referring to the new OP:
This change makes Mesons into a gun for only the largest ships, or more likely just STOs. This ALSO means that early tech Meson Cannons, starting at 80cm, will far outrange any other weapon system.
Bolded for emphasis: this is virtually meaningless for early tech as your range is limited by BFC tech, not weapons tech - this applies to both ships and STOs, even though STOs do get a bonus to BFC range as stationary platforms. Similar to HPMs, I think the range "advantage" of a larger meson cannon would be unimportant until close to the end of the tech tree (with the inverted curve) as you get to the <20cm sizes with low base ranges, so you simply always want to use the newest tech level until quite far into the game. We do have the inverse problem now beyond the early-mid techs (i.e., smaller calibers are clearly better; see below on HPM caliber - mesons use the same mechanics), but at least in the early-mid period which is the vast majority of games played there is some interesting decisions available in principle.

Quote
--- HPMs have a similar problem with Mesons, in that the caliber tech doesn't increase damage, the damage doesn't get bigger as you get closer so the range increase doesn't buff the damage either, and the RoF is tanked by the upped power requirement. The caliber tech is awful, and past about... 30cm, actually makes your HPMs and Mesons worse, since the already pitiful damage is now further reduced by an ever worsening RoF. For HPMs, the range can help, if you reserve fire, but even then it's a lot of tonnage to dedicated for a maybe. Because larger HPMs still only do either 3 shield damage or one chance to destroy a sensor per shot. Whilst other weapons benefit from just getting closer... more damage AND you can bring smaller, faster firing HPMs into range at the same time. So why ever bother with the bigger ones, when the smaller ones are almost always a better choice?

You raise a good point about the HPM caliber techs. I do feel like it makes for a reasonably interesting decision, since range is really quite important in Aurora and for HPMs in particular is make a lot of sense to want a range advantage so you can disable the enemy ships at long distance where their weapons deal minimal damage before closing in to destroy or capture the crippled ships. However, there is a point beyond which added caliber doesn't really contribute since you already outrange your typical BFCs (I think the crossing point is around the 20cm or 25cm tech level), so I do think some rework of the caliber tech is a good idea. I'm not sure how this would be done, though - as noted, I think the balance for HPMs is fine as-is so I don't want to see any mechanical changes, just something to make the techs worth researching.
 

Offline Xanithas

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2023, 08:53:25 PM »
With the Meson what if the weapon did damage to the crew? I mean the principal is the particle is accelerated to relativistic speeds and decays inside the hull causing damage and radiation. In game terms it make the weapon a Meh option against ships due to the poor penetration chances without a large investment but what if instead of inflicting conventional damage it killed a lot of crew for each penetrating shot. That would give it a fair niche as a extremely effective disabling weapon allowing you to cripple a ships combat capability without really damaging it / cause it to surrender if enough shots are applied. It could also be used to be a effective bombardment tool as based on my limited understanding the radiation effect is more centralized then then lobbing missiles down.   
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 08:55:46 PM by Xanithas »
 

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2023, 08:59:40 PM »
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So, the idea is to fix the worst ship weapon in the game by making it... harder to put on ships? That's a bold idea, I'll give you that. I really don't think it makes sense to have a weapon type that is only good for STOs, though... I mean, ground combat is cool and all but this is a game about spaceships. I'd much rather see tweaks or changes that make a shipborne weapon more viable to use on ships.

 --- No. My idea is to make the worst weapon in the game better by making it fire faster. Making it bigger is so that you don't end up a 150~300 Ton shield ignoring, turretable, buzzsaw in the early game. You'd need a little research to fit it into a reasonably sized ship. For TN Starts, 10cm Meson is free, for Conventional Starts, it's the cheapest tech and the first you get.

Quote
Bolded for emphasis: this is virtually meaningless for early tech as your range is limited by BFC tech, not weapons tech - this applies to both ships and STOs, even though STOs do get a bonus to BFC range as stationary platforms. Similar to HPMs, I think the range "advantage" of a larger meson cannon would be unimportant until close to the end of the tech tree (with the inverted curve) as you get to the <20cm sizes with low base ranges, so you simply always want to use the newest tech level until quite far into the game. We do have the inverse problem now beyond the early-mid techs (i.e., smaller calibers are clearly better; see below on HPM caliber - mesons use the same mechanics), but at least in the early-mid period which is the vast majority of games played there is some interesting decisions available in principle.

 --- The range "advantage" means those big mesons stay relevant without much investment into size, or indeed any at all as STOs or big-ass cap ship guns. In fact the size of those mesons, 80cm or one or two sizes smaller, would get smaller as the reactor tech advanced. Since they'd need less mass. For stationary platforms, as you bring them up, this would make them even more useful since only the BFC would need be updated. Likewise, without any engines, using armored turrets would make a very survivable station, since each unboosted reactor is a lot less likely to explode if hit, and each meson turret would have it's own reactor, so they have multiple protected reactors.

Quote
You raise a good point about the HPM caliber techs. I do feel like it makes for a reasonably interesting decision, since range is really quite important in Aurora and for HPMs in particular is make a lot of sense to want a range advantage so you can disable the enemy ships at long distance where their weapons deal minimal damage before closing in to destroy or capture the crippled ships. However, there is a point beyond which added caliber doesn't really contribute since you already outrange your typical BFCs (I think the crossing point is around the 20cm or 25cm tech level), so I do think some rework of the caliber tech is a good idea. I'm not sure how this would be done, though - as noted, I think the balance for HPMs is fine as-is so I don't want to see any mechanical changes, just something to make the techs worth researching.

 --- I agree with this. Also, I like where HPMs are as well. Which is why I stipulated that the HPMs changes are to go with the Meson changes or not at all. While the Meson changes do not need to happen with the HPMs. Those suggestions are merely ways to make the caliber tech of HPMs be less crap while preserving and enhancing what is already quite good about them.

 --- HPMs and Mesons both have awful caliber tech. I propose to fix it through making them fire faster. I suspect that will unbalance Mesons, so they get reactors inside, like STOs do, since that is something already in the game and makes the change easier to understand and more intuitive to use. The Mesons get their size inverted because small caliber Mesons would only need very small reactors even at early tech, thus you get horribly unbalanced shield ignoring buzzsaw dps guns with the added bonus of turrets... so you can stack them on stationary platforms or big, slow, and more space efficient ships. The HMPs just use existing power tech, but get specialization techs so as to both repurpose an existing UI element, and to let them fulfill their roles in new and diverse ways.

 --- Anyways, I'm done here for now. I feel like I say ten things, explain them three times and three different ways, but you only seem to hear what you want to hear. I cannot explain this any further, nor do I wish to try. At any rate, thank you for weighing in, frustrating or not, it's always nice when someone engages with you. ...and you do so very politely at that. :)
 

Offline joshuawood

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Re: Ideas for Meson Tweaks, and maybe some HPM tweaking as well.
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2023, 11:02:20 AM »
I Love this idea IN SO MANY WAYS.

I mostly care about the meson changes because HPM have their niche already i feel but balance changes and flavor is always nice.

Making mesons start and max size and letting them get smaller, the opposite of what other weapons do is just fantastic. I LOVE STOs and the idea that they can really only be used for STOs early because they are GIANT but cheap is just amazing and i personally would love it. Giving them a use and letting them drop off later on or be replaced.

For me this is like railguns, early on i use 10cm railguns because they are simply the best PD weapon out there! but they get eclipsed by gauss pretty early on, you could argue 10cm railguns are overpowered but in reality they are strong early and fall off, the best kind of balancing in games IMO!

Just Love love LOVE! this on top of a better way to change the targeting for STOs and the new ground force construction changes makes STOs absolutely fantastically lacking in micromanagement!