The Tyranny of Starvation and Distance (an imperial accountant's lament)

[Polestar (OP)]

The recent overhaul of engines has added much coolness to the game, especially the warship side.   The changes to fuel consumption, however, have been causing me much heartburn in recent games.   Running a galactic economy has gotten .  .  .   expensive.   

Let me share a story. 

I've discovered a resource-rich world approximately 8 billion km from my factories on Sol.   As all closer bodies have no minerals, sparse minerals, low-accessibility minerals, the wrong sort of minerals, or not enough minerals to run my standard game-start factories for more than a few years, this planet must be exploited or my empire will starve within a decade. 

The next job is to get mines on it.   After years of research, my scientists develop I-C Fusion Drives and reduce fuel consumption to 0.  4 per engine power hour and I develop a capacious (and expensive) freighter capable of hauling 10 mines at ~3000 km/s. 

Pre-6.  0, this (or more freighters half the size moving at roughly the same speed) would have been a good solution, and the mines would (eventually) move.   It would have cost a lot of minerals, several years of time, and a fair bit of fuel, but the mines would move without bankrupting the empire.   

Post-6.  0, this proved to be a megaproject my empire couldn't afford.   

1.   Moving 60 mines 8 billion km and the empty freighters back again cost me 8.  4 million liters of fuel.   8.  4 million.   By comparison, my two Sorium harvesters cost me almost 12,000 to build and yield (on a particularly rich Saturn) 6.  4 million liters of fuel per year.   My installation-based Sorium refining capacity is 12.  4 million liters/year, and building that many refineries cost 48,000 Duranium.   

2.   Building six of these freighters wiped out virtually all my Gallium, which had previously been relatively abundant.   These 60 mines, on the richest planet in 15 systems, under the supervision of my best sector and planetary governors, and with the next available tech boost to mining expected to take roughly 3.  5 years (~1270 days) to research, yield enough Gallicite (at 1.  0 accessibility) to build one of the freighters described above in 29 months.   It's also worth mentioning the 30- to 60-day delay and additional fuel costs in getting the minerals from the minehead to the factories. 


I've rolled back the save and will go with slower freighters based on 0.  30x power drives.   This will do much to reduce the Gallium and fuel costs but will mean more time to start mining, more downtime for the mines, and more time to get the minerals to the factories.   Since my empire is desperately short of the usual minerals (Duranium, Mercassium, Sorium, Corundum, and now Gallicite), this will hurt.   I will not ask civilians to move the mines, because they take half of forever, and I want them making money and paying taxes in inter-planetary trade (on this, more anon).   

[Conscript Gary]

That trip takes about a month at that speed, right? Such speed strikes me as excessive for a ship of that size. Though if you can maintain the same speed with the .3 modifier drive that should increase your range by a factor of ~3.5, assuming you were using .5 modifiers before. That would require cutting down on size most likely, but minerals and fuel is the trade you make for fast, large deliveries

[ollobrains]

my civvie would have done it free of charge

[TheDeadlyShoe]

i think you are overvaluing speed a little,

make sure you are building size 50 drives for ships that big.

and if you are building commercial vessels that big there isn't really a downside  to stepping the fuel multiplier way down and just using lots of really big drives.  it drives the tonnage way up, but who cares?  The drive I'm using for one of my factions in my current game, for 300-500,000 ton ships, is a 0.3x multiplier size 50. it's got 1.73% fuel boost and only 240 power. But I can just slap on however many I want because they are dirt cheap.  As a bonus they drive up HTK ridiculously

Really though you are aiming too low. Get 300 mines on that sucker, at least. Stop fleet training or whatever else is eating up your fuel. Your current freighters can get the job done fine.
 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Further analysis:

A tale of three freighters.

Code: [Select]

Atlas class Freighter    40,000 tons     183 Crew     914 BP      TCS 800  TH 2000  EM 0
2500 km/s     Armour 1-104     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 14    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0   
Cargo 25000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 20   

Rocketdyne MAGE Booster (10)    Power 200    Fuel Use 10.61%    Signature 200    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 17.0 billion km   (78 days at full power)914 bp, able to move a facility at 216 mkm/day.   BP-Efficiency rating of about 23.

Code: [Select]

Atlas - Copy class Freighter    39,850 tons     138 Crew     568 BP      TCS 797  TH 1200  EM 0
1505 km/s     Armour 1-103     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 9    Max Repair 36 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0   
Cargo 25000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 20   

Heliosys Stable Booster (5)    Power 240    Fuel Use 1.73%    Signature 240    Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 104.4 billion km   (802 days at full power)
568 bp, able tomove a facility at 130 mkm/day. BP-Efficiency rating of... also about 23. However the Atlas Copy uses about 1/6 as much fuel.

that's the difference between a size 25 0.5 boost engine and a size 50 0.3 boost engine. 


there is also this version, which stacks on enough 50 HS engines to get the speed back up:

Code: [Select]

Atlas - Copy2 class Freighter    57,850 tons     243 Crew     910.6 BP      TCS 1157  TH 2880  EM 0
2489 km/s     Armour 1-133     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 10    Max Repair 36 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 1   
Cargo 25000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 20   

Heliosys Stable Booster (12)    Power 240    Fuel Use 1.73%    Signature 240    Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 71.9 billion km   (334 days at full power)
this freighter is less fuel efficient than the slow version, but is as fast/costs the same as the fast version.

[Conscript Gary]

and if you are building commercial vessels that big there isn't really a downside  to stepping the fuel multiplier way down and just using lots of really big drives.  it drives the tonnage way up, but who cares? 

Total ship tonnage applies a factor of (Class Size)^-1 to overall range and to your speed.
Power multiplier applies a factor of (Power Multiplier)^-2.5 to overall range, and straight (Power Multiplier) into your speed.
And since your engines will be small compared to your total class size you won't have to worry about running up against the naked engine's power to weight ratio, so you can make up the speed while vastly improving your fuel efficiency, as Shoe demonstrated.
Exponents are fun~

[Polestar (OP)]

Part of the answer to my sad story turns out, as hinted at above, to "go to the Civilian/Ind Status" tab, and issue order to Supply and Demand Mines on the planets you want to move them from and to.  I do not know how to move minerals this way yet.

Civilians are slow, but not unconscionably so, and the fuel they consume doesn't come out of the government's pocket.  I'm not sure where it comes from, if civilians even run out of fuel, or what happens if they do.

I also haven't heard any complaints from them the one time I stole fuel from the fuel harvesters they love to cluster around suitable gas giants. . .

However, civilians have limitations.  Except by asking and waiting, you don't know how much transport ability they have (capacity per day), on the route you want served, at the time you want the stuff moved.  It's much easier to plan ahead if you have your own ships  Also, if you don't occupy too much of their attention with orders, your civilians will be left free to earn taxes for you.

So, let's get some freighters outbound!

Here's my current large freighter design (tech level: I-C Fusion, x0. 40 fuel consumption).  It uses more Duranium and requires a larger space yard to build than a design of the same speed and capacity based on x0. 50 power drives (all drives at maximal size, of course), but needs a lot less Gallicite, costs less, and - most importantly - consumes a more affordable amount of fuel.  In the next iteration, I might add more engines of the same type to recover some of the lost speed (as pointed out by TheDeadlyShoe).

Code: [Select]

Navagatio class Freighter    357,250 tons     874 Crew     3403 BP      TCS 7145  TH 12000  EM 0
1679 km/s     Armour 1-448     Shields 0-0     Sensors 6/6/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 6    Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 3   
Cargo 250000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 100    Tractor Beam     

Astra Permanere (P300, C0.01) (40)    Power 300    Fuel Use 0.99%    Signature 300    Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 50.9 billion km   (350 days at full power)

Thermal Sensor TH1-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

For comparison, here's the design that bankrupted my empire:

Code: [Select]

Imperialis fiscali cladis class Freighter    374,550 tons     1399 Crew     7524 BP      TCS 7491  TH 22500  EM 0
3003 km/s     Armour 1-462     Shields 0-0     Sensors 6/6/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 13    Max Repair 125 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 1   
Cargo 250000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 100    Tractor Beam     

Astra Navagatio (P500, C0.035) (45)    Power 500    Fuel Use 3.54% (ed: ouch!)    Signature 500    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 5,000,000 Litres    Range 67.9 billion km   (261 days at full power)

Thermal Sensor TH1-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes


The issue I still have with the version 6 changes is that, for commercial ships, the trade-off between build cost, fuel cost, and move-the-stuff-ability has become much less favorable, which makes operating a multi-system economy even more like swimming uphill, through molasses.

Unless you rely on civilians, which poses problems of its own - like not knowing, except by asking and waiting, how much move-the-stuff they can currently do, how quickly.


Let's compare pre v6 to post v6 freighters (relatively fast, but the speed is perfectly affordable in pre v6 games, and besides if I want slow I can use civilians).  Similar comments apply when moving colonists, etc.  Tech is the same, speed is the same, transport ability is the same, and extra abilities are the same.

Pre v6:

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Merchant Adventurer class Freighter    362,250 tons     2555 Crew     6732 BP      TCS 7239  TH 21750  EM 0
3002 km/s     Armour 1-452     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
Maint Capacity 12 MSP    Max Repair 100 MSP
Cargo 250000    Tractor Beam     

Merchant Adventurer (P250, C0.04) (87)    Power 250    Fuel Use 4%    Signature 250    Armour 0    Exp 1%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range 62.2 billion km   (239 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Post v6:

Code: [Select]

Ieiunium Navigatio class Freighter    520,150 tons     1830 Crew     6744 BP      TCS 10403  TH 31200  EM 0
2999 km/s     Armour 1-576     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 8    Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   
Cargo 250000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 100    Tractor Beam     

Astra Permanere (P300, C0.01) (104)    Power 300    Fuel Use 0.99%    Signature 300    Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 2,000,000 Litres    Range 69.9 billion km   (269 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

The post v6 freighter consumes almost 4 times the fuel per ton-kilometer, despite using highly efficient engines (max size, x0. 30 power).  Because its engines are so much bigger for their thrust (the trade-off for the above), they take up an enormous amount of space, which drives up hull size by more than 40%.  The only way to make this trade-off a little less bad (at a given tech level) is to drop speed.

Matters are not helped by the loss of Hyper Drives, which, painstaking to use and prone to abuse as they were, opened up vaster reaches of outer space to exploitation that in recent versions of the game are impracticably distant. 

It comes hard to have my space-wings clipped like this.

[James Patten]

I also haven't heard any complaints from them the one time I stole fuel from the fuel harvesters they love to cluster around suitable gas giants.

You didn't get that fuel for free, you did pay for it.  Next time you fuel up from one of them, look at your Wealth/expenses and you'll see something like "Purchase of Civilian fuel".

I've noticed that if you don't have too many other destinations for your civilians to go, they will happily ship whatever installations to whatever location you like, as long as they can reach it.  But once you get a plethora of places for them to ship to, they may ignore your installation ship requests, especially if it takes them way out of the way.  AFAIK they don't ship minerals, and there's no way to request them to do that.

[Mel Vixen]

Civies ship normaly only over 4 Jumps. Everything else you have to chain up. Nevertheless normally they ship everything you want them to ship with top priority. Where you might run into problems is that they do that sequentially thus they work on just one task and not multiple simultaneously.

[Polestar (OP)]

You didn't get that fuel for free, you did pay for it.   Next time you fuel up from one of them, look at your Wealth/expenses and you'll see something like "Purchase of Civilian fuel".

I can't find any such entry after another round of "special fuel taxation".  I suspect that manual transfers using the individual unit interface aren't recorded.

[Nathan_]

at ~3000 km/s.

Yep. Try 1/4th that speed. on the plus side engines are dirt cheap with the EP reductions, and at that speed don't really consume fuel, so you can build lots and lots of freighters.

Here is the freighter design that I'm using:

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Eternal Diligence III class Freighter    77,700 tons     220 Crew     689.4 BP      TCS 1554  TH 420  EM 0
772 km/s     Armour 1-162     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 6    Max Repair 21 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 1   
Cargo 50000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 50   

Commercial 120 EP Ion Drive (10)    Power 120    Fuel Use 0.54%    Signature 42    Exp 2%
Fuel Capacity 260,000 Litres    Range 111.5 billion km   (1671 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
I've got about 120 of these running around, and I'm finding that pushing the Fuel efficiency modifiers is very much worthwhile for the kind of civilian traffic I have. The next revision can travel 5km/s faster, but uses fuel at about 40% of the rate that this one does.

Another thing to look at, for your immediate mining needs are asteroid miners. Those are actually useful in that they don't suck down fuel compared to moving mines around to asteroids and comets.

[Paul M]

I can't find any such entry after another round of "special fuel taxation".  I suspect that manual transfers using the individual unit interface aren't recorded.

If you use the miscellanous tab and just remove the fuel from their tanks you get it for free (I did this once by accident).
If you send a tanker or other ship to them and use the order "refuel from target fleet" you pay.

You can tell exactly how much shipping the civillians have as well.  It is listed in the button for civillian shipping firms but also when you set up your contracts, there is a screen in the corner that lists all civillian ships.  If you put up a contract it will be taken and it will take approximately several days on either side longer than it will take the civillian freighters to move the distance.

[Steve Walmsley]

If you use the miscellanous tab and just remove the fuel from their tanks you get it for free (I did this once by accident).

Fixed for v6.30. Civ ships will no longer appear in the list of ships in the same location.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

The main thing you need to consider for v6.21 or later is that you need to produce a lot more fuel in the first place. For example, the British Empire is my current game has ten freighters with one hold and fifteen freighters with two holds, or the equivalent of four of your giant freighters. I also have twenty-four 82,000 ton fuel harvesters in addition to my planetary-based refineries. Start building-up your fuel-producing infrastructure early in the game. There are a lot more gas giants now with good accessibility Sorium and the intention is that they should be the source of the majority of your fuel.

[davidr]

As an aside , does anyone bother with duty time / crew morale on their commercial ships . I have Fuel Harvesters that take from 18-24 months to fill 90% of their bunkers. After they have dropped 90% of the fuel off at Earth I have to let them wait for about 3 months in Earth's orbit to reduce the duty time of the crew to zero before sending them out to mine Sorium once more.

DavidR