Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Bureau of Design => Topic started by: Marski on April 18, 2020, 12:22:29 PM
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Since not everyone knows what a battalion, regiment or a division looks like. I'm making this thread as a depository of information on which to base your ground units on.
Starting with the most comprehensible piece, includes everything from the organization structure of several different types of soviet formations, to how many field kitchens a regimental headquarters has.
Image is a hyperlink.
(https://i.imgur.com/6TG8xgX.png) (https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm100-2-3.pdf)
(https://i.imgur.com/Mpp3Znh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/t8eiOOy.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/r56v8BD.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/Q9zmgwM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/cW3uYVA.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/RvuGD2f.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WUjx5aN.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Apgr5uE.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/iuQ8FJf.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GnlTnBu.png)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam
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Found this today which serves as a good source for what contemporary British formations look like. Not masses of detail but enough to create a reasonable looking ground unit template:
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armyindex.php#.XpyS9MhKhhG
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http://niehorster.org/000_admin/000oob.htm
Various countries during ww2, some more detailed then others.
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I've been doing research into WWI orders of battle for an AAR scenario I want to run and found this site, which has links to OOB for pretty much every major combatant for both ground and naval OOBs, along with TO&E strengths down to the company level in some cases.
http://www.314th.org/Nafziger-Collection-of-Orders-of-Battle/Nafziger-Collection-World-War-One.html
Also has links to a larger OOB repository for armies from 1600 to 1945. Might be useful to anyone looking to setup scenarios during those eras. Needs a little tweaking to get it to fit in the new GU formations, but I've been experimenting with how to set them up and have come up with some fairly sizable formations from corps down to the company level for the UK and Germany.
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It may be important to streamline all this down to what's actually meaningful in Aurora. Creating a complete OOB from Army down to Squad level, with every detail, may be tedious both to organize and later to actually manage and use in-game.
Is company level simulation worth it or can we skip to battalion level? Are regiments necessary as a larger unit? As far as I've read a while ago, like regimental ones, divisional systems were falling into disuse, giving way to autonomous "brigade combat teams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_combat_team)" (BCT), at least in the US Army.
So the primary units could be brigades composed of 4-5 battalions (or regiments if you prefer that flavour), perhaps with some greater administrative unit encompassing them to cover fronts/planets/campaigns.
What are your thoughts?
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It may be important to streamline all this down to what's actually meaningful in Aurora. Creating a complete OOB from Army down to Squad level, with every detail, may be tedious both to organize and later to actually manage and use in-game.
Is company level simulation worth it or can we skip to battalion level? Are regiments necessary as a larger unit? As far as I've read a while ago, like regimental ones, divisional systems were falling into disuse, giving way to autonomous "brigade combat teams" (BCT), at least in the US armed forces.
So the primary units could be brigades composed of 4-5 battalions (or regiments if you prefer that flavour), perhaps with some greater administrative unit encompassing them to cover fronts/planets/campaigns.
What are your thoughts?
It is tedious now, but I hope that Steve-, once he has hunted down all the gameplay bugs that are currently burning through version numbers at impressive speed, -improves the ground force management by introducing "categories" that act as "folders" in the unit design screen, where ground units based on their type are deposited. Vehicles in vehicle folder and so on. Other thing would be having similiar system for producing army formations. So the poor bastards like me, who have designed their army down to the squad level, can have a bit easier time building them.
As for combat performance I can't say, bugs and new versions have reset my plays before I've had even a glimpse of an opportunity for planetary invasion.
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It may be important to streamline all this down to what's actually meaningful in Aurora. Creating a complete OOB from Army down to Squad level, with every detail, may be tedious both to organize and later to actually manage and use in-game.
Is company level simulation worth it or can we skip to battalion level? Are regiments necessary as a larger unit? As far as I've read a while ago, like regimental ones, divisional systems were falling into disuse, giving way to autonomous "brigade combat teams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_combat_team)" (BCT), at least in the US Army.
So the primary units could be brigades composed of 4-5 battalions (or regiments if you prefer that flavour), perhaps with some greater administrative unit encompassing them to cover fronts/planets/campaigns.
What are your thoughts?
I'm finding good "balance" at doing Brigade-Battalion-Company format for a RA type of MTOE. This gives multiple Front Line units with some LAA, supported by LB, MB, and MAA Battalion assets at HQ, backed up by HB, HAA, and STO option at the Brigade HQ level. I find it maximizes CP/ton levels quite well, with some minor modifications to suit mission(s).
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It seems companies are sort of mandatory after all, since the most junior army officer rank you have is Major, which isn't enough to command a battalion (Lt Col).
Command levels appear to be out of whack, though, if a Colonel can command up to something like 80-100 thousand troops (if the Ground Combat Command value corresponds to men under them).
Ranks can be renamed, but apparently not removed, so I'm not sure what'd be the consequences of reshuffling nomenclature to make command figures more sensible.
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Ranks can be renamed, but apparently not removed
Yes they can.
(https://i.imgur.com/soQKopw.png)
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Hmmmm. And how does that affect academy graduate generation?
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Hmmmm. And how does that affect academy graduate generation?
Hmmmm. Look deep into yourself and you'll find the answer.
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Hmmmm. And how does that affect academy graduate generation?
Not in the slightest.
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I always create a new rank (Captain) for my ground forces, and I have not see any changes related to the Academy. As the new rank is added on the top (for the promotions) and you have to rename the other ranks, the only change is to rename Major to Captain, everything else keeps as they are.
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I always create a new rank (Captain) for my ground forces, and I have not see any changes related to the Academy. As the new rank is added on the top (for the promotions) and you have to rename the other ranks, the only change is to rename Major to Captain, everything else keeps as they are.
Is it really tenable to go as deep down as platoon level in Aurora... I have so far only worked with Company Level strength formations. At platoon level it seems like the individual formations get too weak and you risk breakthroughs from enemy attack quite often.
Command levels appear to be out of whack, though, if a Colonel can command up to something like 80-100 thousand troops (if the Ground Combat Command value corresponds to men under them).
The numbers does not represent number of men but the total "size" of the formations under them. Also the game NEVER refer to number of actual soldiers but units. You could easily have an infantry unit be referring to a fire-team of three soldier or an infantry unit with a CAP is a machine gun team of 5-6 men. Like wise one infantry unit could be a super soldier like a space marine in power armour and a bolter. A light vehicle could be a small walker or a space marine Dreadnought type individual.
The number that each commander can command is their capacity, there is nothing that says that a colonel could not command a divisions... I mean he is capable of it... he just have not attained that rank yet. You probably also could find generals that are not capable of commanding a division even though they have the rank to do so... that is how real life actually works... ;)
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It may be important to streamline all this down to what's actually meaningful in Aurora. Creating a complete OOB from Army down to Squad level, with every detail, may be tedious both to organize and later to actually manage and use in-game.
Is company level simulation worth it or can we skip to battalion level? Are regiments necessary as a larger unit? As far as I've read a while ago, like regimental ones, divisional systems were falling into disuse, giving way to autonomous "brigade combat teams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_combat_team)" (BCT), at least in the US Army.
So the primary units could be brigades composed of 4-5 battalions (or regiments if you prefer that flavour), perhaps with some greater administrative unit encompassing them to cover fronts/planets/campaigns.
What are your thoughts?
The Drag and Drop system seems quite suited for having the Classic Organisations or even Reserve Formations and then creating AD Hoc BCTs for specific deployments.
I am tempted to try out having a variety of Modular Formations, Each type held under a "Training Regiment" HQ, and then several sized HQ formations, that can just have the Formation Elements attached of the types needed for the mission deployment, that once the mission is over can be easily disbanded or have the Modular Formations, rotated in and out when they are damaged.
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Hmmmm. And how does that affect academy graduate generation?
Not in the slightest.
Are you sure? I mean, if you add a rank, you have to rename every other one since the new one is added at the top, above Fleet Admiral/General of the Army. And if you remove, say, the bottom one (Major/Lt Cmdr), do the academies begin producing that now-bottom one (Lt Col/Cmdr) in the volumes the previous one appeared? How does the game evaluate how many Ground Combat Command points to give a new/reshuffled rank?
The numbers does not represent number of men but the total "size" of the formations under them. Also the game NEVER refer to number of actual soldiers but units. You could easily have an infantry unit be referring to a fire-team of three soldier or an infantry unit with a CAP is a machine gun team of 5-6 men. Like wise one infantry unit could be a super soldier like a space marine in power armour and a bolter. A light vehicle could be a small walker or a space marine Dreadnought type individual.
The number that each commander can command is their capacity, there is nothing that says that a colonel could not command a divisions... I mean he is capable of it... he just have not attained that rank yet. You probably also could find generals that are not capable of commanding a division even though they have the rank to do so... that is how real life actually works... ;)
While there may be political influence, personal and other factors, ranks are generally a measure of experience in the service, and not just a title. You wouldn't promote a private to command 10,000 men right out of boot camp, if you have any sense.
While Aurora may not consider individual soldiers per se, it does so implicitly in the size/power of units. There's bound to be one value which would roughly represent the influence of a single, average soldier. Perhaps that value is 5, the size of an infantry unit with light armour and personal weapons*. Or perhaps it corresponds to a fire team (4-5 men), since 5 tons of equipment might be too much for a single soldier.
Another possible point of reference is the tank (medium vehicle, medium armour, medium anti-vehicle), which adds up to 62 tons, which might be just enough for the machine itself (taking into account advancements in materials and lower weight than a modern MBT) and a measure of associated supplies and spare parts. Perhaps that's a mech instead, an Adeptus Astartes, or a T-Rex with lasers, but it remains the equivalent of a mainstay tank-like unit of the ground forces by modern standards.
Overall, I'm trying to figure out points of reference to come up with plausibly-sized military units of standard human troops (no mechs, no titanic Space Marines) without running into things like the defeat of what I had designed as an infantry brigade at the hands of what an NPR may call a company of standard human-sized grunts.
*This estimation roughly coincides with the following fragment from the Professional Journal of the United States Army, Volume 24, Issues 1-2 (https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=ysPBxnC94nIC&pg=RA1-PA37&lpg=RA1-PA37&source=bl&ots=0I9w_-geDy&sig=ACfU3U0ztTrQZQX-Q56pPiBfS8tiQsidKA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie_fasr_7oAhW1K7kGHQZjAQ8Q6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) (1944):
(https://i.ibb.co/5WtKYGJ/8ton-soldier.png)
Again, the lesser weight of 5 tons could be attributed to advances in material sciences since WW2.
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While there may be political influence, personal and other factors, ranks are generally a measure of experience in the service, and not just a title. You wouldn't promote a private to command 10,000 men right out of boot camp, if you have any sense.
While Aurora may not consider individual soldiers per se, it does so implicitly in the size/power of units. There's bound to be one value which would roughly represent the influence of a single, average soldier. Perhaps that value is 5, the size of an infantry unit with light armour and personal weapons*. Or perhaps it corresponds to a fire team (4-5 men), since 5 tons of equipment might be too much for a single soldier.
Another possible point of reference is the tank (medium vehicle, medium armour, medium anti-vehicle), which adds up to 62 tons, which might be just enough for the machine itself (taking into account advancements in materials and lower weight than a modern MBT) and a measure of associated supplies and spare parts. Perhaps that's a mech instead, an Adeptus Astartes, or a T-Rex with lasers, but it remains the equivalent of a mainstay tank-like unit of the ground forces by modern standards.
Overall, I'm trying to figure out points of reference to come up with plausibly-sized military units of standard human troops (no mechs, no titanic Space Marines) without running into things like the defeat of what I had designed as an infantry brigade at the hands of what an NPR may call a company of standard human-sized grunts.
*This estimation roughly coincides with the following fragment from the Professional Journal of the United States Army, Volume 24, Issues 1-2 (https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=ysPBxnC94nIC&pg=RA1-PA37&lpg=RA1-PA37&source=bl&ots=0I9w_-geDy&sig=ACfU3U0ztTrQZQX-Q56pPiBfS8tiQsidKA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie_fasr_7oAhW1K7kGHQZjAQ8Q6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) (1944):
(https://i.ibb.co/5WtKYGJ/8ton-soldier.png)
Again, the lesser weight of 5 tons could be attributed to advances in material sciences since WW2.
In terms of leaders it is not uncommon that unsuitable people get awarded a rank they are not really fit to command, happens all the time. In real life we have no access to peoples STATS... ;)
As Trans-Newtonian materials are hundreds if not thousands time more efficient than basic minerals a 5 ton infantry unit probably could be whatever you want it to be. It probably also depend on the species as well... that is why it is so good to use units and not actual soldiers.
But in general I do think that Steve intended one infantry to be one soldier... but in your universe it does not have to be that way.
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In terms of leaders it is not uncommon that unsuitable people get awarded a rank they are not really fit to command, happens all the time. In real life we have no access to peoples STATS... ;)
On the higher side, smaller scale (i.e. Colonel vs. Brigadier) I don't find it unlikely, but on the grand scheme of things you won't usually find large discrepancies. Of course you'll find a difference between officers with experience in administrative work versus combat exposure, but it'll be much harder to find a Captain better suited to command a division than a combat-oriented Brigadier or Colonel.
Anyway, I think the point's been established.
As Trans-Newtonian materials are hundreds if not thousands time more efficient than basic minerals a 5 ton infantry unit probably could be whatever you want it to be. It probably also depend on the species as well... that is why it is so good to use units and not actual soldiers.
But in general I do think that Steve intended one infantry to be one soldier... but in your universe it does not have to be that way.
I try to find a point of reference keeping the handwavium/space magic down to a minimum. Of course it could mean anything I want and have a company of machinegun-toting cyber-chipmunks in a single size unit. But the "reality" of what I feel the necessity to adjust to is Steve's perception and implementation, which in practice (other than his spoken/written word) should be seen in the templates he has prepared for the NPRs.
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Someone pinged me and asked me to comment on the 5 tons per soldier.
I have avoided being specific about individual soldiers or how many crew are required for a tank or a gun. They are just units in the game, so that a 'soldier' or a 'vehicle' can represent anything you want. The 'size' of units is not intended to be physical size, but the transport space required when moving over long distances.
When I am playing, I consider an infantryman to be a single soldier, but that is just my own interpretation, not a rule in the game.
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Someone pinged me and asked me to comment on the 5 tons per soldier.
I have avoided being specific about individual soldiers or how many crew are required for a tank or a gun. They are just units in the game, so that a 'soldier' or a 'vehicle' can represent anything you want. The 'size' of units is not intended to be physical size, but the transport space required when moving over long distances.
When I am playing, I consider an infantryman to be a single soldier, but that is just my own interpretation, not a rule in the game.
Thanks for your input, Steve!
Your vision is important because it's what's behind the AI's force composition. But then, pondering the subject, I don't know to what extent we can perceive that in detail, from the player's perspective. If all we see when we face enemy formations is essentially masses of hit points, armour and damage output, then the freedom of creation becomes more palpable.
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Hmmmm. And how does that affect academy graduate generation?
Not in the slightest.
Are you sure? I mean, if you add a rank, you have to rename every other one since the new one is added at the top, above Fleet Admiral/General of the Army. And if you remove, say, the bottom one (Major/Lt Cmdr), do the academies begin producing that now-bottom one (Lt Col/Cmdr) in the volumes the previous one appeared? How does the game evaluate how many Ground Combat Command points to give a new/reshuffled rank?
Academies don't produce 'ranks'. Academies produce officers, and those officers join your fleet (or army) organization at the lowest rank. When an opening arises, the best available officer is promoted into it.
If you add a rank, you don't "have to" do anything. It doesn't matter if your rank is called Wind Lord, Underpriest, Sky Marshal, Baronet, Delta or Captain.
It also doesn't matter if Captains lead platoons, companies, battalions or regiments. Or brigades. Both the rank and the unit are entirely defined by your fiction and not the software.
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I think you could even make the argument that for example in the 40k universe Space Marine is equal to 2 power armoured units while a Terminator are 3 Heavily Powered Armoured units while an Imperial Guard is 1 regular infantry for example... the size and how many actual soldier each unit or formation have does not have to be equal at all.
You could say that a 12 Infantry Units is equal to 8 well equipped Colonial Marines using standard armour and Personal Weapons while 10 Garrison Militia units using the same equipment is 15 infantrymen.
There are no real hard fast rules for how you can imagine them in your world... this is how I have imagined it when I prepared for my real campaign I will start eventually.
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I'll link to my template post from the development forum:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10116.0 (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10116.0)
It includes quite a few examples of both units and formations that roughly fit 21st century NATO/Russia/China themes. They are not super detailed but rather a fast way to get things sorted.
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I always create a new rank (Captain) for my ground forces, and I have not see any changes related to the Academy. As the new rank is added on the top (for the promotions) and you have to rename the other ranks, the only change is to rename Major to Captain, everything else keeps as they are.
Is it really tenable to go as deep down as platoon level in Aurora... I have so far only worked with Company Level strength formations. At platoon level it seems like the individual formations get too weak and you risk breakthroughs from enemy attack quite often.
I found that platoons can make sense if you are designing space marine formations intended to be used in boarding action but otherwise the lowest I've gone is the company level. I think what GU design needs is a sort of "sub-OOB" design that allows you to pre-design a unit hierarchy using the formations that you have already designed. This means that I could make 5 divisions and not have to do the OOB layout for every single one on training.
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I've also stuck with Platoons as the smallest formation, purely for Boarding action and troops assigned to Naval Vessels (Marine detachments similar to 19th Century Royal Navy).
As well, I've found Steve's weight system to match almost perfectly with a report I was reading from a meeting with Congress and Military personnel. It stated that an Infantry Division would need about 120,000-130,000 short tons of transport capacity, including the personnel and equipment for 15 days. After building some Infantry Divisions, the weight is within margins, if a little on the lighter side.
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I found that platoons can make sense if you are designing space marine formations intended to be used in boarding action but otherwise the lowest I've gone is the company level. I think what GU design needs is a sort of "sub-OOB" design that allows you to pre-design a unit hierarchy using the formations that you have already designed. This means that I could make 5 divisions and not have to do the OOB layout for every single one on training.
What I've done is have a text file where I detail what the OOB looks like down to platoon level, and then have the aggregate totals listed for each step above it (really should have done it in a spreadsheet to automate adjustments, but. . . ). That way I can simply choose to build formations at whatever scale feels appropriate - most of the time I've been building battalions, with some company level attachments for things like STO batteries. (A company of STO platforms is about the same displacement as a battalion, I've found.)
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I think the best thing to base your ground units around is transport capacity.
My base units can all fit in a large troop transport (5000 tons) and the numbers that result are generally inline with how large a battalion would be. I make transport ships with 4 large drop transports to ship 4 battalions and 1 very-small drop transport to house the 100 ton Regimental HQ with 50000 HQ capacity. Garrison units are just 1 formation and take up the whole ship.
On paper at least this seems like a good setup. Regiments can swap out battalions based on need and it's easy to remember 1 ship = 1 regiment = 4 battalions and an HQ. Wonder how it will play in practice.
When I am playing, I consider an infantryman to be a single soldier, but that is just my own interpretation, not a rule in the game.
I hear you about not wanting to take away from the player's interpretation of events by making 1 infantryman = literally 1 infantryman but I do think weights should be tweaked downward a bit to somewhat reflect that thinking. Even if someone were to interpret a single infantryman, an infantryman + all support equipment (tent, food, etc), or a squad or a Korgan or something, 5 tons is still a lot and makes units smaller than I think they should be. I'd propose reducing the weight of units but making armor contribute to said weight. A solider in Power Armor shouldn't weigh as much as a solider in a ballistic vest.
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I can say I would get a kick out of the idea of it being cheaper to drop millions of basic lightly armed troopers.
I will do so anyhow, but I will be happier if its easier to do my thing.
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That 5 tons also allows said infantryman to breathe vacuum and survive any temperature environment.
Of course, ideally, the extra capabilities would add weight to a unit (and that there would be a tech line to reduce that weight) and we couldn't use units without such capabilities on rocks that lack atmosphere or have extreme temperatures and so on.
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Is it really tenable to go as deep down as platoon level in Aurora... I have so far only worked with Company Level strength formations. At platoon level it seems like the individual formations get too weak and you risk breakthroughs from enemy attack quite often.
I have only just begun to scratch the surface of Aurora 'ground' combat and I have thus far made absolutely zero attempt to base any of my troop formations on any sort of realistic command structure. However, in terms of troop size, I do use small groups of about 200-250 tons for ship boarding purposes (or at least, I plan to). I do NOT have any data on how formations of this size actually perform in combat... yet. However, here is a typical boarding squad from my latest campaign:
Light Assault Mech Squadron
Transport Size: 250 tons
Build Cost: 428.6 BP
35x Light Assault Mech
1x Light Command Mech
3x Light Supply Mech
#####################
Light Assault Mech
Transport Size (tons) 6 Cost 9.89 Armour 16 Hit Points 8
Annual Maintenance Cost 1.2 Resupply Cost 1.3
Improved Personal Weapons: Shots 1 Penetration 12 Damage 10
Boarding Combat
Desert Warfare
Extreme Pressure Combat
Extreme Temperature Combat
High Gravity Combat
Jungle Warfare
Low Gravity Combat
Mountain Warfare
Rift Valley Warfare
Vendarite 0.24
Development Cost 494
#########################
Light Command Mech
Transport Size (tons) 10 Cost 32.96 Armour 16 Hit Points 8
Annual Maintenance Cost 4.1 Resupply Cost 0
Headquarters: Capacity 1,000
Boarding Combat
Desert Warfare
Extreme Pressure Combat
Extreme Temperature Combat
High Gravity Combat
Jungle Warfare
Low Gravity Combat
Mountain Warfare
Rift Valley Warfare
Non-Combat Class
Vendarite 0.8
Development Cost 1,648
########################
Light Supply Mech
Transport Size (tons) 10 Cost 16.48 Armour 16 Hit Points 8
Annual Maintenance Cost 2.1 Resupply Cost 0
Logistics Module - Small: Ground Supply Points 100
Boarding Combat
Desert Warfare
Extreme Pressure Combat
Extreme Temperature Combat
High Gravity Combat
Jungle Warfare
Low Gravity Combat
Mountain Warfare
Rift Valley Warfare
Non-Combat Class
Vendarite 0.4
Development Cost 824
[/code]
I am RPing that each light mech is manned by one pilot, so a squadron as described above requires 39 soldiers. So that would be approximately a platoon sized formation using the previously linked wiki article as reference. This formation is designed to fit in a small troop boarding transport module which can carry 250 tons max. I don't personally see any reason to make any formations smaller than this. Yet.
I can't remember the sizes of the formations used in Starship Troopers (the book), but that is probably the direction I'm going to head when it comes to my ground combat unit and formation designs.
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That 5 tons also allows said infantryman to breathe vacuum and survive any temperature environment.
Of course, ideally, the extra capabilities would add weight to a unit (and that there would be a tech line to reduce that weight) and we couldn't use units without such capabilities on rocks that lack atmosphere or have extreme temperatures and so on.
Ideally yes, I believe that is a capability you can add to them as well, having played around with that. I don't know if extreme temperature and such is just a bonus or if its a hard limit or not.
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I believe the game makes a distinction between troops being able to survive in a particular game environment and troops being able to conduct successful combat operations in a particular game environment.
Example 1: Unrest on Luna. Solution is to deploy colonial marines from Terra. Said marines need no special equipment. You can transport a 'basic' marine squadron from Terra to Luna and they will be able to survive on the surface even without the special 'extreme' temperature/pressure research options.
Example 2: Hostile demonic aliens on Luna. Solution is again to deploy colonial marines from Terra. Said marines might be able to land but they will get slaughtered gruesomely by hostile aliens unless they have low grav, extreme temp, and extreme pressure tech installed.
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Is it really tenable to go as deep down as platoon level in Aurora... I have so far only worked with Company Level strength formations. At platoon level it seems like the individual formations get too weak and you risk breakthroughs from enemy attack quite often.
I can't remember the sizes of the formations used in Starship Troopers (the book), but that is probably the direction I'm going to head when it comes to my ground combat unit and formation designs.
The basic operational unit in Starship Troopers (book version) was the platoon. The platoon was the smallest operational unit with direct attached transport, in this case, the TFCT Roger Young, which is listed as a "transport corvette" which could carry the platoon and support staff needed to sustain them.
The largest formations described were divisional. Three platoons to a company, four companies to a battalion, three battalions to a regiment, three regiments to a division.
This paralleled a lot of US organizations at the time the book was written (1959).
That all comes from the original Starship Troopers board game from Avalon Hill (1976) which had a pretty good amount of detail on the operational units.
Much like Steve, I consider my troops to be single soldiers. Right now I have been basing most of my troop organization around the company as my smallest operational unit. Mainly cause its flexible in terms of attaching officers, since they could be Lieutenants up to Captains, and its generally the smallest conventional formation from an operational perspective, where you see adjunct staff and attached units. Doesnt have to be that way, just found it convenient and easy to wrap my head around, since I was already familiar with the concepts. :)
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Is it really tenable to go as deep down as platoon level in Aurora... I have so far only worked with Company Level strength formations. At platoon level it seems like the individual formations get too weak and you risk breakthroughs from enemy attack quite often.
I can't remember the sizes of the formations used in Starship Troopers (the book), but that is probably the direction I'm going to head when it comes to my ground combat unit and formation designs.
The basic operational unit in Starship Troopers (book version) was the platoon. The platoon was the smallest operational unit with direct attached transport, in this case, the TFCT Roger Young, which is listed as a "transport corvette" which could carry the platoon and support staff needed to sustain them.
The largest formations described were divisional. Three platoons to a company, four companies to a battalion, three battalions to a regiment, three regiments to a division.
This paralleled a lot of US organizations at the time the book was written (1959).
That all comes from the original Starship Troopers board game from Avalon Hill (1976) which had a pretty good amount of detail on the operational units.
Much like Steve, I consider my troops to be single soldiers. Right now I have been basing most of my troop organization around the company as my smallest operational unit. Mainly cause its flexible in terms of attaching officers, since they could be Lieutenants up to Captains, and its generally the smallest conventional formation from an operational perspective, where you see adjunct staff and attached units. Doesnt have to be that way, just found it convenient and easy to wrap my head around, since I was already familiar with the concepts. :)
Perfect, I am on the right track then.
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I've taken the standard NATO OB to develop a lot of my own organizational TOE, at least on the army side. I start at Company and work as high as Army (haven't gotten far enough in game to get to that point yet...), but I've tweaked the sizes so a Division comes out to a size of about 5000, Battalion about 5 times that, Regiment 5 times that, and so on. This also lines up roughly with what I see for my ranks (I'm using US ranks, yes), and at a glance generally lines up with the Ground Combat Command sizes in the game. (I typically see Majors averaging 5k, Lt. Colonels about 15-25k, Colonels tend to be over 100k, etc.)
In some cases, I will have smaller elements (Space Marines, for example), and label them accordingly. But these are more specialized units. Here's my general breakout:
Company -> Major -> 5k max
Battalion -> Lt. Col -> 25k
Regiment -> Col. -> 125k
Brigade -> Brig. Gen. ->625k
Division -> Major Gen. -> 3 mil
Corps -> Lt. Gen -> 15 mil
Army -> General -> 75 mil
For naval, I'm starting to try to break ships out by size - on the warship end. Since a fighter shouldn't be more than 300-400 tons (I think it is), then I look at them like this:
500 - 5000 tons - Corvette
5000 - 15000 - Destroyer
15000 - 25000 - Light Cruiser
25000 - 35000 - Cruiser
35000 - 50000 - Heavy Cruiser
50000 - 75000 - Battleship
75000+ - Dreadnought
Light Carriers would be between 25k and 50k, Regular carriers between 50k and 75k, and Fleet carriers > 75k.
I've not gotten over about 30k yet, so most of this is untested hypothesis... I get a game started and then a patch comes out! :)
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I've taken the standard NATO OB to develop a lot of my own organizational TOE, at least on the army side. I start at Company and work as high as Army (haven't gotten far enough in game to get to that point yet...), but I've tweaked the sizes so a Division comes out to a size of about 5000, Battalion about 5 times that, Regiment 5 times that, and so on. This also lines up roughly with what I see for my ranks (I'm using US ranks, yes), and at a glance generally lines up with the Ground Combat Command sizes in the game. (I typically see Majors averaging 5k, Lt. Colonels about 15-25k, Colonels tend to be over 100k, etc.)
In some cases, I will have smaller elements (Space Marines, for example), and label them accordingly. But these are more specialized units. Here's my general breakout:
Company -> Major -> 5k max
Battalion -> Lt. Col -> 25k
Regiment -> Col. -> 125k
Brigade -> Brig. Gen. ->625k
Division -> Major Gen. -> 3 mil
Corps -> Lt. Gen -> 15 mil
Army -> General -> 75 mil
For naval, I'm starting to try to break ships out by size - on the warship end. Since a fighter shouldn't be more than 300-400 tons (I think it is), then I look at them like this:
500 - 5000 tons - Corvette
5000 - 15000 - Destroyer
15000 - 25000 - Light Cruiser
25000 - 35000 - Cruiser
35000 - 50000 - Heavy Cruiser
50000 - 75000 - Battleship
75000+ - Dreadnought
Light Carriers would be between 25k and 50k, Regular carriers between 50k and 75k, and Fleet carriers > 75k.
I've not gotten over about 30k yet, so most of this is untested hypothesis... I get a game started and then a patch comes out! :)
You might consider modifying your naval hierarchy somewhat to include fast attack craft (FACs). The game makes a distinction for ships less than 1000 tons whereby such ships do not require a bridge component. I do not believe ships larger than 500 tons can be produced at fighter factories however.
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I believe the game makes a distinction between troops being able to survive in a particular game environment and troops being able to conduct successful combat operations in a particular game environment.
Example 1: Unrest on Luna. Solution is to deploy colonial marines from Terra. Said marines need no special equipment. You can transport a 'basic' marine squadron from Terra to Luna and they will be able to survive on the surface even without the special 'extreme' temperature/pressure research options.
Example 2: Hostile demonic aliens on Luna. Solution is again to deploy colonial marines from Terra. Said marines might be able to land but they will get slaughtered gruesomely by hostile aliens unless they have low grav, extreme temp, and extreme pressure tech installed.
I discovered from other posts that my understanding of the 'extreme' unit traits was flawed. It seems the 'extreme' and 'gravity' traits apply only to vehicles and the 'warfare' and 'genetic enhancement' traits apply only to infantry.
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I've created a Motorstrelki regiment based on the document found on the OP.
(https://i.imgur.com/FsIi5Er.png)
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Yowzas, that is an intense OOB! How do you resupply it after long combats?
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Yowzas, that is an intense OOB! How do you resupply it after long combats?
Combining combat ineffective units together to make new ones, dedicated reserve formations to lift replacements from, large reserve of logistic supplies.
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Yowzas, that is an intense OOB! How do you resupply it after long combats?
Combining combat ineffective units together to make new ones, dedicated reserve formations to lift replacements from, large reserve of logistic supplies.
What do you mean by combining? Just put them under same Hierarchy Command? I don't think you can merge 2 units, or am I wrong?
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Yowzas, that is an intense OOB! How do you resupply it after long combats?
Combining combat ineffective units together to make new ones, dedicated reserve formations to lift replacements from, large reserve of logistic supplies.
What do you mean by combining? Just put them under same Hierarchy Command? I don't think you can merge 2 units, or am I wrong?
If you tick the "show elements" checkbox you can actually drag and drop the elements of two formations across eachother. Bonus points if you tick "amount popup" which lets you determine how much of an element to transfer.
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@Marski
The only thing I wonder about this pretty nice formation is how you find commanders to lead them all. I suppose you have a huge Academy program going as well... ;)
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@Marski
The only thing I wonder about this pretty nice formation is how you find commanders to lead them all. I suppose you have a huge Academy program going as well... ;)
Level 10 academy at earth, level 6 at Luna, level 10 at Venus. All with ground force commander as academy commandants.
I can just about fill the three regiments I have, but I've left a suggestion in the suggestions thread to Steve regarding rate of new officer navy/ground officers being relative to the amount of ranks.
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@Marski
The only thing I wonder about this pretty nice formation is how you find commanders to lead them all. I suppose you have a huge Academy program going as well... ;)
Level 10 academy at earth, level 6 at Luna, level 10 at Venus. All with ground force commander as academy commandants.
I can just about fill the three regiments I have, but I've left a suggestion in the suggestions thread to Steve regarding rate of new officer navy/ground officers being relative to the amount of ranks.
Yes... I think the whole system should be changed into more of a points system so you can get the officers that you need and promotion is based on demand rather than any set rate or ratio, this is a pretty limiting system.
If you need more ground officers than naval officers you should be able to use the academies to do that, the academy should just produce a certain amount of possible officers every year but the player should pretty much decide what type of officer they should get and how they promote should be more about demand than anything else.
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@Marski
The only thing I wonder about this pretty nice formation is how you find commanders to lead them all. I suppose you have a huge Academy program going as well... ;)
Level 10 academy at earth, level 6 at Luna, level 10 at Venus. All with ground force commander as academy commandants.
I can just about fill the three regiments I have, but I've left a suggestion in the suggestions thread to Steve regarding rate of new officer navy/ground officers being relative to the amount of ranks.
Yes... I think the while system should be changed into more of a points system so you can get the officers that you need and promotion is based on demand rather than any set rate or ratio, this is a pretty limiting system.
If you need more ground officers than naval officers you should be able to use the academies to do that, the academy should just produce a certain amount of possible officers every year but the player should pretty much decide what type of officer they should get and how they promote should be more about demand than anything else.
A while ago I posted in the suggestions thread an idea which would split the military academy into multiple installations. One for scientists, one for ground officers, another for naval officers and one last one for civie admins. They would each only create characters of that profession and the academy commandant would instead specialize it by skill / specialization for scientists.
So a missiles/kinetics scientist commandant increases the chance more scientists of that field come.
A GO with ground artillery skill at high levels trains officers with better artillery skill.
A NO with high tactical bonus trains other officers with higher tactical bonus.
A civilian admin with strong mining skill trains admins with more mining skill.
Although this would extend the overall number of installation I think it would confer much better control to the player and work well with the way academy naming works. Right now I have a civilian admin who is graduated from the Mars Ground Combat Academy with a ground officer as commandant which feels somewhat weird.
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http://niehorster.org/000_admin/000oob.htm
Various countries during ww2, some more detailed then others.
Holy sh--- that's really helpful!
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I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but here (https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-2016/reports/51535-fsprimer.pdf) is a primer on the force structure of the US Army and the composition of the standard Brigade Combat Teams.
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I have done fairly extensive research, combined with personal experience, to create the most in-depth Order of Battle for a United States Marine Corps Division that you can find without reading pages of Marine Corps Orders. Feel free to use it to create as in depth of an OOB ingame as you would like.
Enjoy!!
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I have done fairly extensive research, combined with personal experience, to create the most in-depth Order of Battle for a United States Marine Corps Division that you can find without reading pages of Marine Corps Orders. Feel free to use it to create as in depth of an OOB ingame as you would like.
Enjoy!!
Excellent contribution, thank you.
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So in V2.2.0, radiology decontamination will be an actual thing, meaning this section in the OP file will actually become part of the game;
(https://i.imgur.com/B2prWp2.png)
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Even greater news, making realistic ground forces will receive a massive quality-of-life improvements;
Ground Force Organizations
A new tab called Organization has been added to the Ground Forces window.
This has two tree view controls. The first, on the right, lists all existing formation templates and their elements. The second, on the left, is for creating organizational hierarchies for ground forces.
To create an organization, you press a button called Create Org and enter the name of your organization. This creates a node without any units that acts in a similar way to a naval admin node. With the top level in place, you can drag and drop formation templates from the right hand side to create any depth of hierarchal organization.
For example, you could create an organization called Infantry Division. Under that you would drag the template with the divisional assets (which might also be called Infantry Division, or Division HQ, etc.). The admin nodes are green, like naval admins, while all nodes containing an actual template are yellow-white. Under the divisional assets, you might drag your infantry regiment template four times, plus perhaps an STO regiment.
You might also drag several battalions under each regiment, but there is an easier way to do that. When you drag nodes on the treeview, anything with an existing parent is moved, but anything without a parent creates a copy instead.
That means, you can create smaller, or lower level, organizations and then drag copies of that entire org into a different org.
For example, you could create a regiment org with a HQ formation template directly under the admin node and then four battalions under the HQ. Then you create a division org, add a division HQ formation template, then drag-copy three regiment orgs under the divisional HQ. When you drag-copy an admin node into another org, the admin node itself is not transferred, so in this example the regimental HQ formation templates of the regimental org would move directly under the divisional HQ (along with their subordinate battalions.
You can set field positions for formation templates in the organization in a similar way to active formations.
Once you have the org created, you can choose a population and add everything in the org to the build queue. The build tasks will retain the organizational hierarchy and the resulting ground formations will assemble into the same org once they are built. They will adopt the specified field positions. Even if you change or remove the organization after issuing the build order, the build tasks will remember the hierarchy and the field positions. The build order will work down the hierarchy so each new formation should have the correct parent waiting when it is built. Changing the build queue manually may prevent this working correctly.
There is also an 'Instant Build' option that can be activated by the SM and will build the entire org instantly with hierarchy and field positions.
The reason for having the admin node is to allow different configurations of similar formations. For example, if the division HQ formation was the top node, you would only have one org under that division HQ. With admin nodes, you can re-use the same top-level templates in multiple similar nodes. You could also have more than one formation directly under the admin node. For example, you could have ten boarding forces under the admin node and build them all with one click.
Using Copy + Update (see earlier post) to create new formation templates based on improved technology will replace the existing templates in the organizational structures with the updated templates.
This screenshot shows simple regimental and divisional organizations, but these could be made very detailed. The 'Infantry Regiment' org was dragged on to the 'Divisional Assets' three times.
The second screenshot shows the OOB view after using the Instant option on the 'Infantry Division' org.
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Invicta just released a great new video on the US Army (WW2) Rifleman Company size & organization.
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I have done fairly extensive research, combined with personal experience, to create the most in-depth Order of Battle for a United States Marine Corps Division that you can find without reading pages of Marine Corps Orders. Feel free to use it to create as in depth of an OOB ingame as you would like.
Enjoy!!
Thanks to you, I managed to create this for my upcoming story:
(https://i.imgur.com/uiLNWSu.png)
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Thanks to you, I managed to create this for my upcoming story:
(https://i.imgur.com/uiLNWSu.png)
Does the new organization system make it viable to make units this granular? I know smaller unit sizes aren't the best for combat, but I just started up a new conventional playthrough and paused now that I'm about to design and deploy my first colonial forces. Does it work well enough to let me design all the way down to company and lower without giving me carpel tunnel and bloodshot eyes? ;D
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Does the new organization system make it viable to make units this granular? I know smaller unit sizes aren't the best for combat, but I just started up a new conventional playthrough and paused now that I'm about to design and deploy my first colonial forces. Does it work well enough to let me design all the way down to company and lower without giving me carpel tunnel and bloodshot eyes? ;D
I feel its more physically viable since you can set formations to have a default field position as well as have entire organizations be produced + placed in a formation. Off the top of my head I can only imagine issues with the actual gameplay mechanics of ground combat.
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Does the new organization system make it viable to make units this granular? I know smaller unit sizes aren't the best for combat, but I just started up a new conventional playthrough and paused now that I'm about to design and deploy my first colonial forces. Does it work well enough to let me design all the way down to company and lower without giving me carpel tunnel and bloodshot eyes? ;D
I feel its more physically viable since you can set formations to have a default field position as well as have entire organizations be produced + placed in a formation. Off the top of my head I can only imagine issues with the actual gameplay mechanics of ground combat.
Mechanically, small formations like this are extremely vulnerable to breakthroughs. Usually a formation size above 5,000 tons or so is enough to mitigate this.
In my experience, the bigger issue is commanders: you need multiple millions of tons of ground units to invade an NPR homeworld, and you can only generate so many generals to command those formations. It makes more sense to build 20,000-ton brigades than 5,000-ton battalions if the latter means a large fraction of your units will not benefit from a commander.
Also, note that if you use small formations like companies, you still need to manually assign supports for each e.g. artillery company, which can still be a lot of clicking and dragging. With large formations this is minimized.
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Yes, note that for artillery I did not go below battalion size so that in combat I only have to assign 4 formations per Marine division. As for breakthroughs, the risk is real but it isn't extremely decisive. When I ran those tests back at C# launch, bigger formations trumped smaller formations thanks to breakthroughs but the statistical difference was small enough that even a single tech level difference in armour and weapon will completely negate it. Heck, probably even having good generals over bad ones could be enough.
Big help with Organizations is that you only have to create them once. Then, just build from top level and the game does the OOB for you as the formations are built.
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With the limited number of commanders, what if the company level (or whatever low-level you choose) doesn't have a HQ element? Can they still benefit from the higher formation's bonus, or is it like naval admin command where they need an unbroken chain?
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With the limited number of commanders, what if the company level (or whatever low-level you choose) doesn't have a HQ element? Can they still benefit from the higher formation's bonus, or is it like naval admin command where they need an unbroken chain?
You must have an HQ and commander in a formation to receive and, I believe, to transmit bonuses. As of 2.2.0.
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Don't think I've seen these here yet:
https://tmg110.tripod.com/usarmy_ir.htm
https://tmg110.tripod.com/usarmy_id.htm
They come with pretty exact diagrams of what is in US WWII units:
(https://tmg110.tripod.com/ORBAT/USIR3.bmp)
(https://tmg110.tripod.com/ORBAT/USARC1.bmp)
At the first link there are also exact values for the number of men in a antitank or cannon company. I'm now basing the mixture of what will be in my smallest unit on this. The regiment is a bit too small for my tastes (2500 tons) so I may decide to increase my base unit to a division of 3 regiments (I'm guessing that will be around 10000 tons)
(https://imgur.com/LUcs38X.jpg)
EDIT: I think this is the top level site where you can navigate to these pages: https://tmg110.tripod.com/mil_histmp.htm
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Made Soviet Front formation starting from company level as a test.
Discovered that it had very adverse effect on game performance, turns take much longer even at day 1 of campaign.
(https://i.imgur.com/aPHCuIm.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/n9833E7.png)
very expensive
(https://i.imgur.com/15sl4Gd.png)
send me a message if you want the test scenario db
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The regiment is a bit too small for my tastes (2500 tons)
unless I read them wrong, your probably missing at least 350-400 PW units in the regiment.
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Invicta has done it again:
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Real life military organizations, equipment and personnel.
True Size of Space Marine Chapter
Time travel confirmed.
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Real life military organizations, equipment and personnel.
True Size of Space Marine Chapter
Time travel confirmed.
shoot, i gave myself away... welp nothing to do now but exterminatus