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Posted by: fcharton
« on: December 27, 2011, 06:54:42 AM »

We're on much smaller scales here than galactic radius, unless I misunderstood something, we're talking of a 100 LY radius sphere around Sol, and a few thousand stars, compared to hundreds of billions in our galaxy.

Francois
Posted by: chrislocke2000
« on: December 27, 2011, 06:35:41 AM »

Quote
Well, game balance wise, that could be fine, but that'd seriously hurt my suspension of disbelief.

I don't see a problem with reaching an edge, isn't this just representative of the confines of a single galaxy with stars in the next galaxy over just being too far away to be practically reachable? I guess it's just a scale piece in that you don't have all the stars in the milky way on the map?
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 27, 2011, 06:18:44 AM »

So there's more useful systems on the edges, while in turn, starting outwards will result in "reaching the border" sooner, where there is nothing left?
Well, game balance wise, that could be fine, but that'd seriously hurt my suspension of disbelief.

Well, not necessarily more useful systems. With regard to the fact that starting near the edge will mean you reach a border where there are no more stars - unless I create an infinite universe then there is always going to be an edge.

Steve
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: December 27, 2011, 04:50:19 AM »

So there's more useful systems on the edges, while in turn, starting outwards will result in "reaching the border" sooner, where there is nothing left?
Well, game balance wise, that could be fine, but that'd seriously hurt my suspension of disbelief.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 26, 2011, 04:48:25 PM »

I see your point.   The one thing I'm wondering about is the effect the change in stellar density may have on game play.   My feeling is that the 3D to 2D projection, where you 'fold' all stars over and below onto the horizon, will reduce average distances between systems*, except distances to Sol, which are kept at correct 3D values.  Also, this reduction will not take place in a homogeneous way.   The further you are from Sol, the more "shrinkage" you get.   

In other words, the problem is less that density or distances change, but that the universe becomes "centred" around Sol, which would be further away from other systems (because it is the only star with "unshrunk" distances).   In contrast, your typical NPR race, which begins the game far from Sol would almost always live in a denser area of the galaxy.  This might create some imbalance, no?

But then, this certainly can be tested, by generating a large "real star" universe, and calculating some indicator like 'average distance to the nearest N stars', for a significant number of stars, and plotting it against distance to Sol. 

* this is on average, of course, for two systems very close to each other right at the "top" of the sky, distance can actually be vastly increased

I am playing a 3000 system real stars game at the moment for test purposes. Because we can't detect smaller stars at greater distances, the density remains fairly constant across the 100 LY radius. The issue becomes the decreasing number of red dwarf stars as you move outwards, although I still don't really know how significant an issue that will be long term

Steve
Posted by: fcharton
« on: December 26, 2011, 02:51:08 PM »

I see your point.   The one thing I'm wondering about is the effect the change in stellar density may have on game play.   My feeling is that the 3D to 2D projection, where you 'fold' all stars over and below onto the horizon, will reduce average distances between systems*, except distances to Sol, which are kept at correct 3D values.  Also, this reduction will not take place in a homogeneous way.   The further you are from Sol, the more "shrinkage" you get.   

In other words, the problem is less that density or distances change, but that the universe becomes "centred" around Sol, which would be further away from other systems (because it is the only star with "unshrunk" distances).   In contrast, your typical NPR race, which begins the game far from Sol would almost always live in a denser area of the galaxy.  This might create some imbalance, no?

But then, this certainly can be tested, by generating a large "real star" universe, and calculating some indicator like 'average distance to the nearest N stars', for a significant number of stars, and plotting it against distance to Sol. 

Francois

* this is on average, of course, for two systems very close to each other right at the "top" of the sky, distance can actually be vastly increased

Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 26, 2011, 10:34:04 AM »

I think given the option between:

a) Accurate distances from Sol
b) Accurate direction from Sol
c) Higher stellar density than reality
d) Incorrect distances between stars

or

a) Order of distance correct but not absolute distance
b) Accurate direction
c) Realistic stellar density
d) Incorrect distances between stars, although a more realistic average distance.

My preference is the former, although of course this is based on my personal bias of which factors are more important. I tend to think in terms of what the average player would accept in terms of the suspension of disbelief and also how I would mention star systems in fiction. The main one for me is accurate distance followed by accurate direction, so this factor drives the method I use to generate the map. The vast majority of players wouldn't know if stellar density or distances between stars (other than Sol) is correct.

However, it may be possible to generate the alternative as well. I'll have to look at how easily it would fit into the galaxy generation.

Steve
Posted by: fcharton
« on: December 26, 2011, 09:54:08 AM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=4053.  msg44867#msg44867 date=1324902914
if I generate a random map and then assign names/star types based on distance and change the bearing to match the real one - isn't that a more complex method of achieving what I already have?

Not quite.   Your method will keep correct bearing, type, and distance, while projecting a 3D sphere onto a 2D disk.   This will increase star density by a factor proportional to the distance of the sun.  It will also make systems (save Sol) closer to each other (due to the absent third dimension). 

Mine keeps the type and bearing, but allows the distance to vary from the actual value (only keeping the systems sorted with respect to their distance to Sol).   This way, the clustering caused by the move from 3D to 2D, and the resulting asymetry of star density (ie its increase as one moves away from Sol), are corrected.   You can also adjust the density to keep distances between stars more realistic (although I don't think you can completely eliminate the "shrinking effect" due to the projection). 

Note, though, that the clustering will probably be reduced if some the less bright stars are absent from the catalogue you are using.  But this means that such systems should be added, or the star type distribution will be wrong (ie biased in favour of the larger/more luminous systems).

Francois


Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: December 26, 2011, 09:19:13 AM »

No, because the range from Sol will be slightly random, and some stars might be missing if the random density doesn't equal the actual density.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 26, 2011, 06:35:14 AM »

You can do better than that: just randomize positions, and assign real names and properties according to distance.    This way, you get plausible distances, correct class, mass and names.   

I believe you could even change the bearings to their correct value (in your 2D projection system, that is).  Such random corrections would not change overall density.   

To summarize, the procedure would be :
1- generate a random set of nameless, massless and classless stars, according to some prior density (controlled by game parameters)
2- sort the systems according to their distance to the sun, and associate each one with a real star, thus determining name, class and mass
3- change the bearing of those stars, to match those of their real namesakes (therefore maintaining the constellations in order, a good thing since many stars are named from their constellation)

I haven't done the maths, but I believe that so long you don't change the distances from step one, you remain in line with the original density.   

Francois

OK, I am probably missing something here :) but if I generate a random map and then assign names/star types based on distance and change the bearing to match the real one - isn't that a more complex method of achieving what I already have?

Steve
Posted by: Ominous
« on: December 21, 2011, 11:42:48 PM »

Quote from: fcharton link=topic=4053. msg44790#msg44790 date=1324418238
You can do better than that: just randomize positions, and assign real names and properties according to distance.     This way, you get plausible distances, correct class, mass and names.    

I believe you could even change the bearings to their correct value (in your 2D projection system, that is).   Such random corrections would not change overall density.    

To summarize, the procedure would be :
1- generate a random set of nameless, massless and classless stars, according to some prior density (controlled by game parameters)
2- sort the systems according to their distance to the sun, and associate each one with a real star, thus determining name, class and mass
3- change the bearing of those stars, to match those of their real namesakes (therefore maintaining the constellations in order, a good thing since many stars are named from their constellation)

I haven't done the maths, but I believe that so long you don't change the distances from step one, you remain in line with the original density.    

Francois

I like this idea.   While players will be able to tell whether a system has the name of a real star, the correct number of stars, and so forth, few will be able to tell whether the stars are placed accurately on a grid.   I don't see it taxing the suspension of disbelief for the vast majority of players.
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 21, 2011, 06:48:54 AM »

You mean an option to take the list of system names from the real stars table in order of distance from Sol and apply them to the systems in a random map games in their order of distance from Sol?

Steve
Yeah, that. 

A bit like a random map, but without crazy names. 
Posted by: fcharton
« on: December 20, 2011, 03:57:18 PM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=4053.   msg44774#msg44774 date=1324405344
I wouldn't be keen on random systems with the only element of 'real stars' being the idea of naming them based on order of proximity.    That is almost the same as random stars.    The whole point of real stars is using the actual mass and spectral class of each star and having them in the correct xy direction.   

You can do better than that: just randomize positions, and assign real names and properties according to distance.    This way, you get plausible distances, correct class, mass and names.   

I believe you could even change the bearings to their correct value (in your 2D projection system, that is).  Such random corrections would not change overall density.   

To summarize, the procedure would be :
1- generate a random set of nameless, massless and classless stars, according to some prior density (controlled by game parameters)
2- sort the systems according to their distance to the sun, and associate each one with a real star, thus determining name, class and mass
3- change the bearing of those stars, to match those of their real namesakes (therefore maintaining the constellations in order, a good thing since many stars are named from their constellation)

I haven't done the maths, but I believe that so long you don't change the distances from step one, you remain in line with the original density.   

Francois
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 20, 2011, 01:15:11 PM »

Can we have this as a random map option?  Please?  =)

You mean an option to take the list of system names from the real stars table in order of distance from Sol and apply them to the systems in a random map games in their order of distance from Sol?

Steve
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 20, 2011, 12:37:34 PM »

I wouldn't be keen on random systems with the only element of 'real stars' being the idea of naming them based on order of proximity. That is almost the same as random stars. The whole point of real stars is using the actual mass and spectral class of each star and having them in the correct xy direction.
Can we have this as a random map option?  Please?  =)