Author Topic: fast fighter, equal speed missile  (Read 1750 times)

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Offline Michael Sandy (OP)

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fast fighter, equal speed missile
« on: February 22, 2017, 06:01:40 PM »
As an alternative to box launchers, a design idea I have seen mentioned a few times is a fast fighter which launches missiles of the same speed.  The idea is that all the missiles arrive at the same time, each in their own volley, overwhelming point defense.

At what tech level does it become practical?  At what tech level are the fighters going to have enough of a speed edge over equal tech opponents that missiles at their speed would be effective?

Does this design concept allow you to make effective missile fighters before developing box launchers?

Lets see:
10 HS fighter budget
5 HS boosted engine
.5 HS fuel (might need to skimp here)
1 HS Missile launcher, at reload rate 3, that is 1 missile every 10 seconds, can shoot through a magazine in 200 seconds.
3 HS some combination of missile fire control and magazine.  Shorter range fire control and larger magazine could work, but longer range, smaller magazine, would allow more survivability, more missions.  And use up a lot more fuel.
.5 HS armor, crew quarters

Reducing the size of the engine slightly gives a lot more payload room, but reduces the effectiveness of the attack because it reduces the speed of the missiles that match the design.

I contemplated a reduced size 2 launcher design.  At reload 4, it would fire every 30 seconds, take 300 seconds to shoot through a magazine.  The range and performance of size 2 missiles might be worth it, even with the reduced payload.

Part of my dilemma in designing this is the difficulty of getting a long enough ranged missile fire control on the fighter without taking up so much HS that there isn't enough magazine room to make it practical.  So I am thinking the best way to design the fighter for a particular tech level is assume 1 HS for the fire control, and design everything, missile, fighter speed, around that.
 

Offline lennson

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Re: fast fighter, equal speed missile
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2017, 06:39:52 PM »
One consideration is that you may need to put some agility on the missiles to get a descent hit chance if enemy ships are also using partially boosted engines. Because of how missiles get a higher maximum engine multiplier for a given tech level they are typically much faster than any similar tech target, which is enough to give them a reasonable hit change. However, by restricting the speed of the missiles they could have trouble hitting targets.

Regarding the fire control issue, you could also consider using this idea for a FAC so that fire-control is a smaller percent of the whole craft.
 

Offline Michael Sandy (OP)

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Re: fast fighter, equal speed missile
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2017, 06:43:17 PM »
Box launchers yield 6.66 MSP per HS. 3 HS of box launcher could fire a total of 20 MSP of missile.

A 1 HS missile launcher + 2 HS of magazines would yield 13.33 MSP per HS.  A 1.5 HS reduced size 2 missile launcher with 1.5 HS of magazines would yield 10 MSP per HS.

The mission requirements are different, however.  The steady fire fighter would have to keep closing for 3-5 minutes after opening fire, where the box launcher could simply maintain range for their fire control after firing.  And the box launcher fighter could fire much heavier missiles, which could have both boosted engines and range, so a strike from them would arrive much sooner.

So there are a couple of strategic questions here:
Are steady fire fighters effective before box launcher tech?  Box launchers take a bit to research, if the same points went into missile or drive tech, that is a big quality difference early on.

And are steady fire fighters (need a catchy name for the design type) effective after box launchers become available, at least versus opponents with known speed and sized ships?

I note that after box launchers become available, regular launchers are only competitive if the total MSP available is larger, perhaps much larger.  So magazine space equal to the launcher space, if not more.
 

Offline Michael Sandy (OP)

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Re: fast fighter, equal speed missile
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 06:58:38 PM »
Yeah, I was figuring about .25 MSP engine, .1 msp fuel, .15 msp agility and the rest warhead.  Of course, at low tech levels, you aren't getting much accuracy per .1 msp of agility.  At low tech levels, size 1 missiles are going to be sand blasters no matter how you build them.

Part of the strategic theory is make lots of cheap relatively low boost missiles, capable of overwhelming AMM based missile defenses on a cost basis.

Of course, fast PD fighters could chew through all of these missiles, if their speed is also equal to that of the missiles.  So if these fighters could have a secondary fire control for PD role or anti-fighter role that would give them more versatility at the expense of throw weight.
 

Iranon

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Re: fast fighter, equal speed missile
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 07:04:39 PM »
What would really kill this approach is area defence on a fast retreating ship.
The AI is unlikely to do that, so I find the approach quite viable at Ion or early Magneto-Plasma  tech (and as I favour engine concepts over other lines, that is quite early). Hit chances will be poor, but will be compensated by larger than usual warhead. We don't really need to worry about PD;mAMMs may work somewhat with sufficient range... but at best the enemy is trading size-1 missiles 1:1 at an unfavourable rate.

There is nothing special that requires the launching craft to be a fighter. Small sensor footprint is nice, but large fighter vs. small FAC makes no difference in operations. Size 2 missiles isn't too attractive imo; keep in mind that with the low speed target fuel efficiency of larger missile engines matters less.

Example from another thread, 8k techs + ion drive:

Code: [Select]
Tortoise class Interceptor    400 tons     7 Crew     90.8 BP      TCS 8  TH 96  EM 0
12000 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 1
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 80%    IFR 1.1%    1YR 7    5YR 104    Max Repair 21 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.3 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 19   

24 EP Ion Drive (4)    Power 24    Fuel Use 336.02%    Signature 24    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres    Range 2.0 billion km   (46 hours at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (1)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC75-R120 (1)     Range 75.9m km    Resolution 120
ASM-1s (19)  Speed: 12 000 km/s   End: 100.6m    Range: 72.4m km   WH: 2    Size: 1    TH: 80/48/24

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 07:07:27 PM by Iranon »
 

Offline Michael Sandy (OP)

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Re: fast fighter, equal speed missile
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 07:26:30 PM »
Sensor footprint vs range is sort of what makes the concept work.  The bigger you make the launching fighter/LAC, the further out they have to fire, the bigger their fire control has to be.

It is only fighter beam fire control that gets the special fighter discount, right?

But you are right, a LAC could also afford to have a much larger magazine to launcher ratio.  1 launcher and 3 magazines means 60 missiles, or 600 seconds of flight, or 7.2 million km inside of the 72 million km missile range.

Sounds reasonable... until you are dealing with ECM, and you have to launch from 30% or more closer in, and that extra 7 million km flying straight at the enemy puts your attack craft in range of their high resolution sensors and fire control.

Scissors, paper, stone... lizard... spock... whatever. ;)