Author Topic: Replacing PDCs  (Read 83915 times)

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Iranon

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #180 on: October 17, 2017, 03:13:07 AM »
One of Aurora's biggest strengths is open-ended gameplay with systems that give the player a lot of freedom. Heavy ground units practically scream to use the same components we could mount on ships (possibly with the option to scale things down a bit) rather than an entirely new and much more limited system, and PDCs could be expanded rather than eliminated for interesting interaction with those heavy ground units.

The proposed changes seem more like "tacking fiddly things on" when the better option would be to expand a very good system to apply where it formerly didn't.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #181 on: October 17, 2017, 03:41:10 AM »
The proposed changes seem more like "tacking fiddly things on" when the better option would be to expand a very good system to apply where it formerly didn't.

Have to agree with this when it comes to logistics / supplies / fuel and weapons/deigns or hangars for ground combat.

It would make sense to use similar compatible supplies (MSP) and similar sources of energy (Sorium based fuel for vehicles).

It would make sense to use similar weapons and powerplants for large vehicles, airplanes or smaller space ships (fighters), maybe even sharing the same designer?

It would make sense to have shared hangars for space or ground based fighters that can be used by either of them ( Both space based and ground based ), and some shared capability and multirole where Space Carrier Fighters have an optional "atmospheric flight" component allowing them to take part in air combat or ground support on planets with an atmosphere.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #182 on: October 17, 2017, 07:35:37 AM »
Have to agree with this when it comes to logistics / supplies / fuel and weapons/deigns or hangars for ground combat.

It would make sense to use similar compatible supplies (MSP) and similar sources of energy (Sorium based fuel for vehicles).

It would make sense to use similar weapons and powerplants for large vehicles, airplanes or smaller space ships (fighters), maybe even sharing the same designer?

It would make sense to have shared hangars for space or ground based fighters that can be used by either of them ( Both space based and ground based ), and some shared capability and multirole where Space Carrier Fighters have an optional "atmospheric flight" component allowing them to take part in air combat or ground support on planets with an atmosphere.

Agree that MSP (for all units) and Sorium (for vehicles/aircraft) make sense for ground units rather than a separate resource type . I'll probably have logistic units 'carry' supplies that can be used by ground units, or have some inherent capability. This would be at a low level normally but much higher during combat. Vehicles without fuel would act only on defence and without any mobility bonus.

The issue with having much smaller versions of ship components is that I would have to make those available for ships too. Having much smaller versions of weapons could lead to some balance issues, particularly around point defence and dealing with ultra-short ranges. Plus this isn't really very different than PDCs. I want ground combat to be more detailed than it is now, but not to the extent of creating space-based warfare on the ground.

 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #183 on: October 17, 2017, 07:46:30 AM »
The 'fortification level' of a ground unit will act as a divisor on the chance to hit. So fortification level 3 will mean all to-hit chances against that unit are divisible by 3. This will also be true against ships attacking from orbit (more on that in a future post). Fortification level does not affect armour penetration or damage.

Any infantry or static unit will be able to fortify itself to level 3 over time without assistance. Vehicles will be able to fortify to level 2 (although this will negate their mobility bonus it would avoid any fuel use). Super-heavy Vehicles will be able to fortify to level 1.5. Aircraft will not be able to fortify.

Combat Engineers will be able to increase the fortification level of other units over time. Up to level 3 for vehicles and up to level 5 for infantry & static. (I may add some additional fortification bonuses for infantry/static depending on terrain). Combat Engineers will be also able to reduce hostile fortification levels over time.

If a unit chooses to attack, it will lose any fortification bonus. However, you will be able to attack with selected units and leave others in place.

More details later on how long it takes to fortify.
 
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #184 on: October 17, 2017, 08:28:31 AM »
Agree that MSP (for all units) and Sorium (for vehicles/aircraft) make sense for ground units rather than a separate resource type . I'll probably have logistic units 'carry' supplies that can be used by ground units, or have some inherent capability. This would be at a low level normally but much higher during combat. Vehicles without fuel would act only on defence and without any mobility bonus.

The issue with having much smaller versions of ship components is that I would have to make those available for ships too. Having much smaller versions of weapons could lead to some balance issues, particularly around point defence and dealing with ultra-short ranges.

Using Space weapons for all larger vehicles (tanks and upward) would make sense IMHO.

An AT-AT would be 600-3000 ton weight ( according to wiki sources I found )

Tanks would be around 50-100 ton weight? ( could be made a bit larger if needed for consistency maybe? )

This isn't far from Aurora Fighters ranging around 200-500 ton.



I totally agree that it makes little sense to have hand held rifles and manportable weapons or MGs shared with spaceships.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #185 on: October 17, 2017, 08:44:41 AM »
Agree that MSP (for all units) and Sorium (for vehicles/aircraft) make sense for ground units rather than a separate resource type . I'll probably have logistic units 'carry' supplies that can be used by ground units, or have some inherent capability. This would be at a low level normally but much higher during combat. Vehicles without fuel would act only on defence and without any mobility bonus.

This offers the option for limited simulation of supply chains. Presume 4 'places' for supply, formation (Battalion), Brigade, Division, Stockpile. Logistics units can draw supplies from/send supplies to one level higher at a high degree of efficiency, but efficiency drops fast at 2 and 3 levels to keep Battalion supply units from easily avoiding the supply chain mechanic, and logistics units attached to Brigade and Division commands have larger or much larger supply storage capacity that lower level commands can draw supply from for their formations, but do not have greater transportation capacity. This means that part of army design will be determining how much supply transport and storage capacity you want.

Of course, if that is too much or not fun as a mechanic make it a 1 layer thing instead where the efficiency is static.

I know there are ordnance, fuel and general cargo specific rates for cargo transfers, but is there something similar for Maintenance Supply Points? It'd be kinda odd to have to deal with fuel transfer rates for ground forces, and sufficiently expansive armies are going to drain a lot of fuel, but be able to just drop 10 kilotons worth of MSP straight on planet in an instant.

I'd also encourage reconsidering not using a separate supply point mechanic for ground forces; life support/crew space kind of covers things like food supply for crew on board ships, even if you can cheese it at the cost of horrible morale. Ground forces though have no such system in place, but could be simulated through a ground supply point mechanic that's comparatively heavy in cash costs, unlike normal production which requires money equal to mineral costs ground supply point could cost some multiple of that.

Then again, while Aurora VB6 ground forces cost money to maintain, crew on board ships don't.

The 'fortification level' of a ground unit will act as a divisor on the chance to hit. So fortification level 3 will mean all to-hit chances against that unit are divisible by 3. This will also be true against ships attacking from orbit (more on that in a future post). Fortification level does not affect armour penetration or damage.

Any infantry or static unit will be able to fortify itself to level 3 over time without assistance. Vehicles will be able to fortify to level 2 (although this will negate their mobility bonus it would avoid any fuel use). Super-heavy Vehicles will be able to fortify to level 1.5. Aircraft will not be able to fortify.

Combat Engineers will be able to increase the fortification level of other units over time. Up to level 3 for vehicles and up to level 5 for infantry & static. (I may add some additional fortification bonuses for infantry/static depending on terrain). Combat Engineers will be also able to reduce hostile fortification levels over time.

If a unit chooses to attack, it will lose any fortification bonus. However, you will be able to attack with selected units and leave others in place.

More details later on how long it takes to fortify.

Are all units equally likely to be hit, or do certain sizes, size groups or base units have different odds of being hit?

Because that will influence whether or not a 20% chance of being hit when fortified is a good deal for infantry. Right now the odds are rather horrifyingly against anything with armour for unarmoured infantry, even with specialized weapons.

Then again, that could be a good argument not to ever bring your entirely unarmoured cheap as can be garrison infantry onto a battlefield. They will die, unlike even light infantry which sports an armour rating of 1.

Also, unless fortification level is an integer number Bombardment weapons should erode fortification, heavier weapons of course doing more damage. If fortification level is an integer number Bombardment weapons should have a (low) chance of lowering fortifaction levels. Either way, Combat Engineers should be a much more efficient way to lower enemy fortification levels.

Units that are fortifying should probably use slightly more supplies compared to units that are fortified. Construction Engineers, if they are still a thing, should probably have a similar ability to strengthen fortifications, possibly to a greater extent or faster than Combat Engineers.

EDIT: Note; Fortification level 1 does nothing. Not sure if that's intended.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 08:32:44 PM by Hazard »
 

Offline Indefatigable

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #186 on: October 17, 2017, 10:48:13 AM »
#PDCLivesMatter  >:(
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #187 on: October 17, 2017, 04:41:38 PM »
I'm not sure what the current state of replacements for combat losses are, but I think a combination of replacement companies for personnel and higher draw on MSP to represent replacement equipment is preferable to the original idea of having to have replacement units of each type of equipment being fielded. I think that ends up being too much micromanagement for one part of the ground combat experience and could stand being abstracted a little.

edit: mobile spelling suffers badly with that tiny keyboard.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 01:00:29 AM by Gyrfalcon »
 
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Offline Marski

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #188 on: October 17, 2017, 11:10:17 PM »
I'm a bit worried about Steve trying to tackle ground combat. It's a very difficult gameplay to design and balance. Something that rts and grand strategy games today still have difficulties to get right. For me the simple but straightforward ground combat aurora has is fine. I sincerely wish Steve delays this aspect of developement until everything else is ready
 

Offline Tree

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #189 on: October 18, 2017, 02:32:58 AM »
I'm a bit worried about Steve trying to tackle ground combat. It's a very difficult gameplay to design and balance. Something that rts and grand strategy games today still have difficulties to get right. For me the simple but straightforward ground combat aurora has is fine. I sincerely wish Steve delays this aspect of developement until everything else is ready
It'd be nice to get the Aurora port to C# first and keep the reworked ground combat for Aurora C# 2.0.
 
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Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #190 on: October 18, 2017, 05:32:44 AM »
They're one and the same, Steve is busy with the rework right this minute, so while we can be impatient for a new version of Aurora, it'll come when he's ready to release it, ground combat rework included.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #191 on: October 18, 2017, 12:19:15 PM »
I'd like to "+1" something that was mentioned four pages ago:

Please, please, PLEASE leave us some means of Orbit-to-Ground / Ground-to-Orbit weaponry for the "absolutely no missiles ever!" empires some of us like to play.

And for myself, contrary to what others are arguing, I want there to be some place for the "all basic infantry, all the time" ground forces that my games' Bugs equivalents are going to field.  I can accept 'Improved Personal Weapon' Infantry as representing bigger Bugs, but I'm not interested in having to pretend Super-Heavy Vehicles are giant plasma-throwing 'tanker' bugs just to prevent a few battalions of Medium Tanks wiping out 60 million Bug infantry as fast as the tanks can reload.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #192 on: October 18, 2017, 12:27:45 PM »
And for myself, contrary to what others are arguing, I want there to be some place for the "all basic infantry, all the time" ground forces that my games' Bugs equivalents are going to field.  I can accept 'Improved Personal Weapon' Infantry as representing bigger Bugs, but I'm not interested in having to pretend Super-Heavy Vehicles are giant plasma-throwing 'tanker' bugs just to prevent a few battalions of Medium Tanks wiping out 60 million Bug infantry as fast as the tanks can reload.

Use Light Infantry. Exact same size as unarmoured infantry, but with an Armour rating of 1.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #193 on: October 18, 2017, 12:28:36 PM »
I'd like to "+1" something that was mentioned four pages ago:

Please, please, PLEASE leave us some means of Orbit-to-Ground / Ground-to-Orbit weaponry for the "absolutely no missiles ever!" empires some of us like to play.

And for myself, contrary to what others are arguing, I want there to be some place for the "all basic infantry, all the time" ground forces that my games' Bugs equivalents are going to field.  I can accept 'Improved Personal Weapon' Infantry as representing bigger Bugs, but I'm not interested in having to pretend Super-Heavy Vehicles are giant plasma-throwing 'tanker' bugs just to prevent a few battalions of Medium Tanks wiping out 60 million Bug infantry as fast as the tanks can reload.

Ground to orbit will only be energy-based. I want to avoid any complexities around ground units with missiles. Orbit to ground energy combat will be possible using some form of 'forward air controller' against normal ground units, or normal 'naval' combat against ground units with surface-to orbit weapons that are firing at space-based targets (they are revealing their position).

Naval fire vs ground units with ground to orbit weapons will be at 100% to hit divided by fortification level (as they are firing at a specific target). Naval Fire vs 'normal' ground units will have some form of bombardment rating (the ship would act as an additional bombarding ground unit). Conversion of weapon strength to bombardment rating TBD but perhaps on a 3 damage = 1 bombardment strength, with option for much less effective fire (and potential friendly fire) if no FAC available. So 10cm laser would be equivalent to a light bombardment weapon, a 20cm laser would be slightly better than a medium bombardment weapon, 30cm would be better than heavy bombardment. Plasma Carronades would be very effective in this role. Not sure how I would handle naval ROF in this situation though. I could just ignore and have 1 naval fire support per weapon per ground combat round and assume faster firing weapons have their ROF built into the normal rating, or perhaps allow multiple shots and use the MSP option below. I just need to avoid a situation where a few energy-armed ships in orbit can wreak havoc enemy ground forces. Of course, this is only possible if the orbiting ships are not facing massed ground-based defences. Lots of balancing needed after playtest.

One other thing I am considering is to have a small breakdown chance for any ship-based weapon each time it fires (missile or energy) - maybe about 1%. This would be immediately repaired if MSP are available, but would prevent effectively endless orbital fire support.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 12:47:08 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 
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Offline Hazard

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #194 on: October 18, 2017, 12:59:07 PM »
Naval fire vs ground units with ground to orbit weapons will be at 100% to hit divided by fortification level (as they are firing at a specific target). Naval Fire vs 'normal' ground units will have some form of bombardment rating (the ship would act as an additional bombarding ground unit). Conversion of weapon strength to bombardment rating TBD.

Given that we're talking naval equipment it should probably be pretty high. Naval guns at their smallest are so large they can't reasonably be lugged around by anything that has to operate in a ground combat context. I mean, the smallest laser without reduction technology is 150 tons or so. That should be super heavy unit range. A balancing factor could be that while high in Shots, making a 5 second recharge capable naval laser is relatively trivial, naval artillery has poor Damage and AP because those weapons are tuned for vacuum, not atmospheres.

They also waste a lot of power hitting everything else, so naval artillery bombardment should probably come with major risks of dust plumes.

One other thing I am considering is to have a small breakdown chance for any ship-based weapon each time it fires (missile or energy) - maybe about 1%. This would be immediately repaired if MSP are available, but would prevent effectively endless orbital fire support.

That's kind of high. Naval guns were generally expected to be able to empty the entire magazine in a single go before needing maintenance, and often even longer. It will also greatly increase logistical demand for MSP for point defense ships and other ships depending on lots of small rapid fire gun layouts. Maybe instead a chance for an 'out of order' event that takes a gun out of action for 2-10 times its firing cycle, with MSP needed for repairs for longer?

To be honest, very long shore bombardments, and I mean days long, were a definite thing during WW1 and WW2 military campaigns, especially against peer opponents that had dug in well and deep. And certainly, you can do that in Aurora too right now. It's just that if you do that you can basically write off the planet as a living space for the next few decades, and that sounds like a reasonable trade off already.

Do I want the planet intact along with its population and factories, or do I want to minimize ground combat commitments?