Author Topic: Very first step into planetary assault - will they last long enough  (Read 1307 times)

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Offline undercovergeek (OP)

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These guys are just to land, look around, tell me whats there and then probably die - hoping they last long enough

192 of these guys - Infantry Element, powered armour and PWI
Transport Size (tons) 6     Cost 0.18     Armour 15.0     Hit Points 10
Annual Maintenance Cost 0.023     Resupply Cost 1.3
Improved Personal Weapons:      Shots 1      Penetration 12      Damage 10

Vendarite  0.18   
Development Cost  67

1 of these guys

Infantry Element HQ
Transport Size (tons) 25     Cost 3     Armour 15.0     Hit Points 10
Annual Maintenance Cost 0.38     Resupply Cost 0
Headquarters:    Capacity 5,000
Non-Combat Class

Vendarite  3   
Development Cost  273

96 of these guys

Mech Element
Transport Size (tons) 12     Cost 0.36     Armour 15.0     Hit Points 10
Annual Maintenance Cost 0.045     Resupply Cost 6
Crew-Served Anti-Personnel:      Shots 6      Penetration 10      Damage 10

Vendarite  0.36   
Development Cost  94

and 24 of these guys

Heavy Element
Transport Size (tons) 98     Cost 3.92     Armour 20     Hit Points 40
Annual Maintenance Cost 0.49     Resupply Cost 34
Medium Anti-Vehicle:      Shots 1      Penetration 40      Damage 40
Medium Autocannon:      Shots 3      Penetration 30      Damage 20

Vendarite  3.92   
Development Cost  313

coming in at just under 5000

so they can fit in this

UD4 Cheyenne Assault class Assault Transport      12,199 tons       145 Crew       1,499.6 BP       TCS 244    TH 1,920    EM 0
7870 km/s      Armour 8-47       Shields 0-0       HTK 29      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 1-0      PPV 0
Maint Life 0.03 Years     MSP 76    AFR 1190%    IFR 16.5%    1YR 2,684    5YR 40,257    Max Repair 480 MSP
Troop Capacity 5,000 tons     
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Morale Check Required   

Macrinus Aeromarine Magneto-plasma Drive  EP960.00 (2)    Power 1920    Fuel Use 82.67%    Signature 960    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 17.8 billion km (26 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Troop Transport for auto-assignment purposes



 

Online Andrew

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The units themselves are fine. 
5000 tons is small for a ground unit but workable , however you should have an HQ Element in the unit so you can get officer bonuses, also you will need some supply units or your troops will be combat ineffective within a few days.
Finally you have a military transport ship, which is fast and well armoured although an abomination with an odd number of tons in its size :(
However as you really need to land something more like 100,000 tons of troops on even an outpost you will need 20 of these ships, and you are still not fast enough to avoid being shot by any STO Weapons particularly as it is not drop capable, it will zoom to the planet then orbit for several hours landing its troops and any remaining STO will kill it before they land. Also with that short range its not invading anyone much outside your home system.
I prefer to use slower commercial troop transports at around 100,000 tons carrying 40-50000 tons of drop capable troop transport and you still need a lot of them , even more to invade a homeworld (or a big advantage in tech).  I lean towards unarmoured as I can't put enough armour on to survive STO Fire so they need to be killed before I invade and so I don't bring the transports in until  I have space superiority

edit Strike through as I learn to read!
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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It's important to understand the distinction between boarding ships and invading planets and moving troops around. The former requires a boarding capable troop transport module, has to be as fast as possible to minimize casualties, but does not need to carry a lot of troops - it also does not need lot of armour / shields as the general consensus goes that the target to be boarded will most likely be disabled or at least heavily damaged before boarding commences.

However, planetary invasions are entirely a different thing. They need a drop capable troop transport module, speed is not hugely important as they will get hit by STO regardless of how fast they are - as long as they aren't so slow that crossing the STO envelope takes like a minute or something crazy like that, do need to carry A LOT of troops and must be heavily armoured and shielded to survive long enough.

Finally, your regular troop transport can be a commercial ship with just the regular troop module, nothing extra needed as it is just moving grunts & guns from training planet to deployment planet, ie point A to point B. Plus, moving xenoarchaeology and construction formations around as needed. Going for as cheap a design as possible is the key here.

So, in essence you need 3 different troop-carrying vessels because the requirements for the 3 missions are quite different. And no, forget sci-fi movie stuff, having a little helicopter-equivalent dropship dodge incoming fire is not a possibility in Aurora currently. Think of it more like Mechwarrior, where a huge-ass armoured behemoth slams through the atmosphere, makes a crater where it lands and then vomits out giant fighting machines, hundreds of tanks and thousands of troops, instead of Aliens where a sleek fighter nimbly puts down a squad of marines.

All of this is to justify me saying that your Cheyenne is too small and too fragile to do planetary invasions, especially since it doesn't even have drop capability, is probably too slow to be a boarding vessel (and is lacking that capability anyway) while also being bit too expensive and probably too small to be an efficient peacetime transporter.
 
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Offline undercovergeek (OP)

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Thanks both - I do have a commercial unarmoured 100k transport for moving around huge groups of engineers instead of building construction factories- I’ll see what I can do with that

Is drop capability in the logistics tree?
 

Offline Pedroig

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Ground Forces
si vis pacem, para bellum
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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These guys are just to land, look around, tell me whats there and then probably die - hoping they last long enough

This is probably a bad idea. Alien homeworlds usually are defended by multiple-million-tons of ground units. Your 5,000-ton scouting party will be mowed down in the first combat increment without providing any real intelligence - the intel you get in the first exchange of fire usually has error bars of +/- 100% - you might be able to confirm that the opponent has tanks, but you won't have any solid numbers on how many tanks are actually present, for example. To be frank it's not really a surprise that the opponent has tanks, especially since most NPRs have balanced force compositions that lean infantry-heavy.

It's probably better and less wasteful to just land a similarly balanced force (or a force designed to counter a balanced opposing force, you do you here) in sufficient size to win the battle outright - taking into account the normal rules affecting detected ground force signatures in space (i.e., that the apparent signature is reduced by fortification level, so you may be facing 3x to 6x as many troops in reality). The ground combat mechanics are actually quite flexible in practice, at least at an operational and/or strategic scale, so any "reasonable" force composition will perform well enough as long as you have the advantage of numbers.

You're also going to run into a serious problem if you do try to use these:
Quote
UD4 Cheyenne Assault class Assault Transport
Maint Life 0.03 Years     MSP 76    AFR 1190%    IFR 16.5%    1YR 2,684    5YR 40,257    Max Repair 480 MSP

Macrinus Aeromarine Magneto-plasma Drive  EP960.00 (2)    Power 1920    Fuel Use 82.67%    Signature 960    Explosion 15%

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Due to the use of overboosted engines, the Cheyenne class is counted as a military ship with an associated failure rate, and without appreciable engineering/MSP spaces that 0.03 years maintenance life may prove to be an optimistic overestimate. Your troops are going to end up uselessly floating around in Mars' orbital radius rather than reaching the AO and mowing down alien scum.

For opposed planetary assaults, I would recommend something more like this:
Off-Topic: Leviathan class Assault Transport • show

Leviathan class Assault Transport      223,972 tons       1,143 Crew       9,728.4 BP       TCS 4,479    TH 6,000    EM 0
1339 km/s    JR 3-50(C)      Armour 12-328       Shields 0-0       HTK 285      Sensors 8/8/0/0      DCR 1-0      PPV 0
MSP 27    Max Repair 800 MSP
Troop Capacity 100,000 tons     Drop Capable    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 20   
Captain (JG)    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   

Genesis HGC-4500 Commercial Hyper Generator     Max Ship Size 225000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

Hyperion HC-500 Commercial Impeller Drive (12)    Power 6000    Fuel Use 2.24%    Signature 500    Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 1,500,000 Litres    Range 53.8 billion km (465 days at full power)

NM/BGN-4 Gravitic Navigation System (34M) (1)     GPS 2400     Range 33.9m km    Resolution 150
NM/SLQ-17 Auxiliary EM Detection Array (22M) (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
NM/SRQ-21 Auxiliary Thermal Detection Array (22M) (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Troop Transport for auto-assignment purposes

This is admittedly a rather large version appropriate to my roleplay setting, but the basic concept is sound: Large drop-capable troop capacity and extremely heavy armor to weather STO fire on approach to a planet. You may still lose a couple of these depending on how many STOs the enemy has (and how much preparatory bombardment you choose to do), but the idea is to have a large number of these, probably in the dozens, to deliver those multiple million tons of ground forces to the planet surface more-or-less intact.

You may balk at the cost of these ships, especially given that I'm suggesting to build dozens of them. To this I say, what did you expect? Planetary invasions are not supposed to be cheap and easy, after all... and that 100,000 tons of ground troops in each ship is going to cost you another 2,000 BPs at a minimum, probably more like 5,000 to 10,000 since you will want to have armored units for the most tonnage-efficient invasion force. Better start cranking out those GFCCs...

In the long-term, however, even these expensive monstrosities can pay for themselves eventually. Since they are commercial ships, once you build an assault ship it can be kept around and used whenever needed as long as your game goes on, and refitting the engines every tech level or two is a far cheaper affair than building a new model of these, so once you have a good-sized fleet built up then any survivors from one invasion can be used for the next one.

There are other approaches to drop ships - for example, you could reduce the armor (which makes up over 40% of the total cost here) and try mounting more engines instead, aiming for speed to reduce the number of hits taken rather than armor to suffer the hits (personally, I don't think this is as effective, but I am only trying to point out another possibility). However, no matter what approach you take, these will be horrendously expensive units.

Your chief alternative is to wipe out the STOs with orbital bombardment, at the expense of greater collateral damage, and then land your invasion force by a legion of much cheaper regular transport ships. Dropships are really only necessary in the face of STO fire, otherwise you have plenty of time to unload your troops unhassled by annoying laser beams and railgun rounds. This could save minerals and money on the up-front building costs, but the rewards of conquest are correspondingly less as well. Given that the up-front costs pay off over time, losing significant chunks of your booty every time you bombard another alien world may end up being not worth it in the bigger picture.
 
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Offline vorpal+5

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Is it considered a viable strategy, when still low on production capacity, to have drop ships that drop the first wave, and then cheaper and larger troop transports (when STO are gone?) to reinforce 'bridgehead' with massive numbers of extra troops? Or would it not work, either because either STO are all cleaned, or you can't and they will fire until the end of the land campaign, or perhaps because the difference in price between drop modules and standard ones do not justify the split in 2 troops transports categories (except for role play?)
 

Online Andrew

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STO will not be gone, they are not preferntially targetted by your ground troops and will be none combat units so they will be among the last things killed by ground forces. All you assault troops will need to land from heavily armoured ships with drop modules if you intend to assault into STO. Frankly I think it is only possible if the defenders have rubbish STO , Heavy Laser or Plasma does so much damage that your armoured ships will not last long and they are probably going to have to make multiple runs as landing multiple million tons of troops is probably not something you can do in one lift.  Against smaller spoiler garrisons despite their good STO weapons it may work as you can probably land enough troops in one drop to kill the defenders.
The cost differential is not the drop/standard modules although that is a factor it is the difference between armour 1 and 12+ where the cost lies. That cost if twofold, the cost of the armour and the size of the armour meaning each ship carries less troops.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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I see, so there is no situation akin to the Normandy D-Day where, after a while, the bridgehead is safe, and you can switch from amphibious crafts to standard transports. It's as if, in this regard, the Allies take Paris or even the Siegfried Line, and yet the Germans are still bombarding the heck out of all harbors along the coast of France.
 

Offline ty55101

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I see, so there is no situation akin to the Normandy D-Day where, after a while, the bridgehead is safe, and you can switch from amphibious crafts to standard transports. It's as if, in this regard, the Allies take Paris or even the Siegfried Line, and yet the Germans are still bombarding the heck out of all harbors along the coast of France.

Potentially if you landed a bunch of medium anti vehicle infantry in frontline attack then you might be able to get lucky and take out some. Keep in mind if there is equivalent tonnage on the frontline, you have a 1% chance to target the STO. It is pretty doubtful you will get rid of a significant portion, but you might be able to make it somewhat easier for the ships to get close. With how cheap ground units are, it might even be a viable strategy.

In my campaign, I will be attempting something similar with mass dropship drops and hoping that a good portion make it through the STO fire. With each one only taking 500-4000 tons, I think there will be enough to land the start of a Fighting force until enough STOs are destroyed, but I definitely wouldn't use it as a standard strategy in a campaign.
More guns = more funs
 

Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Very first step into planetary assault - will they last long enough
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2024, 10:48:41 AM »
I see, so there is no situation akin to the Normandy D-Day where, after a while, the bridgehead is safe, and you can switch from amphibious crafts to standard transports. It's as if, in this regard, the Allies take Paris or even the Siegfried Line, and yet the Germans are still bombarding the heck out of all harbors along the coast of France.
Yes, there's not really anywhere 'inland' from space on a planet.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Very first step into planetary assault - will they last long enough
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2024, 11:37:32 AM »
I see, so there is no situation akin to the Normandy D-Day where, after a while, the bridgehead is safe, and you can switch from amphibious crafts to standard transports. It's as if, in this regard, the Allies take Paris or even the Siegfried Line, and yet the Germans are still bombarding the heck out of all harbors along the coast of France.
Yes, there's not really anywhere 'inland' from space on a planet.

If you land troops and put them all on support, the enemy may not attack them, allowing you to spend weeks building up reinforcements. It will depend on the AI's assessment of whether it can attack successfully.
 
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Offline CharonJr

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Re: Very first step into planetary assault - will they last long enough
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2024, 02:00:43 AM »
Has there been a suggestion for special forces/commando raids yet to deal with STOs?

Essentially highly training and thus costly troops who deal with STOs which cause no collateral damage vs. the current fairly cheap way which can cause collateral damage.

As in WW2 before D-Day special forces might be landed (e.g. via stealth shuttles or via special "missiles") when close to a planet and they will try to take out the STOs. With the success chance depending on special commando skills like stealth/insertion vs. the number of defending ground troops at those STOs. With the overall survival chance for those commandos fairly low unless "rescued" by a massive ground invasion fairly quickly.
 
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Offline undercovergeek (OP)

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Re: Very first step into planetary assault - will they last long enough
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2024, 04:14:30 AM »
Stealth shuttle you say?
 

Online Andrew

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Re: Very first step into planetary assault - will they last long enough
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2024, 04:19:45 AM »
I am not actually aware of any special forces operations duisring D-Day to eliminate coastal defences,( The British paratroop attacks and US Ranger attack on heavy batterries were part of the normal landing).

There also does not seem to be a viable mechanic for 'stealth' landings. We have stealth systems and they reduce the signature of the ship they are fitted to. However STO Batterries have R1 Sensors which spot missiles at engagement range for the guns and so will spot anything before it reaches the planets. If we introduce stealth missiles which cannot be spotted by R1 sensors then we just put a warhead on them and we have made an invincible ship killer weapon.