Planetary scanners and fire controls?

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

Hello everyone.  .  .   new player that just stumbled over this absolutely intriguing game.   It reminds me of all those lost hours playing Harpoon ages ago.  .  .    Grin

Now, over to some easy question for you about two things I would like to have clarified.

Planetary scanners (Deep space tracking stations) are suppose to give me eyes into space.   Now I activate the "Active" (and passive) sensors on the "sensors" tab in the "System Map view" but I don't see any bauble effect so I can now it's approximate range, am I even suppose to see this?
It would be good to know how far my planetary scanners will be able to see things.

Another thing which I don't seem to understand completely is how the "fire controls" really work with in "point defence" mode.   How many fire controls do you need on a ship (obviously depending on the number of PD turrets on it).   How many missiles/fighters can ONE fire-control engage during a 5 second turn.

Also, how fast would the regular ASM be during the early and middle game (I'm currently  starting with a conventional start)?
The reason for this question is so that I understand how to design "area defence PD guns", that is, how long range they will need to have.   I suppose that they need to have a range at least greater than five times the speed of a missile to be able to shoot at it more than once, right?
With this in mind are there much difference in a gun with 10.  000km and 40.  000km range who tries to hit a missile travelling at 10.  000km/s (given my ship is not moving)?

My last question is about the CIWS system.   Exactly what does the "Beam Fire Control Distance Rating", "Fire Control Speed Rating", "Active Sensor Strength" and "Turret Rotation Gear" do?
They don't seem to change the basic to hit chance of the system, it also don't increase its range since that is always 1000km.   Some of these make it more expensive, bigger or smaller etc.  .  .   so how does this effect the CIWS system as a whole?

[Person012345]

Hello everyone.  .  .   new player that just stumbled over this absolutely intriguing game.   It reminds me of all those lost hours playing Harpoon ages ago.  .  .    Grin

Now, over to some easy question for you about two things I would like to have clarified.

Planetary scanners (Deep space tracking stations) are suppose to give me eyes into space.   Now I activate the "Active" (and passive) sensors on the "sensors" tab in the "System Map view" but I don't see any bauble effect so I can now it's approximate range, am I even suppose to see this?
It would be good to know how far my planetary scanners will be able to see things.

DSTS are passive sensors, so you need to click that button, then drag the slider to the desired signature level to be detected and it'll show you the range (at first it may not be that big,  so make sure you aren't too far zoomed out)

Another thing which I don't seem to understand completely is how the "fire controls" really work with in "point defence" mode.   How many fire controls do you need on a ship (obviously depending on the number of PD turrets on it).   How many missiles/fighters can ONE fire-control engage during a 5 second turn.

From what I understand they can engage 1 target at a time. However, a target usually consists of a salvo of missiles, how many missiles will depend on what fired them. (I believe it's one salvo per fire control - so however many offensive missile fire controls the enemy has, you would need that same amount to be able to engage all incoming enemy missiles at the same time)

Also, how fast would the regular ASM be during the early and middle game (I'm currently  starting with a conventional start)?
The reason for this question is so that I understand how to design "area defence PD guns", that is, how long range they will need to have.   I suppose that they need to have a range at least greater than five times the speed of a missile to be able to shoot at it more than once, right?
With this in mind are there much difference in a gun with 10.  000km and 40.  000km range who tries to hit a missile travelling at 10.  000km/s (given my ship is not moving)?

I'm not sure exactly when you're talking, but I have up to magneto-plasma engine technology (from a conventional start) and here are the specs of my current missiles. I have 2 types, a longer range one and a faster one:
Sunkiss Mk II (150)  Speed: 53,300 km/s   End: 7.8m    Range: 25m km   WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 177 / 106 / 53
Sunstrike Mk II (249)  Speed: 32,000 km/s   End: 54.7m    Range: 105m km   WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 106 / 64 / 32

I'm not going to claim that these are good designs, I'm not sure, but they might give you an idea (NPR missiles I tend to find to be fairly eh in capability anyway) as to what to expect at that tech level, idk.

As for the other part, I don't think it matters with regard to the question, the missile would close the distance within one tick so if you did detect it before it hit you, you will only get one shot at it anyway if your guns only reach that far.

[Elouda]

Hello everyone.  .  .   new player that just stumbled over this absolutely intriguing game.   It reminds me of all those lost hours playing Harpoon ages ago.  .  .    Grin

Now, over to some easy question for you about two things I would like to have clarified.

Welcome. Will try to do my best to answer.

Planetary scanners (Deep space tracking stations) are suppose to give me eyes into space.   Now I activate the "Active" (and passive) sensors on the "sensors" tab in the "System Map view" but I don't see any bauble effect so I can now it's approximate range, am I even suppose to see this?
It would be good to know how far my planetary scanners will be able to see things.

Planetary sensor arrays (Deep Space Tracking Stations) are passive only, and detect both Thermal and EM emissions. You can see their strength on the "Colony Summary" page (F2). To get an idea of their range, you can activate "Signature Detection Range" under "Sensors" on the System Map (F3). This is the range at which something with a thermal or EM emissions strength of that number will be detected by your passive sensors, including planetary ones.

Another thing which I don't seem to understand completely is how the "fire controls" really work with in "point defence" mode.   How many fire controls do you need on a ship (obviously depending on the number of PD turrets on it).   How many missiles/fighters can ONE fire-control engage during a 5 second turn.

Each fire control is able to target one thing at a time. This means one individual ship, including fighters, or one 'salvo' of missiles (meaning all the missiles launched from 1 fire control in a 5 second turn). Each fire control can have any number of launchers assigned.

In point defence mode, the firecontrol will fire at incoming missile salvos, and try to match the enemy missile number in the specified manner (so in 5v1 mode, it will launch 5 missiles for each 1 in an enemy salvo - so if the enemy salvo is 6 missiles, it will fire 30 at that salvo).

Also, how fast would the regular ASM be during the early and middle game (I'm currently  starting with a conventional start)?
The reason for this question is so that I understand how to design "area defence PD guns", that is, how long range they will need to have.   I suppose that they need to have a range at least greater than five times the speed of a missile to be able to shoot at it more than once, right?
With this in mind are there much difference in a gun with 10.  000km and 40.  000km range who tries to hit a missile travelling at 10.  000km/s (given my ship is not moving)?

The conventional start is actually the 'hard' or 'advanced' start, as you need to research EVERYTHING. I'd suggest the Trans Newtonian one for your first few games.

Most early game (first 2 engine techs) ASMs will probably be in the 10,000-15,000km/s speed range. As you deduced, this means they will move 50,000km per 5 second 'turn' in the case of the 10,000km/s missiles. Area defence PD will try to engage them on the first increment they are in range, so if your guns have a range of over 50,000km, they will get 1 shot in if they are ready. As early game beam weapons are slow to reload, area defence PD is generally not practical. Final Defensive PD will always engage the missiles just before they hit if the guns are ready.

There would be no difference between those weapons in final defensive mode, though in area defence both would be unreliable (missiles might just go from 45,000km to 0km in 5 seconds), though the one with 40,000km range would obviously have better chances of catching them in range.

My last question is about the CIWS system.   Exactly what does the "Beam Fire Control Distance Rating", "Fire Control Speed Rating", "Active Sensor Strength" and "Turret Rotation Gear" do?
They don't seem to change the basic to hit chance of the system, it also don't increase its range since that is always 1000km.   Some of these make it more expensive, bigger or smaller etc.  .  .   so how does this effect the CIWS system as a whole?

Fire Control Speed will increase the maximum tracking speed of the CIWS, meaning it can hit faster missiles.

Fire Control Distance will extended the maximum 'firecontrol' range (NOT firing range), making it more accurate up close (atleast this is how it works for regular weapons when FC range > weapon range, not 100% sure on CIWS).

Active Sensor Strength and Turret Rotation Gear will reduce the size of the mount, due to better technology meaning you can get the minimal detection etc from smaller devices.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

Thank you both, I think I got all my questions answered.

I also figured that conventional start would be harder, but it also allow me to adjust to the game at a more moderate pace.  I will not have to wrestle with everything at once and I can take my time, I also added some extra minerals on Earth to compensate that I'm new, so I hope that will even things out a bit.   

[Person012345]

Thank you both, I think I got all my questions answered.

I also figured that conventional start would be harder, but it also allow me to adjust to the game at a more moderate pace.  I will not have to wrestle with everything at once and I can take my time, I also added some extra minerals on Earth to compensate that I'm new, so I hope that will even things out a bit.   

I almost always do conventional starts, and I would disagree with the advice of doing trans-newtonian starts as a newbie, as I find conventional starts much less overwhelming. You can concentrate on one thing at a time. I think, though, that it can be more difficult if you happen to run into another race early-ish, because NPR's won't ever start conventional, so they have a tech advantage. I'm not sure exactly why it's said actually.

[HaliRyan]

I almost always do conventional starts, and I would disagree with the advice of doing trans-newtonian starts as a newbie, as I find conventional starts much less overwhelming. You can concentrate on one thing at a time. I think, though, that it can be more difficult if you happen to run into another race early-ish, because NPR's won't ever start conventional, so they have a tech advantage. I'm not sure exactly why it's said actually.

Trans-newtonian starts are generally considered easier for a newbie because your initial infrastructure is taken care of, along with your basic research (assuming you ticked that option). If you're brand new and don't know how many mines to convert from your conventional industry you can end up badly bottlenecked, for example. Of course, that can also be half the fun!

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I think I have a very good grasp of the game and as said above, the main reason is that I can slowly transcend into the game and build up my Empire from scratch. I'm also one of those people who like the early build up much better than the end game, so I enjoy the slow build up.     

I basically divided up my industry into two sections.   One part start converting old industry and building new industries to get that moving in the right direction. I also gave myself a total population on earth at 4500 million people from start, so my population there is pretty industrious and research is going at a moderately good pace. 

I'm taking my time with surveying the system and I am in no hurry to overstretch into other systems at the moment.      After about seven years (2057) I launched my first nuclear equipped survey ships. It is now a year later and I'm contemplating my first patrol frigates this will be a ship in the range of 8-10k Tones. I have more or less no clue what's best but I will make my ships rather big compared to what I see in most other people seem to do, probably not optimal.     

My ship design philosophy will be big and durable and sort of multi purpose most of the time. I assume the bigger ships will have a higher chance to survive engagements.     

Now, a new question. . .     

Exactly what does the "Max Tracking Time Bonus vs Missile" do. Is it based on your "Beam FC" or when you detect the missile on other sensors?
Seems important when I'm now about to design my first "PD Beam FC".     

[sublight]

I'm with the "first game is conventional" crowd. Sure conventional is a lot harder for empire building, but the limited option makes learning your way around the controls less intimidating on your first game. Make simple goals. Colonize Mars. Set up an automating colony. Transit a jump point. Keep going as long as wish while learning the basics, and then make your 2nd game a Transnewtonian start.

Now, a new question. . .     

Exactly what does the "Max Tracking Time Bonus vs Missile" do. Is it based on your "Beam FC" or when you detect the missile on other sensors?
Seems important when I'm now about to design my first "PD Beam FC".     

When you detect the missile.

Every 5s increment that a missile is seen by your active scanners gives you something like a cumulative 2% bonus to hitting that missile your missile defenses. Those technologies increase the maximum bonus cap. Taking advantage of the bonus requires long range missile detection.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

Ok, so I need to have good missile scanners. . .  understood!

Now, does it have to be the ships itself of can it be another ship or even ships from another "Task Group" (as long as you track the missile all the way I guess).

Another question. . .  lot's of them now.  What does the Transponders on the ship actually do?
I can activate and deactivate them, I suppose they have something to do with EM detection or not, but what function do they have in the game?

[sloanjh]

Ok, so I need to have good missile scanners. . .  understood!

Don't forget they'll need to be resolution 1 in order to have decent range against missiles.

Now, does it have to be the ships itself of can it be another ship or even ships from another "Task Group" (as long as you track the missile all the way I guess).

You need an active contact from somewhere (can be any platform anywhere in system) in order to fire at anything.  You need a fire-control system on the ship that will be firing for each target you want to fire at in the impulse you fire.  So a ship with 4 FC can fire at 4 separate targets every 5 seconds, but requires another ship (or by an active sensor on itself) to have an active contact with each of those 4 ships.  A ship with 4 active sensors can't fire at anything (unless it has fire control), but can spot target for other ships (who need on-board FC in order to be able to shoot).

Another question. . .  lot's of them now.  What does the Transponders on the ship actually do?
I can activate and deactivate them, I suppose they have something to do with EM detection or not, but what function do they have in the game?

Broadcast to everyone that you're there, without requiring them to detect you with sensors.

John

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

What would the practical application of the transponders actually be in the game?

Regarding the active sensors I have plans to use about four different levels of sensors on different kinds of ships. The larger the ship doing the searching the more levels of sensors they will get.   My basic idea would be a size 3-4 sensor with resolution 60, size 4-5 sensor with resolution 120, size 5-6 sensor with resolution 240 and a really large one later on to search for really bug ships at vast distances with size 6-7 with resolution 480.   

This would obviously be in addition to missile scanners at resolution 1 and passive scanners. 

Would this be a useful strategy at all?

My frigates (8000-12000 tones) who will do most of the scouting will be relatively large and designed very defensively and act alone most of the time. Possibly in pairs if they are in hotspots or probably relieved by heavier battle groups that use smaller crafts for scouting, such as shuttle crafts mounted in large heavy cruisers (30000-50000 tones). 

[HaliRyan]

What would the practical application of the transponders actually be in the game?

Mostly it's for RP, the only truly practical application I know of for transponders is for multiplayer or multi-faction games.

Regarding the active sensors I have plans to use a about four different levels of sensors on different kinds of ships.  The larger the ship doing the searching the more levels of sensors they will get.  My basic idea would be a size 3-4 sensor with resolution 60, size 4-5 sensor with resolution 120, size 5-6 sensor with resolution 240 and a really large one later on to search for really bug ships at vast distances with size 6-7 with resolution 480. 

This would obviously be in addition to missile scanners at resolution 1 and passive scanners.

Would this be a useful strategy at all?

It's certainly one way of doing it, although you may find you're better off with a single large sensor than having four separate sensors for different craft sizes. Especially at higher tech levels. That said, if you make a sensor-based command ship you'll definitely want a bunch of different-sized sensors.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I'm certainly going to experiment with it a little.  My calculations about the efficiency of the sensors is that adding to the size of the sensor at the same time you increase the resolution to the double mean that you will be able to get really good range and coverage with your sensors.  If you also place them in a staggered way throughout your fleet with larger resolution sensors on the larger hull size ships and smaller resolutions on the small ships you will get a very good umbrella of sensor coverage, including passive sensor bubbles.

I'm only theorising so far. . .  . . . I'm about to design my very first Frigate line of warships.  This will basically be my smallest "real" combat warship at about 10k tones.  The one below them will be colony defence gunboats at maybe 1-2k in size or so (short range missile equipped ships).
The frigates are basically my main patrol vessels and not there to actually combat any enemy real combat groups.  My main fleet assets will be my cruisers, each group will be two light cruisers (30-40k size) and a heavy cruiser at 50-60k.  The cruisers will be the backbone of my early fleets while later they will form my main picket for my super carriers 100k+.  At least this is what the Terran admirals is dreaming of in the night. . . 
In support of the cruisers I will have destroyer hunter packs, whose main job it is to sneak behind the enemy lines and attack their supply line or civilian ships if necessary, these ships will range in the size of 15-20k perhaps larger depending on technology and how easy it is for me to keep them stealthy, if it's even possible?

[Theokrat]

I'm certainly going to experiment with it a little.  My calculations about the efficiency of the sensors is that adding to the size of the sensor at the same time you increase the resolution to the double mean that you will be able to get really good range and coverage with your sensors.  If you also place them in a staggered way throughout your fleet with larger resolution sensors on the larger hull size ships and smaller resolutions on the small ships you will get a very good umbrella of sensor coverage, including passive sensor bubbles.

I'm only theorising so far. . .  . . . I'm about to design my very first Frigate line of warships.  This will basically be my smallest "real" combat warship at about 10k tones.  The one below them will be colony defence gunboats at maybe 1-2k in size or so (short range missile equipped ships).
The frigates are basically my main patrol vessels and not there to actually combat any enemy real combat groups.  My main fleet assets will be my cruisers, each group will be two light cruisers (30-40k size) and a heavy cruiser at 50-60k.  The cruisers will be the backbone of my early fleets while later they will form my main picket for my super carriers 100k+.  At least this is what the Terran admirals is dreaming of in the night. . . 
In support of the cruisers I will have destroyer hunter packs, whose main job it is to sneak behind the enemy lines and attack their supply line or civilian ships if necessary, these ships will range in the size of 15-20k perhaps larger depending on technology and how easy it is for me to keep them stealthy, if it's even possible?

Well I found raiders survive best by superiour speed, rather than a low profile. Lot's of engines, fuel and sensors (passive thermal ones I like best), and a single, tiny beam weapon...

[HaliRyan]

In support of the cruisers I will have destroyer hunter packs, whose main job it is to sneak behind the enemy lines and attack their supply line or civilian ships if necessary, these ships will range in the size of 15-20k perhaps larger depending on technology and how easy it is for me to keep them stealthy, if it's even possible?

Keeping them stealthy shouldn't be too big a problem. The main techs involved are the cloaking line and engine thermal output reduction, both in the defensive systems group.

Thermal reduction is pretty straightforward and you'll see it when designing an engine. Smaller thermal sig per engine means it's harder for them to spot your emissions. You can also slow your task group down to artificially lower their thermal emissions if you suspect a big ol' passive sensor to be nearby.

Cloaking has 3 techs once you unlock it - Efficiency, Sensor Reduction, and Minimum Size. Efficiency lets a smaller cloak affect a bigger ship, and sensor reduction reduces your effective size to enemy sensors (so a 90% reduction on a 20kt ship would result in it appearing 2kt to any active sensors in range). For a 15-20k ship you won't need to worry about minimum size.

Oh, and if you're trying to stay stealthy, remember to turn off your own active sensors! Those things scream your location to anyone nearby.