Diplomatic relations points should be reciprocal

[vorpal+5 (OP)]

I know this is debatable, debated, etc. I know that some games have them reciprocal and other not. For me, I'm in the 'it should be reciprocal'...

Let me explain. First, the real world. What are the convincing examples of a political situation where country A liked B, but country B disliked A. If it existed, it has been rare and never lasted.

Now, see the other possibility, reciprocity. This is what happens in the real world, it just makes sense. If country A has points of contention with B, then the reverse is always true.

In game now. I have this weird situation where I have 1600 diplo Points toward China. Basically, I love them. I could declare them in military cooperation (granting access to my jump points). But looking into the DB, I'm only at 300 with them (must be because I don't leave scouts from a claimed system of them    ). I'm irritating them progressively. Tensions are mounting, and we know that. I'm keeping my position, assuming the consequences of my choices.

No, I don't love them in-game, as a ruler, I know what I do, and I don't "deserve" 1600 points, 300 would be fine. Reciprocal ...

[nuclearslurpee]

In the "real world" diplomacy is much more than how much Country A "likes" Country B. It has a lot more to do with how much countries trust one another to sit down at the table and do diplomatic business. In this sense real world examples are more salient; for example, in let's just say the last few years, a certain unnamed Country A had a leader who displayed a habit of arbitrarily discarding treaties and agreements and generally haphazard foreign relations. The diplomats of Country A of course know that other countries which have been stable are still trustworthy (high diplo score) but the diplomats of other countries know that Country A cannot be trusted for this period of time even if they would like to retain their friendly relations with Country A (and thus will not antagonize them, say by sending scouts into their private territory) for the future.

In the case you're describing, it sounds like the NPR is behaving fairly "honorably" and thus not giving your government any reason to distrust them. Meanwhile, you keep sending scouts into their protected territory, so they have reason not to trust you very much. If the NPR started sending scouts into your own territory and refusing to leave when "requested" to do so, then you would have reason for your diplomatic relations to drop off.

If anything, I'd say the issue has more to do with the player/NPR asymmetry in the diplomacy mechanics, i.e. the AI rating is more reactive to player behavior whereas the player's rating is more stable on the assumption that if they player can make diplomatic decisions beyond the relations scale, for example you can decide based on whatever factors you like to grant JP access or not, but the AI is restricted to deciding in a deterministic manner based on the relations score and their racial traits. Unless Steve decides to rewrite the diplomacy AI to behave more robustly, reciprocal relations don't really make that much sense mechanically.

[Steve Walmsley]

Let me explain. First, the real world. What are the convincing examples of a political situation where country A liked B, but country B disliked A. If it existed, it has been rare and never lasted.

The most obvious one that comes to mind is when Germany attacked Russia in 1941.
https://www.history.com/news/how-stalin-was-caught-napping

[vorpal+5 (OP)]

Well, not entirely wrong Steve ... although not completely to the point, in that Stalin did not like Germany or Hitler and -- from my knowledge -- Russia/Stalin was preparing for a war around 43 with Germany. So he bid his time, not believing Hitler would be fool enough to attack Russia first.

And it did not last. Only a few years. But I see you are not convinced and you will probably keep this non-reciprocity I guess ... I still believe it leads to more weird or difficult to believe situations than reciprocal relationships.

Relationships is probably more about trust than 'love' in any case. I'm bothering seriously the Chinese in my scenario, their relationships toward me fell to 300, while I'm still at 1600 with them. It seems not very ... believable. Let say I'm a NPR and not a meat bag in control. My empire, as NPR is keeping scouts and whatnot in their territory, refusing to yield to their demands to evacuate. So they (CHI) have a 300 toward the infringing NPR. Should this NPR keeps its 1600 toward CHI, knowing it is -- on purpose -- not yielding to their demands, because it has a plan?

I don't think so. So the 1600 are not justified. This NPR, infringing on the Chinese, does not trust or love them. He is scheming for something. A reciprocal 300 would make more sense.

[nuclearslurpee]

If you think of it as "trust", I don't see why it can't make sense. China views you with suspicion because you keep violating their territorial limits. You view China with relative trust because they behave themselves. Makes sense to me. All diplo score really means is "we trust Race B to stick to the deal this much".

Also, again 1600 player diplomacy score is not the same as 1600 AI diplomacy score. There are legitimately different mechanics under the hood regarding player and AI diplomatic scores, which are necessary due to the deterministic nature of the AI. The player diplo score is not really "we like China pretty well", it's more "we trust China enough that we're pretty sure they won't use jump gate access to launch a sneak attack on Earth". Which, if you're at the same time scouting around in their protected systems, translates to "we think China is a pushover". That's really all it means, you might be scheming something but that sort of backstabbery is completely outside of the diplomacy mechanics.

[Garfunkel]

Well, not entirely wrong Steve ... although not completely to the point, in that Stalin did not like Germany or Hitler and -- from my knowledge -- Russia/Stalin was preparing for a war around 43 with Germany. So he bid his time, not believing Hitler would be fool enough to attack Russia first.

While this veers into off-topic, as a historian I have to point out that the situation between Germany and the USSR from 1939 to 1941 actually fits really well into the Aurora diplomatic model. From an antagonistic situation, both sides employed diplomatic teams in their respective capitals, they ceased propaganda aimed at the other, and they discussed which "systems" belong to one or the other, making compromises there. The Soviets were happily sending trainloads of goods into Germany even in the last day of peace while Germany was putting the finishing touches on their invasion plan.

Aurora's problem is that it doesn't model the other type of human diplomacy, where shared values and/or ideologies create alliances that last for decades despite occasional stresses caused at them.  And because we in the West are viewing diplomacy mostly through that side of it, we tend to forget or dismiss the other, more pragmatic/realpolitik version.

So I guess I don't really agree with your suggestion that reciprocal diplomacy needs to be a thing. I would love to be able to find out NPR opinion on me somehow in-game but that's about it.

[Steve Walmsley]

So I guess I don't really agree with your suggestion that reciprocal diplomacy needs to be a thing. I would love to be able to find out NPR opinion on me somehow in-game but that's about it.

It is possible to find this out through the intelligence mechanics. One of the espionage 'rewards' is learning the target race's opinion of another race, which could be your own race.

[db48x]

So I guess I don't really agree with your suggestion that reciprocal diplomacy needs to be a thing. I would love to be able to find out NPR opinion on me somehow in-game but that's about it.

It is possible to find this out through the intelligence mechanics. One of the espionage 'rewards' is learning the target race's opinion of another race, which could be your own race.

I'm with Garfunkel on this point; some form of feedback would be nice. Our diplomats should be able to gather some coarse information about their mood during their discussions. Perhaps some diplomats would be better at it than others.

But mainly it would help if it looked from time to time as if our diplomatic ships were accomplishing something.

[nuclearslurpee]

So I guess I don't really agree with your suggestion that reciprocal diplomacy needs to be a thing. I would love to be able to find out NPR opinion on me somehow in-game but that's about it.

It is possible to find this out through the intelligence mechanics. One of the espionage 'rewards' is learning the target race's opinion of another race, which could be your own race.

I'm with Garfunkel on this point; some form of feedback would be nice. Our diplomats should be able to gather some coarse information about their mood during their discussions. Perhaps some diplomats would be better at it than others.

But mainly it would help if it looked from time to time as if our diplomatic ships were accomplishing something.

I'd second this. Right now the breakpoints between different diplomatic relations are quite far apart and there's little way to sense any change in the diplomatic winds until trade relations suddenly break down. Maybe an absolute indication isn't necessary but some one-line indicator that relations are trending upwards would be useful.

[Migi]

(Diplomat name) on board (Ship Name) believes our relationship with (Empire Name) has (greatly/slightly/moderately + improved/worsened/ remains broadly unchanged) since the last report.

It would make the log more cluttered, no doubt someone will complain about that.

[xenoscepter]

(Diplomat name) on board (Ship Name) believes our relationship with (Empire Name) has (greatly/slightly/moderately + improved/worsened/ remains broadly unchanged) since the last report.

 - This would actually be better if we had a "Status Report" order, both on a per ship basis and a per fleet basis... maybe with a checkbox to give the order to all sub-fleets and / or all fleets within a naval command(s). Prevents log clutter AND allows us a more RP friendly way of checking up on a ship.

 - Status Report for a diplo ship could be affected by intelligence level, too. "We think we've made good progress" versus, "We're pretty sure we are making good progress, but intel says otherwise." versus, "We are confident in our progress and intel is, too." Other ships might be, "We're low on fuel / MSP / etc.", "Our life support systems are failing.", "Minor atmosphere venting, life support damaged, but holding", "Venting across multiple decks, Reactor leak detected, Jump Drive is damaged and Damage Control underway, but insufficient supply to repair the Jump Drive."

 - And so on and so forth. No idea how hard that might be though.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

So I guess I don't really agree with your suggestion that reciprocal diplomacy needs to be a thing. I would love to be able to find out NPR opinion on me somehow in-game but that's about it.

It is possible to find this out through the intelligence mechanics. One of the espionage 'rewards' is learning the target race's opinion of another race, which could be your own race.

I'm with Garfunkel on this point; some form of feedback would be nice. Our diplomats should be able to gather some coarse information about their mood during their discussions. Perhaps some diplomats would be better at it than others.

But mainly it would help if it looked from time to time as if our diplomatic ships were accomplishing something.

If nothing else, some sort of feedback so I know when the ship I was talking to has frakked off out of the system, rather than finding out I've had a diplomatic ship sitting on a jump point not talking to anybody for 5 years.

[vorpal+5 (OP)]

As a side note, I have my fellows Earthlings mass producing diplo ships. China just launched its 15th. Don't know if this is 'normal', although your millage may vary!

[Steve Walmsley]

It's not realistic to know the exact NPR view of your race. However, you can infer a lot about the relationship status by what the NPR does. If it gives trade treaties or higher, the status is improving. If those treaties are rescinded, then the status is going down. If NPR messages become more urgent, then the status is going down.

See my latest campaign for a good example of this. It was obvious from the NPR messages that hostilities were getting closer.

You should not be in a situation where you are surprised that an NPR suddenly attacks.

[Steve Walmsley]

If nothing else, some sort of feedback so I know when the ship I was talking to has frakked off out of the system, rather than finding out I've had a diplomatic ship sitting on a jump point not talking to anybody for 5 years.

If you aren't receiving updates about the relationship with the aliens, their diplo ship has left.