Refit mechanics? How do they work exactly?

[simast (OP)]

I have read about the C# changes post detailing new refit size restriction (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg117467#msg117467) and was under the impression that I just need to make sure my new ship is within 20% percent margin of both size (tonnage) and cost (build points).

But then I have this situation in my shipyard:



Shipyard is refitted for Centurion [2083]. Take a look at both ships:

Code: [Select]

Centurion [2083] class Carrier      45 374 tons       924 Crew       7 769.8 BP       TCS 907    TH 5 445    EM 0
6000 km/s      Armour 10-113       Shields 0-0       HTK 189      Sensors 80/80/0/0      DCR 36      PPV 64.84
Maint Life 1.30 Years     MSP 5 712    AFR 1029%    IFR 14.3%    1YR 3 577    5YR 53 651    Max Repair 1361.2 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 12 000 tons     Troop Capacity 500 tons     Boarding Capable    Magazine 432   
Rear Admiral (Lower Half)    Control Rating 6   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   FLG   PFC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 240    Morale Check Required   

P2722-F104 Magneto-Plasma Drive [2083] (2)    Power 5444.8    Fuel Use 104.43%    Signature 2722.4    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 6 000 000 Litres    Range 22.8 billion km (43 days at full power)

Twin H100 Gauss Cannon Turret [2081] (4x6)    Range 30 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30 000 km    ROF 5       
TS20-R48 Beam Fire Control [2073] (4)     Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 20 000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

Tornado Anti-Ship Missile [2081] (72)    Speed: 27 333 km/s    End: 6.1m     Range: 10m km    WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 154/92/46

R100-S420 Active Search Sensor [2083] (1)     GPS 42000     Range 151.8m km    Resolution 100
R1-S42 Active Search Sensor [2083] (2)     GPS 42     Range 10.3m km    MCR 930.8k km    Resolution 1
S80 Thermal Sensor [2083] (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70.7m km
S80 EM Sensor [2083] (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70.7m km

Strike Group
12x Vulcan [2080] Fighter   Speed: 12817 km/s    Size: 4.99
18x Raptor [2082] Bomber   Speed: 12824 km/s    Size: 9.98

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Walrus [2049] class Freighter      38 275 tons       121 Crew       427.2 BP       TCS 765    TH 500    EM 0
653 km/s      Armour 1-101       Shields 0-0       HTK 55      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 86    Max Repair 50 MSP
Cargo 25 000    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 2   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months   

P63-F10 Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine [2049] (8)    Power 500.0    Fuel Use 10.06%    Signature 62.5    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres    Range 46.7 billion km (828 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

This is so frustrating, because sometimes I would replace some components in the ship (but keeping cost/size within 20% gap) and yet will be unable to refit to the new design. While sometimes this happens when both ships literally have nothing in common but are valid refit targets..

Does anyone understand the full refit mechanics as applied in Aurora C#?

[Gyrfalcon]

I can imagine the ship yard's owner rubbing their hands together in glee at the price tag they can attach to taking one old, rusting freighter and rebuilding it into a modern spacecraft carrier at the low, low price of roughly 150% of the cost of building the carrier from scratch.

[skoormit]

EDIT: That looks very much like a bug. Not a bug. See upcoming response, below.

Notice that the refit cost is 10k+. That's essentially the cost of building the Centurion from scratch, plus the 25% refit premium, plus the size difference premium.

I don't suppose you have commas as your decimal separator?

[Jorgen_CAB]

If I remember correctly it is the components that you swap out in relation to the cost of the ships original configuration... that is why a cargo ship often can refit to allot of other ships if the same size as long as they use the same engines and number of engines as the engines are such a large cost of a cargo ship.

Example 1.

A cargo ship might cost 1200 BP of which 1100 are the cost of the engines, armour, crew, engineering etc. So this ship only replace cost of less then 10%

If you take you brand new missile cruiser and you fir new engines that is a large part of the ships cost you might not be able to get that within the 20% limit if the engines of the old ships is more than 20% if the ships cost.

For refit you don't want any single type of component that need to be replaced in one single go to cost more than 20% of the ships total cost. This can usually be more problematic the higher up in technology you get with some components as some components such as engineering, crew, hangars etc don't scale in cost while many other do.

The steep cost is also intentional as since you add so many components you pay a hefty extra price for each of them that the final cost becomes huge... you are not suppose to refit a container cargo vessel with fleet carrier and get away with it without paying the price for such fooling endeavours.. 

[Second Foundationer]

I'm still getting to grips with all new features myself. But I think the cost restriction refers only to being able to tool a shipyard for one class, and then build two or more different classes without retooling. I often use that for colony and cargo ships: tool the shipyard for the more expensive ship (in my case, the colony ship) and that same shipyard will also be able to build the cheaper one (freighter) without retooling because refitting the colony ship to the freighter for less than 20 %. The new rule is that the second class also has to satisfy the 20% size restriction. In VB6, there was a tab in the ship design window that told you what other classes would be eligible for construction without retooling (I think it was the Miscellaneous tab). I haven't seen that in C#. I hope it comes back.

If I'm right you can refit anything as long it satisfies the size restriction, at astronomical cost.

[skoormit]

You can refit from ship A to ship B as long as B is within 20% of the size of ship A.

The cost of the refit is based on the cost of the components in B that are not in A, plus the size difference between B and A.

There is no restriction based on cost. The only restriction is size.
As your example shows, you are allowed to make some very extreme makeovers, but you will pay through the nose for them.

[StevioM]

Ok, so this I still do not get.

I’ve made a geo craft and a grav craft.  Both 1,000 tonnes.  Only difference is the sensor module.  I cannot build both at the same yard even though size and build cost is the same.

Is this intended, or am I misunderstanding another mechanic? I thought if writhing 20% size and shipyard rolled to most expensive build points I should be able to construct either?

Ta!

[Second Foundationer]

Ok, so this I still do not get.

I’ve made a geo craft and a grav craft.  Both 1,000 tonnes.  Only difference is the sensor module.  I cannot build both at the same yard even though size and build cost is the same.

Is this intended, or am I misunderstanding another mechanic? I thought if writhing 20% size and shipyard rolled to most expensive build points I should be able to construct either?

Ta!

It depends on the absolute cost of your ship (indirectly that means: size, but the calculation is based on cost). If ripping out the geo sensors and putting in the grav sensors would cost more than the 20 % of the total, you can't build them in one shipyard. The components tab shows you the % cost of your geo/grav sensor. It doesn't even work with my current Ion-age 6,000 ton ships. They are exactly the same, they differ only in geo/grav, but the rest of the ship is too cheap.

In VB6, I sometimes got it to work when I built very large long-range ships. And possibly at advanced tech, with very expensive engines (not sure??). Another thing I sometimes did to make them buildable in one shipyard is secondary-use ships: Have a geoship with, say, 3 geo/1 grav sensors and a gravship with 3 grav/1 geo.

But in C# right now, it takes some calculations to know beforehand. I usually stick with trial & error until that display comes back.

[skoormit]

Ok, so this I still do not get.

I’ve made a geo craft and a grav craft.  Both 1,000 tonnes.  Only difference is the sensor module.  I cannot build both at the same yard even though size and build cost is the same.

Is this intended, or am I misunderstanding another mechanic? I thought if writhing 20% size and shipyard rolled to most expensive build points I should be able to construct either?

Ta!

Being eligible to build ship A at a yard tooled for ship B is a different question than being able to refit ship A to ship B.

The co-build requirements are that:
1) The yard is big enough to build ship A.
2) The total cost of components in ship A that are not in ship B does not exceed some percentage of the cost of ship B. I think that percentage is 20%.

[StevioM]

Ok, so if I whacked a load of engines in there bringing the value of the company down? It’s basically 25% now because it is 1,000 - something to try.  Thanks guys!

[xenoscepter]

Have you tried using Electronic Hardening 1 on your Survey Ships sensors? How about Thermal Reduction on their engines? It makes them more expensive w/o making them bigger.

[StevioM]

Ok, so if I whacked a load of engines in there bringing the value of the company down? It’s basically 25% now because it is 1,000 - something to try.   Thanks guys!

Nope, gonna have to chalk this one up to I don't know.

added an engine to both which altered the survey sensor from 25% to 17%.  Even threw in some fuel on one of the designs so that one was 'bigger' than the other. . .  no dice.

Will keep trying.

Thanks for the suggestions

[Father Tim]

Ok, so this I still do not get.

I’ve made a geo craft and a grav craft.  Both 1,000 tonnes.  Only difference is the sensor module.  I cannot build both at the same yard even though size and build cost is the same.

Is this intended, or am I misunderstanding another mechanic? I thought if writhing 20% size and shipyard rolled to most expensive build points I should be able to construct either?

Ta!

Being eligible to build ship A at a yard tooled for ship B is a different question than being able to refit ship A to ship B.

The co-build requirements are that:
1) The yard is big enough to build ship A.
2) The total cost of components in ship A that are not in ship B does not exceed some percentage of the cost of ship B. I think that percentage is 20%.

2) is actually "the cost to refit B to A is not more than 20% of the cost of B"

Refit costs include a portion of the removed systems (one-half or one-qaurter, I think) plus the full cost of the installed systems plus the cost of any increase in displacement plus (in VB Aurora, anyway) a small surcharge (ten percent, I think).

The quick rule of thumb is a cargo ship that is basically the same as a colony ship, but with cargo holds instead of cryo berths, can be built in the colony yard but not the other way around; and a survey ship design that only trades geo for grav (or vice versa) can't be built in the same yard unless it's stupidly expensive (at which point improved or even superior survey sensors are available, and now it needs to be stupidly, stupidly expensive).  If you want to save yourself from a separate yard (or constant retooling) for survey ships stick one each of grav & geo on the hull.

[Omnivore]

The bizzare and unrealistic (C-130 anyone?) slip/yard sharing implementation has me invoking the "Avoid insanity by cheating at solitaire rule exception".

The easiest workaround at low techs is to make a copy of the yard's tooled-for design.  Add a component or two so it is different yet not outside the implementation's rules for sharing.  Name it "Stand In for XXX".  Build.  When it pops out, delete it and SM in the design you wanted.  (Example usage: Gravsurvey on Geosurvey slip.)