Ground Force Fortification Question

[Fistandantillus7 (OP)]

This is your brain…
This is your brain on drugs…
This is your brain on Aurora 4X…

This may be the most ridiculous question, but I have read parts or all of at least 12 threads and the wiki and my brain has short circuited.

From the wiki:

Construction elements will work on any element in their own formation or that formation's subordinate hierarchy that has already reached its max self-fortification level. If the construction element's formation has no subordinate, the Construction elements will work on any element in their own formation's parent formation or in that parent formation's subordinate hierarchy that has already reached its max self-fortification level.

This means you can attach a construction-based formation directly to a formation you need fortified, or you can attach to a HQ and it will fortify every formation descending from that HQ. Construction elements can only assist elements that are on the same system body (they can be in different populations on the same body).

Scenario: 'Formation A' has two subordinate formations, 'Formation B' and 'Formation C'. Formation C is the only one that contains construction elements. Given enough time, all elements of formations A, B and C will be fortified beyond their self-fortification level to their maximum fortification level. Yes?

Continuing scenario: Formation A has an HQ element. Formation B has a subordinate 'Formation D' which itself has subordinate formations. Given enough time, all elements of formation D and all its subordinates will be fortified beyond their self-fortification level to their maximum fortification level. Yes?

[nuclearslurpee]

You should be correct on both counts, assuming all is WAI.

[Migi]

I had some groups of units which didn't appear to fortify each other, they were on the same planet but not part of a hierarchy.
You didn't ask about this situation but it might be useful information for you.

[Fistandantillus7 (OP)]

A completely unrelated ground forces question. It seemed ok to hijack my own thread.

I designed some GF formations and then realized the numbers would be off when grouped into a hierarchy. So I redesigned, and started building (training?). Turns out I missed fixing what I call my 'Xenoarchaeology Battalion', which I discovered when it would not fit into my troop transports. Is there any way to break apart the incorrect formations into the individual units and rearrange them into the correct formations? I assume the answer is no, but… If they were fighting formations I could designate them as 'use for reinforcements' (recent thread here in The Academy), but that does not apply in this case.

[nuclearslurpee]

AFAIK there is no way to split a formation. The closest you can get is to build a bare-bones formation (probably just a HQ unit), set it to the desired formation template, and then use the replacements system or transfer elements manually.

[Fistandantillus7 (OP)]

…or transfer elements manually.

How does one do that?

[Density]

…or transfer elements manually.

How does one do that?

In the ground forces screen (on the default order of battle tab), click the checkbox for "show elements" (and "amount popup" if you know you're splitting stacks of things). Then you can expand formations and drag elements to other formations.

[Fistandantillus7 (OP)]

Thanks Density, I will try that.

More questions though.

I was thinking of simply creating a formation with an HQ to cover everything I have already built, and use two TT ships. But then I wondered, can I do spacemaster magic? If I alter the erroneous formation template will the ones already built change to the new template? (1/4 joking, I'm afraid my computer might blow up if I try, but more seriously of creating formations with the same name and different compositions)

If I have a formation with two 10,000t HQ units can it support a hierarchy of 20,000t?

[Fistandantillus7 (OP)]

Oh, yes I am scatter-brained, if I change a formation template while one is half built, will the finished formation be the old one or the new one?

[Density]

Oh, yes I am scatter-brained, if I change a formation template while one is half built, will the finished formation be the old one or the new one?

If formations for a given template are under construction, the game will not allow you to alter that template. You may, however, alter it afterwards once this is no longer the case.

[Density]

I was thinking of simply creating a formation with an HQ to cover everything I have already built, and use two TT ships. But then I wondered, can I do spacemaster magic? If I alter the erroneous formation template will the ones already built change to the new template? (1/4 joking, I'm afraid my computer might blow up if I try, but more seriously of creating formations with the same name and different compositions)

Formation templates are not ship classes, and are not tied that closely to the formations. That is, altering a formation does nothing to existing formations (aside from changing what gets pulled from replacement formations).

If I have a formation with two 10,000t HQ units can it support a hierarchy of 20,000t?

No.

Redundant HQs reduce the chance of the officer getting killed when an HQ is destroyed.

[nuclearslurpee]

If I have a formation with two 10,000t HQ units can it support a hierarchy of 20,000t?

No.

Redundant HQs reduce the chance of the officer getting killed when an HQ is destroyed.

They actually do not, and if you work out the math you will see that multiple HQs actually very slightly increases the chance for a commander to be killed.

The way commander deaths work is if you have N headquarters units and one is destroyed, there is a 1/N random chance that the commander is killed. However, it is also N times more likely for a the HQ element to be targeted and thus hit in the first place, so the result is that the commander is killed at the same overall rate.

However, since these additional HQ units take up tonnage in your formation (assuming you built your formation up to the tonnage limit of your HQ), combat units must be replaced to make room for the additional HQ units. Since HQ units are usually marked as "Non-Combat Units" in the ground unit creation screen, this small reduction in "Combat Units" in the formation causes the HQ element to be targeted slightly more than N times. It is a small effect but readily derived.

The benefit of multiple HQs is really that if one HQ unit is destroyed, it is possible to immediately replace the commander to preserve the formation command hierarchy (== bonuses passed down the chain) and provide combat bonuses to that formation and subordinates. However, usually it is best to place superior HQs in support or rear echelon formations where they are rarely targeted anyways, and the number of available commanders tends to be the biggest limitation on ground forces so there are not many spare commanders to use as replacements, if any. Because of this I usually don't consider having multiple HQ units to be very worthwhile, especially because the larger HQs tend to be overly expensive which can drive up the build cost of a formation significantly.

[Density]

If I have a formation with two 10,000t HQ units can it support a hierarchy of 20,000t?

No.

Redundant HQs reduce the chance of the officer getting killed when an HQ is destroyed.

They actually do not, and if you work out the math you will see that multiple HQs actually very slightly increases the chance for a commander to be killed.

The way commander deaths work is if you have N headquarters units and one is destroyed, there is a 1/N random chance that the commander is killed. However, it is also N times more likely for a the HQ element to be targeted and thus hit in the first place, so the result is that the commander is killed at the same overall rate.

However, since these additional HQ units take up tonnage in your formation (assuming you built your formation up to the tonnage limit of your HQ), combat units must be replaced to make room for the additional HQ units. Since HQ units are usually marked as "Non-Combat Units" in the ground unit creation screen, this small reduction in "Combat Units" in the formation causes the HQ element to be targeted slightly more than N times. It is a small effect but readily derived.

The benefit of multiple HQs is really that if one HQ unit is destroyed, it is possible to immediately replace the commander to preserve the formation command hierarchy (== bonuses passed down the chain) and provide combat bonuses to that formation and subordinates. However, usually it is best to place superior HQs in support or rear echelon formations where they are rarely targeted anyways, and the number of available commanders tends to be the biggest limitation on ground forces so there are not many spare commanders to use as replacements, if any. Because of this I usually don't consider having multiple HQ units to be very worthwhile, especially because the larger HQs tend to be overly expensive which can drive up the build cost of a formation significantly.

I didn't say it reduces the chance of an officer being killed in a given combat round. I said when (not if) one is destroyed. But I cede the point, as I see how it would be read by most.

As an aside... I wasn't aware that ground command hierarchy was properly passing on bonuses. When did that get fixed?

[nuclearslurpee]

As an aside... I wasn't aware that ground command hierarchy was properly passing on bonuses. When did that get fixed?

I really don't know if it has been or not, as reports seem quite conflicting, but I choose to play as if it is.

[ISN]

If I have a formation with two 10,000t HQ units can it support a hierarchy of 20,000t?

No.

Redundant HQs reduce the chance of the officer getting killed when an HQ is destroyed.

They actually do not, and if you work out the math you will see that multiple HQs actually very slightly increases the chance for a commander to be killed.

The way commander deaths work is if you have N headquarters units and one is destroyed, there is a 1/N random chance that the commander is killed. However, it is also N times more likely for a the HQ element to be targeted and thus hit in the first place, so the result is that the commander is killed at the same overall rate.

However, since these additional HQ units take up tonnage in your formation (assuming you built your formation up to the tonnage limit of your HQ), combat units must be replaced to make room for the additional HQ units. Since HQ units are usually marked as "Non-Combat Units" in the ground unit creation screen, this small reduction in "Combat Units" in the formation causes the HQ element to be targeted slightly more than N times. It is a small effect but readily derived.

The benefit of multiple HQs is really that if one HQ unit is destroyed, it is possible to immediately replace the commander to preserve the formation command hierarchy (== bonuses passed down the chain) and provide combat bonuses to that formation and subordinates. However, usually it is best to place superior HQs in support or rear echelon formations where they are rarely targeted anyways, and the number of available commanders tends to be the biggest limitation on ground forces so there are not many spare commanders to use as replacements, if any. Because of this I usually don't consider having multiple HQ units to be very worthwhile, especially because the larger HQs tend to be overly expensive which can drive up the build cost of a formation significantly.

If you have more than one HQ unit it is actually possible for your commander to survive all HQ units being destroyed. I'm not exactly sure how this works or if it's working as intended -- it might be that if all HQ units are destroyed on the same increment the game just uses the same 1/N for each one, in which case your commander can get lucky and roll the 1-1/N each time and survive. But from looking at an ongoing battle in my game I'm not sure that's the whole story: I typically build units with 2 HQ units, giving a 1/2 chance of survival each time an HQ unit is wiped out, or a 1/4 chance if both are destroyed simultaneously. I have several formations with all HQ units destroyed, but most of them still have commanders assigned, far more than the 1/4 I'd expect (and really there should be even fewer because the HQ units won't always be destroyed simultaneously). It's possible I've just gotten lucky, but I seem to recall seeing similar things in other battles.