Author Topic: Impact Physics  (Read 28395 times)

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Offline sublight

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2012, 09:08:53 PM »
Obscene energies just make either a bigger explosion or a longer 'explosion.'

500PJ is, what, a 200 mega-ton explosion?

A direct impact with a small rocky body like an asteroid would possibly end with lots of smaller asteroids.

A direct impact on Earth would be mostly just spectacular when the missile disintegrates into a fireball over 60km up. At that distance up into the mesosphere I would't expect much physical damage to the planet or infrastructure, although some might get blinded if they were looking in the wrong direction at the wrong time.

Earth's atmosphere acts like a really really good Whipple Shield.

I tried entering the problem into an online asteroid-impact simulators, but they all rejected anything moving at that speed. So I tried again, using a 198,000 ton asteroid moving at 71 km/s with "Impact: Earth!". The greater momentum and ablative mass allowed the projectile to close to 7.4 km above the surface before loosing integrity and disintegrating into a 115 mega-ton air-burst, with small chunks raining down to the surface without leaving any creater. According to the report, the air-burst would produce a 74 dB of noise at a spot 100 km away on the ground.

Any planet with a decent atmosphere probably doesn't have to worry. Your mining colonies might need to worry.
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2012, 03:01:55 AM »
I think we calculated all that about 20 pages back.
General consensus was that it would probably damage the ecosphere, but not be a direct thread to anything living on the surface.
Nukes will be noticeably more effective.
 

Offline ollobrains

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2012, 04:00:11 AM »
yeah invasion works the best once everything else is dealt with
 

Offline jseah

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2012, 07:04:16 AM »
How about mid-range tech and a larger planet-buster missile?

20 tons (40tons full load) with 60kkm/s relative?  That's... 36 000 PJ.  Or 14.4 gigaton explosion.  (@200 mtons to 500PJ)

Tangent: what's after P again?  =P


http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/cgi-bin/crater.cgi?dist=1&diam=0.8419&pdens=8000&pdens_select=0&vel=60000&theta=90&tdens=1000&tdens_select=0

Doesn't do very much apparently. 
Needs to go up to 200kkm/s for a 20ton iron ball to break windows 1km away from impact site. 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 07:14:57 AM by jseah »
 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2012, 08:13:14 AM »
I have very, very serious doubts about the accuracy of that calculator at 200,000 km/s (or .67c).  It's designed for asteroids at dozens of km/s, so take any numbers with a couple kilograms of salt.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2012, 11:14:31 AM »
Most of what is discussed here goes right over my head, i have to admit.

Something my common sense (allways dangerous to use in this kind of threats :)  ) tells me is, that it highly doubts the projectile even has _time_ to breake up. It hits the atmorphere at 60.000 km/s, not the 30ish km/s of your regular asteroid. How does the atmosphere interact with that, would the missile have time to even react in any way or would it be through the atmosphere before any effect can take effect?
Or would the atmosphere be like a brick-wall, turning the missile into a ball of plasma? And then what? Whould the plasma be stoped dead in it´s track (I doubt that) or hit the ground at a somwhat slower, but still very significant speed?

Just a few things I am wondering, perhaps more knowledgable people can enlighten me ;)
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2012, 12:27:44 PM »
Most of what is discussed here goes right over my head, i have to admit.

Something my common sense (allways dangerous to use in this kind of threats :)  ) tells me is, that it highly doubts the projectile even has _time_ to breake up. It hits the atmorphere at 60.000 km/s, not the 30ish km/s of your regular asteroid. How does the atmosphere interact with that, would the missile have time to even react in any way or would it be through the atmosphere before any effect can take effect?
Or would the atmosphere be like a brick-wall, turning the missile into a ball of plasma? And then what? Whould the plasma be stoped dead in it´s track (I doubt that) or hit the ground at a somwhat slower, but still very significant speed?

Just a few things I am wondering, perhaps more knowledgable people can enlighten me ;)
I'm gonna go with brick wall.  A simple dynamic pressure calculation says that at 50 km altitude and 60,000 km/s, a projectile will experience a pressure of 1.95 TPa (TeraPascals) or 2.83e11 Psi.  That's way, way above the strength of any material I know, and the density (which dynamic pressure is proportional to) is only .00108 kg/m3, as opposed to 1.225 at sea level.  So the object will suffer mechanical failure in the high atmosphere.  At the same time, 1.95 TPa will also slow down the projectile.  If it has a sectional density of 10,000 kg/m2, the resulting acceleration will be 1.95e8 m/s2.  That's a very, very large number, and that means a lot of heat will be produced.
If it takes the projectile .001667 seconds to traverse the atmosphere, and over that time the above acceleration is constant (both of which are wrong, but I'm trying to get a handle on how much heat is generated), then over that time, the projectile will decelerate by 325 km/s.  For each kilogram of projectile, that amounts to 19.4 terajoules of heat generated.  That's more then enough to flash-vaporize the whole thing, even if 90% goes into the atmosphere, no matter what it's made of.
I know that TransNewtonian materials might change the values, but to survive, an object would have to be orders of magnitude more durable then anything we can make today.
As for what the resulting plasma would do, I'm under the impression that it would rapidly expand, reducing sectional density and slowing down faster and faster, so that it stops in the upper atmosphere.  The big problem would not be the projectile's momentum, but the energy it carries.  I'm not saying that any of this would be pleasant to be around, but it's going to behave more like a high-altitude bomb then a physical projectile.
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Offline jseah

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2012, 12:41:58 PM »
I have very, very serious doubts about the accuracy of that calculator at 200,000 km/s (or .67c).  It's designed for asteroids at dozens of km/s, so take any numbers with a couple kilograms of salt.
Of course most of that would be way off, but it at least has some justification. 

Also, played around with the numbers on the calculator a bit and it needs around a 37 meter radius iron ball to reach the ground at 60kkm/s.  Aka. you need to slam a destroyer sized missile to do any real damage.  (75km radius fireball is pretty nice)

http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/cgi-bin/crater.cgi?dist=75&diam=37&pdens=8000&pdens_select=0&vel=60000&theta=90&tdens=1000&tdens_select=0

Although a destroyer would have rather lower density and so would need to be *even* bigger. 
 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2012, 02:02:38 PM »
Of course most of that would be way off, but it at least has some justification. 

Also, played around with the numbers on the calculator a bit and it needs around a 37 meter radius iron ball to reach the ground at 60kkm/s.  Aka. you need to slam a destroyer sized missile to do any real damage.  (75km radius fireball is pretty nice)

http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/cgi-bin/crater.cgi?dist=75&diam=37&pdens=8000&pdens_select=0&vel=60000&theta=90&tdens=1000&tdens_select=0

Although a destroyer would have rather lower density and so would need to be *even* bigger. 
No, it would not reach the ground at all.  As noted previously, it would disintegrate in the upper atmosphere, and, though my knowledge of material failure is far from complete, I believe it would probably become a fairly fine powder, slowing down rapidly, and dumping a lot of heat into the atmosphere.  Think really big nuke.  I'm not saying it would be pleasant, but no body of reasonable size will be able to survive such treatment.  Note that I say reasonable size.  If you slammed something like the moon into Earth at 60 Mm/s, then yes, it probably would reach the ground more or less intact.
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Offline jseah

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2012, 03:11:59 PM »
Which was why I was slowly increasing the radius diameter of that iron ball until it did reach the ground in the calculator.  If you just increase the size, at *some* point, something will be left to reach the ground. 

You might also note that according to the calculator, the bits left are traveling only just over 1/3 of their original speed and have spread out into a circle 0.256km in diameter.  And isn't a complete chunk anymore.  Perhaps the only thing reaching the ground would be the 75km wide fireball...

So, in *your* opinion, approximately how big would the ball need to be for something to reach the ground?  Maybe a battleship (say 100meters?) would reach the ground?  =P
Perhaps we could model it as a increasingly dense particle beam travelling at 60kkm/s ablating the surface of the ball of iron. 


Obviously, their assumptions about how the projectile breaks up needs to be looked at rather closely to see if they become significantly inaccurate at high speeds.  And I suspect they would be since this calculator is made for asteroid impacts...

EDIT: you might also note that the calculator says the projectile breaks up at 145km from the ground. 

----------------

As a side note: it would be really cool to watch such an impact.  From a safe distance of course, like from orbit.  100 meter wide ship slamming into a planet isn't going to be very healthy from inside the atmosphere...

EDIT2:
Screw practicality.  Like the "boost ship to lightspeed" megaproject, I think I will add in an optional component: "point at planet with atmosphere for hugely-impractical relativistic iron bomb"
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 03:14:47 PM by jseah »
 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2012, 03:44:52 PM »
Which was why I was slowly increasing the radius diameter of that iron ball until it did reach the ground in the calculator.  If you just increase the size, at *some* point, something will be left to reach the ground. 

You might also note that according to the calculator, the bits left are traveling only just over 1/3 of their original speed and have spread out into a circle 0.256km in diameter.  And isn't a complete chunk anymore.  Perhaps the only thing reaching the ground would be the 75km wide fireball...

So, in *your* opinion, approximately how big would the ball need to be for something to reach the ground?  Maybe a battleship (say 100meters?) would reach the ground?  =P
Perhaps we could model it as a increasingly dense particle beam travelling at 60kkm/s ablating the surface of the ball of iron. 
I don't think it would happen in any meaningful way for any object that is of non-astronomical size.  First, the calculator does not take into account entry heating on the object.  Normally not a big deal, but when you get to these sort of velocities, slowing down any releases enough heat to turn everything in the area into plasma.  Second, the fragments in question will be pulverized.  At terapascals of pressure, tenths of a percent variations in pressure will cause failures.  That makes them very small, which means they lose energy more quickly.  Which in turn causes the heating mentioned earlier.  The object quite literally will turn into plasma, which makes the question of "reaching the ground" moot.  By the calculator's model, the chunks that reach the ground are under dynamic pressures on the order of 20 TPa.  I really doubt that they'd survive to get to that point.

Quote
Obviously, their assumptions about how the projectile breaks up needs to be looked at rather closely to see if they become significantly inaccurate at high speeds.  And I suspect they would be since this calculator is made for asteroid impacts...

EDIT: you might also note that the calculator says the projectile breaks up at 145km from the ground. 
There are varying degrees of "high speed".  You could say that high speed is what you do on the highway (100 km/hr) or what an airliner does (1000 km/hr).  Neither is terribly relevant to supersonic flight, which can be over 1 km/s.  In much the same way, a model that is good for things at 5-60 km/s is unlikely to be good for things at 60,000 km/s.  The failure height makes sense.  I would like to point out, though, that it is disintegrating at an altitude 50% greater then the technical definition of 'space'.  I used 50 km because it was a nice round number and my tables didn't go much higher.
Another thing is that we have absolutely no experience dealing with objects in this velocity range.  At all.
I read through some of the documentation (http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/Content/pdf/Documentation.pdf) and it is definitely not intended for impacts in the range we're using it for.  In fact, the newer version (http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth) doesn't go beyond 72 km/s, which makes me suspect that the authors consider it to be inaccurate above that velocity.
The program saying that it reached the ground intact is an artifact of the way the program handles breakup.  It says airburst when the projectile reaches 7 times original diameter.  You kept increasing diameter until it just stopped telling you that (particularly as it told me 36m airburst at 225m), when actually, it would have broken up when it was probably twice original diameter.
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Offline ollobrains

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2012, 10:28:37 PM »
Heating of the entry to atmosphere could be calculated by if they wanted to resistance and burning up.  What about some form of heat shielding on missiles at advanced technologies with advanced ECM being added to.

The other option is the ability to attach engines to asteroids and ramming them at planets.  Could be another addition to game and has been proposed as future weapons technology
 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2012, 12:00:32 AM »
Heating of the entry to atmosphere could be calculated by if they wanted to resistance and burning up.  What about some form of heat shielding on missiles at advanced technologies with advanced ECM being added to.

The other option is the ability to attach engines to asteroids and ramming them at planets.  Could be another addition to game and has been proposed as future weapons technology

It's not that difficult to calculate.  Almost all of the lost kinetic energy goes into heat.
And good luck finding a heat shield that will take those kinds of stress.  Or those kinds of heat.

If you're going to destroy a planet, just nuke it.  It's easier and cheaper.
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Offline jseah

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2012, 03:31:57 AM »
If you're going to destroy a planet, just nuke it.  It's easier and cheaper.
I'm not sure about that.  Sorium is more abundant than anything else now (eg. Tritium for warheads) and mines faster than anything else. 

And fuel is ridiculously energy dense; which can be packed into a high speed projectile by a high speed ship shooting a high delta-v missile, all without increasing the missile's weight. 
Even if the missile turns into plasma in the upper atmosphere (I think you mentioned 50km?), the resulting nuclear fireball could be big enough to reach the ground. 

I mean, by middle of the tech levels, missiles in high speed runs would be thrown from opposite the system and have relative velocities up to ~100 kkm/s.  20 ton missile at 60kkm/s relative is 200 megatons, scaling by square of speed (which is roughly linear wrt. fuel efficiency?). 
I don't think you could stuff a nuke warhead into a 20ton missile that would match that yield at the same tech level and fuel is certainly cheaper than warheads.  Sure, nukes would be a ground level detonation and you need it to hit something important, but both have terminal guidance. (high speed missile is also harder to block due to less reaction time)


At the very least, sorium warheads, if possible, would beat anything else for cost. 
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Impact Physics
« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2012, 04:01:55 AM »
I would agree with byron that a relatively slow missile that can transit the atmsphere is going to be more effective that one that is basically trying to shove it out the way.

I'm now wondering if the best planetary defense would actually just be a bunch of terraformers that busily pumped up the atmosphere density to the maximum tolerances of my inhabitants.