Author Topic: Comments Thread  (Read 17298 times)

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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #90 on: June 15, 2019, 05:23:09 AM »
Yes, your units can bombard the enemy even though they are on the defensive. Steve explained the mechanics in the ground combat updates here:http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg109786#msg109786
most notably this paragraph:
Quote
Supporting medium artillery will choose between hostile forces in Front-Line or Support field positions (and will ignore any elements in Rear Echelon field position for purposes of relative size), while heavy artillery can select targets in any field position.
So your medium and heavy artillery, plus your long-range artillery (which was added after Steve made that post, hence why it's not included in the text), will bombard enemy units even if your own front-line units are not attacking. In addition, you can have ground-support fighters, space fighters, and space ships bombarding the enemy ground units, either via supporting your own units or as separate bombardment attacks.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #91 on: June 15, 2019, 07:06:53 AM »
Well that's going to be interesting. So if both sides are defending, do they still take damage ? (Small engagements, ect, essentially attrition warfare) Also, is it possible to have a special attack where your units "siege down" an enemy position, by using only artillery to attack ? Kind of like the massive artillery duels of the Great War.

Units on the front line are always engaging. The difference between Front Line-Defense and Front Line-Offense is that the Defense allows them to fortify and benefit from fortification bonuses, while Offense gets a Breakthrough rating bonus, which potentially allows an extra attack at the rear areas of the enemy forces.

Combat between heavily fortified parties would definitely feel like the sort of static warfare you see during the First World War.

Yes, your units can bombard the enemy even though they are on the defensive. Steve explained the mechanics in the ground combat updates here:http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg109786#msg109786
most notably this paragraph:
Quote
Supporting medium artillery will choose between hostile forces in Front-Line or Support field positions (and will ignore any elements in Rear Echelon field position for purposes of relative size), while heavy artillery can select targets in any field position.
So your medium and heavy artillery, plus your long-range artillery (which was added after Steve made that post, hence why it's not included in the text), will bombard enemy units even if your own front-line units are not attacking. In addition, you can have ground-support fighters, space fighters, and space ships bombarding the enemy ground units, either via supporting your own units or as separate bombardment attacks.

Note that in general you definitely want to use orbital bombardment as support through a forward observer. Collateral damage gets nasty, and quite quickly so on habitable planets. Really, the more I think about it the more I am forced to conclude that the world's to hit modifier at minimum needs to apply to collateral damage as well, because otherwise highly defensible worlds are useless to the attacker anyway, so you might as well unload thousands of warhead strength and let it lapse into a Barren world because the collateral damage mechanics would result in losing out on whatever is on planet anyway, and such heavy general bombardment lowers the defensive bonuses so you save a fair bit of ground forces.
 

Offline Person012345

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2019, 07:15:25 AM »
Note that in general you definitely want to use orbital bombardment as support through a forward observer. Collateral damage gets nasty, and quite quickly so on habitable planets. Really, the more I think about it the more I am forced to conclude that the world's to hit modifier at minimum needs to apply to collateral damage as well, because otherwise highly defensible worlds are useless to the attacker anyway, so you might as well unload thousands of warhead strength and let it lapse into a Barren world because the collateral damage mechanics would result in losing out on whatever is on planet anyway, and such heavy general bombardment lowers the defensive bonuses so you save a fair bit of ground forces.
The planet will break before the guard does.

I don't really see a problem with this. It should probably be fairly difficult to fortify a planet to that degree against a persistant attacker, a lot of resources and monetary upkeep, but if you fortify a world that hard maybe there shouldn't be much left to claim in the aftermath. Of course what IS left to claim is a habitable planet. If you turn the thing into a glowing ball you lose that.
 
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Offline DEEPenergy

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2019, 11:00:52 AM »
Hoping to see some boarding combat? Maybe from the Shogunate  :) Keep up the good work
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2019, 05:59:56 PM »
Looks like Mars is taking the lead here in establishing colonies. And wow, Sirius II is going to be one hell of a Duranium source with that load.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2019, 07:42:09 PM »
Looks like Mars is taking the lead here in establishing colonies. And wow, Sirius II is going to be one hell of a Duranium source with that load.

Yep. Even though the other minerals are terrible, a (near)habitable planet with 60 million accessibility 1 duranium is quite a prize.

It's also interesting how the ground forces change makes sniping colonies much harder. Normally this sort of scenario would have the various nations each trying to claim their own jump point for defensibility purposes, but here Mars is grabbing colonies in two Sol adjacent systems. Pretty greedy, but maybe not overly so if they can use ground forces to reinforce their claims. At the very least they can make sure the colonies aren't helpless without splitting the Martian fleet up for guard duty.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 07:52:37 PM by Bremen »
 

Offline Zincat

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2019, 06:55:32 AM »
The ELInt module usage is very interesting to me. My only gripe is that I wonder how useful it would actually be in a single race game.

I mean, hostile AIs will likely just blast your ships to pieces anyway. So it seems something mostly useful for the rare situation where you have a friendly NPR. There is cloaking of course, but if the AI guards the jump points...

In a multi race start it seems very interesting though. Also, maybe the new diplomacy will actually change all this, so, fingers crossed :)
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2019, 07:59:48 AM »
The ELInt module usage is very interesting to me. My only gripe is that I wonder how useful it would actually be in a single race game.

I mean, hostile AIs will likely just blast your ships to pieces anyway. So it seems something mostly useful for the rare situation where you have a friendly NPR. There is cloaking of course, but if the AI guards the jump points...

In a multi race start it seems very interesting though. Also, maybe the new diplomacy will actually change all this, so, fingers crossed :)

The ELINT ships are being detected on passive thermal only by Mars and Earth using tracking stations. If Mars / Terra had less than six tracking stations, they wouldn't detect them. Also, if the Jovians had the first two levels of thermal reduction tech (4500 RP total), the ELINT ships would remain undetected (Mars has 9 tracking stations at 300 strength and Terra has 8 at 250). Finally, the ELINT modules stack, so you could try a larger ship with greater detection range. There is definitely scope for some sneaking around :)

BTW the ELINT ships are adding espionage points but the Jovians missed their first roll.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2019, 10:52:16 AM »
I'm not seeing the Survey report for Sirius II, but the Luyten 726-8-B I colony isn't useless either. Several million tons of Duranium, Vendarite and Sorium at .90 availability, and a couple of million tons of Mercassium at .50? That's useful, if you can keep it.

I think that the Sirius colony in particular is going to need a Custodes unit stationed there though, and soon. It's such an obvious target for a Duranium strapped polity to try and take, or another nation to try and deny to the Martians. It's a Jungle Rifts Valley planet though, so... rather hard to assault.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2019, 03:26:31 PM »
Or. . .  just land and start mining it themselves?  There are a lot of shared CMC sites in Sol system; if a non-hostile power started their own colony in Sirius would it be worth a war to not share the planet?  Mars would still get a million tons of Duranium without fighting.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2019, 06:12:42 PM »
Or. . .  just land and start mining it themselves?  There are a lot of shared CMC sites in Sol system; if a non-hostile power started their own colony in Sirius would it be worth a war to not share the planet?  Mars would still get a million tons of Duranium without fighting.

Mars would have to allow them to land, though (at least if they were willing to risk a war over it). And if their requirement for allowing a colony were something like "no ground forces allowed" (to prevent someone else from using it as an excuse to land their own ground forces), then anyone colonizing it would know they were basically just giving colonists and infrastructure to Mars in the case of war.

I think that the Sirius colony in particular is going to need a Custodes unit stationed there though, and soon. It's such an obvious target for a Duranium strapped polity to try and take, or another nation to try and deny to the Martians. It's a Jungle Rifts Valley planet though, so... rather hard to assault.

This got me thinking, how would a Custodes unit compare to the more common warship units available.

First, some assumptions; a Custodes is described as having 6 particle beams and 6 twin gauss turrets. We don't get the actual stats, but I assume they're comparable to matching weapons on Martian warships, so we get:

6 STO Particle Cannons:
Tiberius Weapon Systems TW6-240 Particle Beam   Range 240,000km     TS: 5,335 km/s    Power 15-4    ROF 20
Titus-Felix TF-256 Beam Fire Control     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5,000 km/s
HP: 30? (Ceramic Composite armor tech)
Armor: 10-30? (ditto, and I'm guessing 30)

6 Twin Gauss Turrets:
Twin R3 Gauss Cannon Turret (1x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5 
Titus-Felix TF-20 Point Defence Fire Control (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20,000 km/s
HP: 30?
Armor: 10-30?

Assuming 30 armor, a 9 damage hit is necessary to ensure a kill (ouch), 4 damage would have a 44% chance of a kill, and 1 damage would have a ~5% chance of a kill.  The terrain gives a fortification/accuracy multiplier of 12 (ie 1 in 12 attacks will miss) and the STO weapons will likely have a fortification of either 3 (self fortified) or 6 (with engineers/construction factory assistance). Assuming full fortification (worst case scenario) that gives the following hits per kill (on average):

9+ damage: 72 hits
4 damage: 162 hits
2 damage: 365 hits
1 damage: 1,440 hits

Just making a Fermi estimate, I'd say that puts each individual gun as roughly two thirds tougher than a Martian Battlecruiser, if not higher (and proportionately better against smaller and very large hits). The firepower is a lot lower, of course (or at least it would be if the Martian battlecruisers had particle beams), but still, it shows how tough STO can be on a high fortification multiplier planet.

IIRC, the rules for firing on revealed STO units are considerably different from a general bombardment of ground forces, so it at least avoids the need for FFD to make a proper effort.

Scenario 1: Saturation missile bombardment
The Jovian federation uses WH 9 missiles. With a sufficient force of battlecruisers and patrol craft, they could overwhelm the point defense and land unanswered hits. They'd still need an average of 432 missile hits to destroy the 12 guns of a Custodes unit, which would make a mess of the planet, and the point defenses would be shooting down an average of nearly 34 missiles per salvo. Not completely impossible, but extremely expensive and likely to end up basically reducing the planet to a radioactive wasteland. Also, they'd need to provoke the STO weapons into revealing themselves first.

Scenario 2: Long Range Beam engagement
At current tech, none of the other nations appear to have weapons that can outrange the particle cannons, making bombarding them from out of range impossible.
However, if one nation did develop the tech, likely a large high powered laser, then it would come down to weapons failure and MSP costs. A theoretical next gen bombardment weapon might look like this:

20cm Far Ultraviolet Laser: Damage 10 (2 at 241,000) Max range 500,000 km
Max fire control range: 320,000 km

Bombarding from 241,000 km, they'd need approximately 365 hits per gun, and have an accuracy of ~33%. This means 1,104 shots per gun, or roughly 22 failures, each costing 158 MSQ, or 3,475 MSP per gun (once the particle beams were down the fleet could move closer). This would create a lot of dust but not radiation, and would still require the attackers to provoke the STO weapons into firing first. By far the most practical solution, but it requires a tech advantage.

Scenario 3: Short range bombardment (gun duel)
The 6 particle cannons put out 36 damage every 20 seconds. Range doesn't matter, so it would make the most sense to engage them relatively close, either point blank or just outside the gauss range of 30,000 km.

The most suited to this sort of short range bombardment would be the Shogunate, with their mass driver heavy ships. Their shields also mean they could minimize incoming damage by moving ships in and out of range. Each strike cruiser is capable of 32 shots of 1-4 damage depending on range every 15 seconds.

In theory a single strike cruiser could take out all the guns without damage by dancing in and out of range as its shields recharged, but this would take forever and be a micromanagement nightmare. In practical terms, the 8 strike cruisers of the Shogunate navy, or even perhaps half of them, could probably handle the defenses reasonably well with a similar technique. It would still create levels of dust similar to the long range laser bombardment, and require a lot of micromanagement as well as probably resulting in some armor damage to the strike cruisers, but it would work.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 06:16:31 PM by Bremen »
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2019, 06:25:47 PM »
With those stats, armoured drop-ships to land troops under fire are seeming a lot more enticing.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2019, 09:58:27 PM »
With those stats, armoured drop-ships to land troops under fire are seeming a lot more enticing.

I dunno, I was actually kind of disappointed when I realized just how easily shielded warships or ones with a small range advantage could bombard down defenses (MSP are cheap). Though it would admittedly still cause lots of dust and collateral damage, it made it pretty clear to me that ground troops alone will barely slow down an enemy that doesn't care about glassing the planet.
 

Offline Tanj

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #103 on: June 25, 2019, 07:29:43 AM »

...I realized just how easily shielded warships or ones with a small range advantage could bombard down defenses (MSP are cheap).

I wonder if there is any reason shields wouldn't work as a ground defense mechanic? Sort of like Star Wars, where shields make planetary bombardments more difficult and thus force ground engagements aka Hoth. Only on a unit level, rather than something that covers an entire planet, and of sufficient cost/tech level so as not to make it a cheap defense. I imagine a large, expensive 'module' that you could give certain units, but at the cost that its bulk makes them less maneuverable or something...
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Comments Thread
« Reply #104 on: June 25, 2019, 08:01:00 AM »
With those stats, armoured drop-ships to land troops under fire are seeming a lot more enticing.

I dunno, I was actually kind of disappointed when I realized just how easily shielded warships or ones with a small range advantage could bombard down defenses (MSP are cheap). Though it would admittedly still cause lots of dust and collateral damage, it made it pretty clear to me that ground troops alone will barely slow down an enemy that doesn't care about glassing the planet.

One thing to bear in mind is that ground-based fire controls have a 25% range advantage, so you need have a decent tech advantage. By the time the attacker has 20cm far ultraviolet lasers, the defenders will have much better weapons than the current particle beams.