Author Topic: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"  (Read 2515 times)

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Offline Paul M (OP)

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"Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« on: August 20, 2009, 05:30:54 AM »
This is a review of this book by James P. Hogan.  Let me star off by saying I bought the book, I read the book and I gave it to a friend.  I had to restrain myself from throwing it against the wall every few pages as the drivel in it is that offensive.

I am a physicist, I am one of these people who according to the book goes about suppressing the real truth of the universe for well I'm not sure what reason exactly.  To prop up the establishment what ever that may be?  To put things mildly the premise of the book is insulting on a proffesional level.

The book is divided into chapters dealing with a variety of things, the first several such deal with physics so I am quallified to judge the validity of the arguements.  I had an incredibly difficult time reading this...it was worse by far then correcting student tests, or reading evaluations of my performance as a teacher.

He starts off with astronomy and that Russian nutjob who thinks that you need to interpret the ancient babylonian sagas literally.  Venus and earth apparently suffered a close pass and mana from heaven was petroleum products from venus.  Two words: Rochet's Limit.  He goes on to further propose re-organizations of the solar system where earth and venus started out elsewhere.  Needless to say no one even considers the energy requirements for whole scale re-arrangements of the solar system and instead they focus on what seems to be an error in Dr. Sagan's back of the envelope calculations disproving this whole mess.  As a theorist once told us "You have to give some one a factor of 2, pi or even 2 pi."  Largely because such things are easy to miss in equations.

He then moves on to cosmology and relativity.  Apparently all the careful experiement done with orbiting atomic clocks and the other proofs of relativity are all erronous.  My mind just boggles at the drivel and I even went so far as to pull out "Caldrons in the Cosmos" to check what the Astrophysicists had to say.  

We next meet intellegent design.  Well I suspect an evolutionary biologist would turn over in his grave and pull his hair out reading these arguements but I'm not qualified to comment specificially.  Here is where I realized the great danger of the book, it is well written and has persuavely documented arguements (as in there are huge lists of references in the back of the book).  But BS is by its nature BS regardless of the pedigree of the bull producing it.

Then next we find out HIV isn't a virus.  oh...right so all the researchers on the topic and the huge room full of HIV virus being used for research I saw in a documentary one time mean what?

Then DDT is presented as being the victem of government beurocratic unfair regulation.  This might or might not be true as the legal basis of the ban seems a bit odd, but then again I'm not a lawyer.

Of course what quack science book would not have a section on Climate change.  The trouble is here again the excellent writing is a true negative.  Computer models are subject to GIGO anyone who works with them knows that.  The more complex the model the more this is the case.  However, no one discounts completely the model predictions.  It is also hard to imagine people who do this would not be aware of sunspot data and take it into account.  It's painful to read this.

Asbestos comes up.  This one would have you believe the twin towers would be still standing if they had used asbestoes in them.  There are two kinds of asbestos and yes one is not anywhere near as toxic as the other but...

There are other sections but this covers what I recall.  Reading the book was personally painful and very hard not because of poor writing but just because its difficult to read garbage and know, especially since the arguments in areas I have no competency seem quite compelling, that people who don't have my background might actually believe this in the area where I know it is wrong.

As a last comment it is also painful to read this book because part of why people become scientists is to find out why, how, and how come?  We are human and generally speaking no more willing to change our beliefs then the next person.  But at the end of the day it is hard to argue with the universe and even if one generation does so successfully the next probably won't.  If you can borrow this book from a library I would recommend reading it just to get a feeling for the issue of quack sience there is out there.  I can't say definitively all statements in the book are false I can say that all the sections dealing with physics are in error and often serious and fundamental errors.  I will make the assumption that if James P. Hogan gets them wrong there is a high chance the rest of the book is also erronous in its claims.  The first few chapters are available in the Baen site for free.
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 07:00:14 PM »
Thanks for the heads up.  I'm a astrophysicist by training, but I've not been involved in the scientific community for a some time.  I have to admit the few areas you mentioned that I know something about got my blood boiling.  I agree that people's beleif's don't tend to change, but most rational being are capable of modifying their beliefs when they are presented with logical arguments backed up with good data.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that you were bang on with your comment about this book being dangerous because it is well presented BS and it will sway some people.
Welchbloke
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 07:11:29 PM »
Is this the same James Hogan who is a science fiction author?

Offline welchbloke

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 08:15:13 PM »
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
Is this the same James Hogan who is a science fiction author?
According to Amazon it is the same person and one of the reviews on the site does the same deconstruction job on the Intelligent Design section as Paul M has done to the physics section.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 09:31:12 PM by welchbloke »
Welchbloke
 

Offline SteveAlt

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 08:39:56 PM »
I read a novel a while ago by James P Hogan called Cradle of Saturn. I don't remember the exact details but what has stuck with me is that the book was reasonably entertaining and that it was based on the scientific ideas proposed by Immanuel Velikovsky, which I think is who Paul was referring to in his review. The reviews on Amazon range fairly equally from 1-5, which suggests he is received in very different ways by different people. As long as you can accept some of the more radical ideas as the basis for the novel (and I can't complain as I do that for Aurora :)), it was decent science-fiction. Trying to suggest they are science fact in a non-fiction book would be a lot harder to take.

Here is a link to the book

http://www.amazon.com/Cradle-Saturn-Jam ... 0671578669

Steve
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 08:54:45 PM »
He wrote the "Gentle Giants of Ganymede" if I recall. Or at least that's the book my brain is associating to the name. Fairly entertaining book, but nothing I'd call "fact".

Offline Paul M (OP)

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 02:45:02 AM »
Yes it is Velikovsky and Mr. Hogan is a true believer in his speculation. I've read a grad students web page one time which goes on to show how bad Dr. Velikovsky's research in his own field is.  Basically he got even his area of expertise wrong.  But as the basis for a SF book it is fine though.  I allow a SF author to define the universe as they wish I just hold them to it, one reason I've stopped reading Webber as Herringswine was too much to take, although in general I don't like David Drake I can recommend his Lt. Leary books.

Dr. Veliskovsky proposed what I would call a failed hypothesis.  Qualitatively one can argue a great many things in science but ultimately you have to do the math.  The math even as done by Dr. Sagan "on the back of an envelope" clearly demonstrates that the hypothesis fails.  The energy requirements alone to re-arrange the solar system are immense and you would need a triggering event.  About the only thing Dr. Veliskovsky proposed that has basis in reality is the concept of catastrophic events playing a role in the development of the solar system.  But as an astronomer said, he (Velikovsky) predicted so many things that by pure coincidence some may be true.  Rochet's Limit (I hope I have the name right) is the seperation possible before tidal stresses would rip appart the less massive body, it gives the minimum possible orbital distance of a moon and so if the Earth and Venus had a near pass the result would be a fairly massive meotor bombardment as Venus would have come appart.  So no 100-200 km near passes...and the frictional forces involved in a brush of two atmsopheres?  My mind just goes blank.  Orbital velocity exceeds gas thermal velocity if I am not mistaken so it would almost certainly result in a shock front developing creating some sort of wave that would have torn holes in both atmospheres as a first order wild assed guess.  If I was to speculate I would say that if Venus had done a near pass we would have solid evidence of this.

In this book we aren't discussing if aliens visited the earth and built the pyramids or alien abductions but things which affect people in their daily lives and how they may view important events on going now (climat change, AIDS, eductation, etc).  The real problem is that the arguements are well written, entertaining, and backed up by references and at least those I checked seem legitimate.  I'll be frank if it had not started off with stuff I know to be rubbish I have to admit that a good number of the arguments would have swayed me and I frankly admit that the one on DDT isn't anything I can legitimately raise a flag over since I can't see anything in it that is in error.  Also part of the problem is that as should come as no surprise you will find scientists who dissagree with each other, Dr. Einstien and his disbelief in quantum mechanics as a classic example.  Heck, I am the lone wolf crying in the wilderness from time to time on some subjects.  But because a minority don't agree doesn't mean the others are involved in some conspiracy to supress the truth for profit or whatever deep dark goals we are supposed to be having.

On many levels this book offends me, but it also scares me.  The book exhibits a degree of paranoia that strikes me as decidedly unhealthy.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 07:35:38 AM »
Yes, that is the same James P Hogan that wrote the "Giants" series of books.  He's anything but a scientist.  By training and early carreer he's specialist in aviation avionics and electrical engineering.  

This book was originally published something like 3-4 years ago.  Recently met him at a con and the this book came up in conversation one night.  Suffice it to say that he likes to stir things up just to see what floats to the top.  

All that being said...  I can't comment on the validity of the science referenced since I don't have the any of the relvent background.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 08:38:46 PM »
Maaaaaaany years ago in my romantic youth I read "Thrice Upon a Time" by Hogan, which is an alternate worlds "endangered love" story.  This made him one of my favorite authors for quite a while - I read all of the "Gentle Giants" books, for example.  One thing that pervades his writing is a disdain for the scientific establishment and establishment scientists.  His protagonists tend to be brilliant young mavericks fighting close-minded, pompous old farts who are nothing more than glorified beaurocrats.  As Paul points out (not in these words), it seems that he just doesn't have an appreciation of the correspondence principle, which is the observation that any new model of the universe which purports to describe it has got to successfully predict the answers to the experiments that the current models get right.  For example, Einstein gravity had to get almost exactly the same answer as Newtonian gravity in regimes where we had a lot of experimental data that was correctly explained by Newton.  This is stupendously hard to do - in fact the current revival of string theory (which has been going for twenty-five years now) was initiated by a calculation of Green and Schwartz that showed the numbers actually did work out (as Paul put it).  I think a lot of the general public's misconceptions about science (intelligent design springs to mind here) can be traced to a similar lack of appreciation of the correspondence principle.

At some point I (being one of those establishment scientists) got tired of being dismissed as someone who was too lazy to think for myself and I stopped reading him.

John

PS - I usually name my grav survey classes Lorentz or Einstein.  On a lark they're the Witten class in my 4.2x game.
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 08:41:38 PM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
PS - I usually name my grav survey classes Lorentz or Einstein.  On a lark they're the Witten class in my 4.2x game.
Does the Lorenz get shorter as it accelerates?  :D
Welchbloke
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 08:54:42 PM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Quote from: "sloanjh"
PS - I usually name my grav survey classes Lorentz or Einstein.  On a lark they're the Witten class in my 4.2x game.
Does the Lorenz get shorter as it accelerates?  :D
ROFL
 

Offline ShadoCat

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 01:15:51 AM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Quote from: "sloanjh"
PS - I usually name my grav survey classes Lorentz or Einstein.  On a lark they're the Witten class in my 4.2x game.
Does the Lorenz get shorter as it accelerates?  :D

No but it is more than meets the eye.

Offline Erik L

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2009, 04:49:22 PM »
Quote from: "ShadoCat"
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Quote from: "sloanjh"
PS - I usually name my grav survey classes Lorentz or Einstein.  On a lark they're the Witten class in my 4.2x game.
Does the Lorenz get shorter as it accelerates?  :D

No but it is more than meets the eye.

So it's a Transformer?

Offline ShadoCat

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2009, 11:23:34 PM »
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
So it's a Transformer?

The Lorenz is related.

Offline Erik L

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Re: "Kicking the Sacred Cow"
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 08:54:07 AM »
I've had a tendency to name my grav survey ships Kepler or Galileo.