Author Topic: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.  (Read 13955 times)

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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2011, 10:29:51 AM »
Wouldn't designing in modular ships (as opposed to the sorta kludgy method being used) entirely go against the spirit of retooling? 

I mean you have a clear advantage in several ways over a player who builds a single ship in retooling terms. 

Though this thread is very amusing and interesting.   A unique-NPR (ala swarm or precursor) who used the tractor-module method would be pretty cool.

//

I would think starbases would be best implemented in a similar scheme as orbital habitats.  I imagine theres been a lot of discussion about starbases tho, heh.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 10:39:51 AM by TheDeadlyShoe »
 

Offline Girlinhat

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2011, 11:23:38 AM »
Modular ships still require refitting, just not the whole ship at once.  Instead of refitting an entire ship to get some new lasers, and dealing with the engines and such along with it, you can instead just refit the laser module.  It'll need to be refit eventually, but it'll be easier to refit when you finally need to.
 

Offline jseah

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2011, 07:09:27 PM »
I mean you have a clear advantage in several ways over a player who builds a single ship in retooling terms. 
You pay in other ways though. 

Jump squadron size is one. 

Armouring / shielding your engines doesn't work for your lasers/sensors. 
 

Offline blue emu (OP)

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2011, 07:32:56 PM »
Also, the need to allocate tonnage to Tractor Beams. A four-module ship requires three Tractor Beams. That's not cheap.
 

Offline Girlinhat

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2011, 01:13:59 AM »
It also hurts your overall ship size in early game.  If you're making 100HS modules, then 1/10th of that is being tossed into tractors.  When it gets later game and ships get bigger, then 10HS used out of 500HS isn't such a big deal.

I'm currently attempting this, and setting my module-per-ship count to my jump limit.  If my engine ship has a jump limit of 4, then it will equip 3 modules, and progressively rise as my jump tech rises.
 

Offline blue emu (OP)

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2011, 07:50:34 AM »
My current home game is almost the ideal test-bed for modular design.

I started a Conventional-start game in 1948... simulating a "Roswell incident" start... and we are now about eleven years into the game. Obviously, my tech is still very primative (Nuclear Pulse, first generation missiles, etc), and already I've encountered a space-faring NPR only two jumps from Earth. I'll need a fleet immediately, to guard the Sol system, and my low tech and small shipyards make a modular design philosophy very attractive.

One point worth mentioning: at low tech, the modular strategy offers at least one advantage... my Jump Drives can be quite compact. At Jump Efficiency 3, a 15,000-ton ship would need a 100-HS jump engine, costing 25,000 RP. A ship composed of three tractor-linked 5,000-ton modules would need a 34-HS jump engine costing 2,890 RP, and two 10-HS Tractor Beams which I was going to research anyway (for Tugs)... a saving of 46 HS (2300 tons) which can be used for weapons, armor and magazine stowage instead.

The only other requirement is Squadron Size 3, which is only 2000 RP... and the smaller jump engine saves me 22,110 RP (2,890 instead of 25,000) in addition to the extra 2,300 tons of displacement.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 07:54:30 AM by blue emu »
 

Offline Din182

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2011, 07:55:56 AM »
I thought squadron size 3 was a base tech needed for jump drives. So there isn't any difference for research points except designing the drive.
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Offline blue emu (OP)

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2011, 01:08:07 PM »
Correct... you need Squadron Size 3 in order to design a Jump Drive at all.

So there's no down-side to taking the modular approach early in the game... it saves you many thousands of research points on designing the drive, and saves years of shipyard expansions. Plus, the modules can be refitted more quickly and cheaply than a whole ship. New engines? Just refit the drive module. Faster missile launchers? Just refit the weapons module. Improved jump techs? Just refit the jump module.

Another point is that you need only bring along the modules required by the mission. Going to fight an enemy within your own jump-gate network? Leave the jump drive module home, and take along a second weapon section instead, or a magazine module.
 

Offline Girlinhat

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2011, 08:54:08 PM »
Also of note: If you use a ship with two ships with tractor beams and attach them to one ship, then the one ship doesn't lose as much speed.  IE - My ship has 6k km/s speed.  It's HS 100 and the mission modules are HS 100.  I was transporting 8 mission modules to a new Mars hangar PDC, so I linked them all to the single drive section.  The drive section moved at 3k km/s despite having 9x the weight.  It appears that speed calculations are only done for what the ship is directly attached to.  Multi-attached ships only count the first link made.  You could take a 10kt cruiser, attach a 1t probe, and then attach 50 10kt cruisers on, but the probe is the "active link" and will only register as a 10,001 ton vessel for purposes of engines, and get high speed despite high total size.

I support module ships and think that tractor beams should be kept as they are, but I think that issues like engines being fixed would make it much less exploit-y
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2011, 04:36:10 AM »
This has been known as an exploit for quite some time now, and Steve wanted to fix it by limiting Tractors to one/Ship,  but appearently he hasn't done so yet.
He's probably more busy with NA, which I support fully.
 

Offline Antagonist

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2011, 05:41:02 AM »
I feel we should keep modular ship designs and keep tractoring as it is.

The speed and hyperspace calculations obviously need to be fixed, that's a bug, as well as maybe add a signature penalty to tractor ships.  Two 2000 ton ships might be difficult to spot, but if you put them within throwing distance of each other they become a much larger sensor blip ( sqrt(2000+2000) perhaps?) as well as an EM signature for an online tractor.  Both of those fixes will help with the unbalanced parts of modular tractoring, but leave it viable for other uses such as tractorable ammo, fuel and AMM modules, even if chained.

I would ALSO like to see an improvement in the upgradability of ships in the form of modules.  If I have a Quad turret laser equiped ship and I want to upgrade to a Quad turret meson equiped ship and the cost comparison is not within 10% I think it was, then this upgrade becomes far more expensive than it should be.  Same with upgrading engines.  I propose one of two things... Either the ship upgrade needs to recognise part similarity to a certain detail (Quad turret 10cm laser with a better Quad turret 10cm laser is similiar, but a 20cm laser would be less similiar) and take into account the replacing and the replaced module tonnages when upgrading(giving back the replaced part), or allow us to explicitly design modules.

Any 500ton module can be replaced by any other 500ton or smaller module with a minimum of a refit, giving back the replaced module.  If you design a module, it will take everything in that module and add 10% excess (reducable with research) and have that be the module tonnage.  With this system you can replace mission components of ships as needed resulting in higher flexibility and the ability to far better upgrade your vessels as tech advances.  This last suggestion is one I saw before on the forums somewhere, not sure where, so can't take credit for it.

A module ship will be less tonnage since it doesn't need tractor(depends on module size tho) and be protected with shields, need less armor.  The tractor ship will be less protected, need excess modules like a tractor and possibly a hangar, will have an EM signature and need a lot more micro-management, but will be able to actually discard modules, either empty magazines or leaving a jump tender or weapons at a jump point.  So both will have advantages, legitimizing modularity if that is your gameplay style.  A dedicated non-modular ship of course will have advantages in tonnage and cost, if losing out on flexibility.
 

Offline Girlinhat

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2011, 08:45:39 AM »
srt(2,000+2,000)=63.24  I think that formula would be rather lopsided...

There's definitely an argument for modular ships, although if it were going to be a new game dynamic then it should act as such.  A "clamp" would be needed to affix the module, and the hosting ship would need clamps for each module.  Being that they're mounted on the outside of the hull, they should take minimal tonnage and suffer no breakdowns.  A core ship might have 4 clamps.  You could then design a module as a special type of ship, requiring no engines but needing a clamp, perhaps gaining some boost to maintenance life or crew requirements, maybe they only work when clamped to a core ship.  These modules would be designed like a ship, with armor levels, weapons, magazines, sensors, all of that, except they would function as part of the ship itself, so things like fuel and ammo would be shared amongst modules and core, and module weapons could be slaved to core firecons.  Ideally these would not show up in sensors, marking only one ship of equivalent tonnage.  Incoming fire would have a chance to hit different modules or core depending on the relative sizes.  Detached modules (jettisoned fuel or mags) would register more as wrecks or lifepods, items to be scooped up or re-attached, but with no default orders to fire on stray modules.  A ship with missile modules could go to any colony or task group and perform the "refit modules" command to quickly re-attach any missing modules that might be available, similar to the way ordinance is applied this would be done in the design screen and the order to refit would grab what was assigned to that class.

If it were done like that, then armor sections could prove extremely valuable, if your 5k ton cruiser was mounting a 10k ton armor covering and a 5k ton weapon rack, then half of incoming fire would get soaked by armor, though the first internal hit would strike the clamp and destroy the module entirely, but then your carrier could be hauling a dozen spare armor covers to make "repairs" easier by exchanging damaged sections for fresh ones.  Similarly, magazines could be reloaded on carriers and ships could grab a fresh mag to run back into the fray with full ammo.

This would mainly require 1: the linking module, 2: sharing fire control, power production, fuel, etc across sections that may or may not be there - probably done easiest by simulating damaged sections.  If a module is missing, then it counts all those parts as "damaged" in terms of productivity.  IE - you're flying along and a missile blows up your module.  You had a core with a sensor and engine, a module with a laser, and a module with a reactor.  The missile destroys your reactor module.  The ship still remembers that it should have a reactor as this is saved as design data, so it marks that as missing/destroyed and adjusts power levels accordingly.

Of course this is mainly late-night ranting, but many of the ideas sound simple enough.  Just that Aurora isn't quite built for truly modular ships and it'd take a small overhaul of ship design and tracking to implement them.
 

Offline Elouda

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2011, 09:38:51 AM »
That is one approach to take; namely that of 'external' modules clamped onto the ship.

The other alternative is something I brought up a while back, which is the concept of 'internal' modules. A real world example is the US Navy's Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) projects, which are able to change payload depending on mission type. Here the design would have a '1000t module bay' component added, with a size of say 1200t. This bay could then take any modules designed by the user which were that size. The modules would be designed as ships, with a special component added to flag them as such.

Not sure how armour would play into this, but it could either act as an 'internal htk' split between all components in the module, or just be restricted to 1.

Tech could improve module changing speed, wasted space, and total mass of ship that could be modularised. A high-tech ~5000t multi-mission destroyer might be nothing more than 1000t of core components like fuel storage, living quarters and the external armour, and then have space for 3 1000t modules and 2 500t modules, which could range from weapons packages, engines, support modules, etc, etc.

Modules would be built by planetary industry and not exist as 'ships', rather more like pre-fab PDCs. They could be shipped as cargo and fitted at locations with appropriate maintenance facilities. Theoretically a fleet support vessel with maintenance modules and cargo space could do it too....
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 09:44:36 AM by Elouda »
 

Offline Antagonist

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2011, 09:55:51 AM »
Apologies, I meant sqrt(2000^2+2000^2) = 2828 tons, aka pythagoras formula randomly picked.  On one hand it is two ships flying close together which should be easier to detect, but then again that thought can be applied to fleets and right now total fleet tonnage does not affect stealth.

The internal module suggestion is closest to what I was thinking, especially since it solves the issue of armor.  There might be limitations to what you can add to a module however (should it be allowed to add an engine module?) but it won't be too limiting.  Additionally perhaps specialized clamps for turrets, giving say a 55ton turret clamp that can have any 50 ton turret clamped to it at a less than normal clamp overhead.  This should make turret upgrades easier.

As for external modules... they sound identical to what I would consider tractoring to look like, only much closer.  (Not sure if ingame tractoring is star trek style energy beam or just simple attach a long wire and pull?)  Such clamps might act exactly like tractor, just take less space and allow some transfer of power and crew, but act as a seperate ship in terms of combat damage, as well as requiring a colony to switch around.  Not too big a fan of this, but if implemented I can imagine this would be how freighters work.  Small incredibly powerful engine ships connected to large cargo bays it pulls around.
 

Offline Girlinhat

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Re: Modular Ship Design... a crazy idea that just might work.
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2011, 04:31:39 PM »
I would imagine the clamps I described to work quickly at colony or hangar, where external robots can line things up just perfect, but it'd be possible in open space to carefully maneuver and bump against a clamp.  I mean if we can dock a shuttle to a station in orbit NOW I think it'd be very easy in a universe where inertia doesn't matter.