Author Topic: Prototype Modules  (Read 3212 times)

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Offline Cheet4h (OP)

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Prototype Modules
« on: May 25, 2014, 04:24:33 PM »
Heyho,

Often when designing ships, I run into a recurring issue: Many modules are dependent on the ship's stats, like beam fire controls, which have to be designed to match the speed of the ship. Sadly, you only know the final speed once you designed most of it, which means when you're close to finish designing a ship, you have to interrupt the design process, start a new research and continue the game, returning to the drawboard a couple ingame months later. This isn't just the case with BFCs, but can also happen with engines, if a ship is ultimately slower than needed. The most cost efficient choice would be to design a ship with a couple big, high powered engines, but since you can't really know before designing how many EP you actually need, researching interrupts the design process here, too. The other option would be to design a couple of different modules before the design even begins, potentially wasting RP.

My proposal would be to add prototype modules.

These modules would be available in the design process as soon as a research project is created in the module designer. They would cost more BP than the regular module and take more maintenance supplies and/or have a higher failure rate to balance the availability without researching and simulate the experimental status of the module. To prevent cluttering in the designer after a research is completed, they could automatically be set as obsolete.

This would enable the designers to not only prototype a design with it final values, excluding the maintenance and BP stats, but you could also build prototype ships to try configurations without actually committing to a year-long research project.

Thoughts?
 

Offline NihilRex

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 07:55:53 PM »
I am fine with it, up until the point where you mention buildling the ships with the prototype modules.

This is a major balance breaking point.  I often have MUCH more industrial capacity than research capacity, and this would practically remove the need to do component research for me.
 

Offline PSI

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 08:16:43 PM »
I am fine with it, up until the point where you mention buildling the ships with the prototype modules.

This is a major balance breaking point.  I often have MUCH more industrial capacity than research capacity, and this would practically remove the need to do component research for me.
I agree. Ships with prototype modules should not be able to be built at a shipyard.
 

Offline Gwyn ap Nud

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 09:00:32 PM »
Simply having a separate Ship Design . exe or even something online with the techs and modules in it would solve this too, as you'd be able to design the ship out-of-game first and know it's stats. 
 

Offline TallTroll

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 11:02:16 PM »
It's a bit of a hack, but try designing ships with known masses, and multiples of that base mass and a fleet speed. I try to design around 5000 ton increments, for instance. It's hard to stick to in the early game, but then early game stuff tends to be what you've got, not what you want anyway. Typically, I have a 2500 ton class (Corvettes, typically just weapon platforms, designed to add firepower to FF squadrons), a 5000 ton class (Frigates (FF), much the same firepower as a Corvette, but with improved fuel capacity, the sensors the squadron needs, some armour, maybe some spare crew berths to pick up survivors), a 10,000 ton class (Destroyer (DD), first specialised class. Some design will be anti-missile / fighter / FAC, some anti-ship, maybe a few with honking great sensors and not much else, maybe a very small carrier design even. A DDCV isn't going to be part of your expeditionary fleets, but if you only give them Corvette engines, they make great defensive units over fixed points like colonies or JPs), and so on.

Then you only need to design an engine "tuned" to a 5k ton ship, and pile them on as appropriate for a consistent fleet speed across your entire force. You need a few smaller ones for Corvettes (I often have dedicated PD Corvettes have a slightly higher max speed so they can reorient in a fleet moving at max), fighters and FACs as appropriate for their missions (and that will change a lot according to current circumstances)
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 08:26:27 AM »
Often when designing ships, I run into a recurring issue: Many modules are dependent on the ship's stats, like beam fire controls, which have to be designed to match the speed of the ship. Sadly, you only know the final speed once you designed most of it, which means when you're close to finish designing a ship, you have to interrupt the design process, start a new research and continue the game, returning to the drawboard a couple ingame months later. This isn't just the case with BFCs, but can also happen with engines, if a ship is ultimately slower than needed. The most cost efficient choice would be to design a ship with a couple big, high powered engines, but since you can't really know before designing how many EP you actually need, researching interrupts the design process here, too. The other option would be to design a couple of different modules before the design even begins, potentially wasting RP.

IMHO this is a cool feature not a problem.

For me it adds alot of immersion and tough decisions having to decide if I want to postpone a design some months due to better balanced component X or not. You can always fine tune the design some more if you just wait a liiiiiitle bit and spend a litle bit more... just like in reality if you are trying to assemble something made up of thousands of different parts.

And the more known components you re-use from previous designs the more certain you will be of the performance and ability to make the ship work to desired speccs quicker.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 12:16:53 PM »
IMHO this is a cool feature not a problem.

For me it adds alot of immersion and tough decisions having to decide if I want to postpone a design some months due to better balanced component X or not. You can always fine tune the design some more if you just wait a liiiiiitle bit and spend a litle bit more... just like in reality if you are trying to assemble something made up of thousands of different parts.

And the more known components you re-use from previous designs the more certain you will be of the performance and ability to make the ship work to desired speccs quicker.
But in real life they can do the math and know the exact specs they need for each part.

Some designs can be pretty complicated, making doing the math by hand impractical.  Particularly missiles, since you have to design the engine separately from the rest of the missile.

I don't know how much rp I've wasted on engines I didn't realize were trash until I tried designing something with them, but its got to be a lot.
 

Online JacenHan

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 02:09:06 PM »
Right now, you can use SM mode and instant research the components with "prototype" in it's name, then actually research the final product.

I do agree that it would be nice to have this available without SM, but this is a workaround for now.
 

Offline Doren

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 08:02:54 AM »
Quote from: Barkhorn link=topic=7210. msg73579#msg73579 date=1401729413
But in real life they can do the math and know the exact specs they need for each part.

Some designs can be pretty complicated, making doing the math by hand impractical.   Particularly missiles, since you have to design the engine separately from the rest of the missile.

I don't know how much rp I've wasted on engines I didn't realize were trash until I tried designing something with them, but its got to be a lot.
Then do as you say? Like calculate them? No more wasted rp.
 

Offline NihilRex

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 01:28:03 PM »
But in real life they can do the math and know the exact specs they need for each part.

Some designs can be pretty complicated, making doing the math by hand impractical.  Particularly missiles, since you have to design the engine separately from the rest of the missile.

I don't know how much rp I've wasted on engines I didn't realize were trash until I tried designing something with them, but its got to be a lot.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,5855.msg60061.html#msg60061

I use the missile designer part of this.  Most the info for it can be found in the missile design box, which you place on the missile constants tab.  Allows you to do missile design pretty well.  Main complaint is that it doesnt display sensor range or handle ECM and Armor very well - I just add those values to the warhead value when doing a design, and check the missile design window to see what range a given size of sensor would allow.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2014, 07:27:10 AM »
But in real life they can do the math and know the exact specs they need for each part.

That still does not guarantee such a part is even possible to make.

Real life military manufacturers most of the time want as good specs as possible, and if it's not possible to make a part with existing technology they have to take a hard decision if they wait for the supplier to develop an even better part, or if they can compromise on performance somewhere else to for example fit a bigger engine that can give them the specs they are after.

Very similar to Aurora IMHO, especially if you allow for some roleplay factor and instant research with SM a replacement component if you did a obvious mistake

Particularly missiles, since you have to design the engine separately from the rest of the missile.

I don't know how much rp I've wasted on engines I didn't realize were trash until I tried designing something with them, but its got to be a lot.

That's only a problem the first game or few games you play and seems like you just need to get a little more familiar with how the system works. For example with missiles if you start with 50% of the missile size being engine with max power mod you usually end up fairly close to where you want to be, and missile engines are usually so small the RP need is negligible anyway.
 

Offline Whitecold

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2014, 01:32:42 AM »
I have an alternative suggestion for making the design process easier:
Simply make designed but not researched components show up in the class design screen, so they can be added. The design can't be finalized before all components are researched, but you would be able to see how it finally looks.
 

Offline spoongoon

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 03:04:50 AM »
You could have two instances of the game running.  Just copy the save file and instant what you need, then go back and research.
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2014, 09:57:23 AM »
In the same theme, I run a second game where I can just SM the necessary tech level and design the components and ships there first and get everything right - particularly useful when I'm sticking on a jump drive, for example.
 

Offline Theodidactus

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Re: Prototype Modules
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 10:41:42 AM »
I think you'll find as you get more adept that it rarely matters.

For example, here is something I say a lot:

"okay, for this next ship, it's going to be a 15,000 ton missile cruiser but it will have very large heavy turrets as well."

Here is something I've never said at any point except very early on in my aurora career

"okay this next ship is going to have 15 missile tubes and 3 heavy turrets and..."

becuase that inevitably leads to

"oh...this ship is going to be 15,450 tons instead of 15,000"


Start by thinking about the mass and speed of your ships (that's what the navy does) and every other component is designed around that.
My Theodidactus, now I see that you are excessively simple of mind and more gullible than most. The Crystal Sphere you seek cannot be found in nature, look about you...wander the whole cosmos, and you will find nothing but the clear sweet breezes of the great ethereal ocean enclosed not by any bound