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Offline coco146 (OP)

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Military Ship Design
« on: September 18, 2012, 06:07:13 AM »
Is there any kind of central resource/article on designing millitary vessels?

If not can I ask for some pointers on missiles, sensors, weapons, armour etc anything else that is important?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 06:09:06 AM by coco146 »
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 07:02:21 AM »
Is there any kind of central resource/article on designing millitary vessels?

If not can I ask for some pointers on missiles, sensors, weapons, armour etc anything else that is important?
I am not aware of any one such article or guide, but you certainly might find the Bureau of Ship Design useful.

Some of my pointers:

  • -Keep all your main combat ships the same size (tonnage). This is important because of the mechanics of jump-engines, which can guide a given number of ships up to a certain individual tonnage each through a jump point. If one of your ships is smaller the standard tonnage you are wasting space. I personally find main combatants work nicely in the 3,000-7,500t range.
  • -Decide on a useful engines/weight ratio, so that your military ships have a uniform speed. If one ships is faster than another that is supposed to work in the same fleet, you are wasting the advantage of the faster ship. Personally I tend to use 25%-33% of ships tonnage for engines.
  • -Make sure your firecontrolls and active sensors have the same resolution. Otherwise you might spot something that you cant shot at, or not spot something that you could shoot at. Firecontroll ranges can be “upped” a bit compared to your missile ranges in order to counter possible ECM. Some consider this gamey though. I normally go for a resolution-125 band for sensors and main firecontrolls. Large ships get an additional secondary resolution-20 firecontroll for anti-FAC purposes.
  • -Theoretically you only need one active sensor for an entire fleet, and active sensors are quite expensive. So this is a major point where you can avoid too much redundancy. Still I would make sure that you have some backup. The way I go about this is to centre the fleet around command ships (jump-engine + sensor + fleet bridge + heavy armour). Other ships can then go without sensors or jump engines.
  • -Most people do not add enough armour. Maybe including myself. I go for 3-8 layers, depending on the importance and intended role of the ship.
 

Offline Havear

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 07:49:27 AM »
There's no real best design for military vessels. I'll try to sum up some stuff you might find handy.

Missiles are typically long-ranged but expensive to produce, whereas beams are comparatively point-blank but can keep firing as long as your power plants are intact. (And the beam itself of course.)

Sensors are typically trickier. They're expensive to produce and often very large, so it's often best to stick them on some sort of dedicated sensor craft. I personally place them on command ships like Theocrat that carry the fleet area sensors and jumpdrive for that squadron, occasionally also carrying extras like a flag bridge, extra maintenance or something else. These are usually resolution 100-120, and then redundant resolution 1 anti-missile sensors on the escorts.

Armor gives superior protection to shields ton-for-ton, but shields have the advantage of recharging instead of having the whole ship retreat to a 'yard or mobile repair ship (basically just a massive floating hangar, these things are really inefficient) to patch the holes. I've found it's usually best to mix the two, but overall this is probably the most debated part of ship design. Any shields below Epsilon really aren't worth it, and you'd be best served by extra armor. My preferred setup is a shield generator every 1kton, and a layer of armor roughly every 2ktons. (Mostly I just place armor on a design-by-design basis, but almost always my 5kton DDs have 2 layers, the 10kton CCs have 4, and the 20kton BBs have 6). Come to think of it, a lot of your armor choices will depend on range-of-engagement: if you're beam-armed, you'll probably want light shields and wide, deep armor, whereas for missile combat (which I attempt to engage in exclusively) I much prefer active defenses and not getting hit at all.

Make sure to not skimp on the engines. Anything short of 30% is slow, and usually I aim for 35% or 7 engines per 5ktons. Speed will let you control engagement range or retreat as well as providing nice penalties to hostile to-hit chances in combat.

This is more of a fleet-level tip than ship-level, but MIX YOUR FLEETS. Don't try to go for mammoth ships that incorporate everything into them, it just doesn't work. (Or rather, they become so inferior to a properly mixed fleet that it doesn't matter.) Jumpdrives in every ship is expensive and heavy so you should have dedicated jumpships. Don't expect passive defenses to do everything, if you want to survive you'd going to need some sort of active defense, preferably AMMs. Missile-armed parasites launching from carriers (I'm thinking mainly fighters, but FACs fit the bill) thanks to their small size can cause damage way beyond their tonnage.

Lastly, I suggest not skimping on passive sensors. Actives have a hard limit, passive sensors will let you pick up on hostile emissions from potentially much further, and without giving away your position to their passives.
 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 10:40:03 AM »
Ok thanks, what about PDC design?  Is it possible to use engineers to assemble a PDC on an uninhabited world?
 

Offline Konisforce

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 10:58:14 AM »
You'll need a few minerals for the finishing touches but yes, if you prefab a PDC and drop it on a world along with some engineering brigades they can assemble it.
Come take a look at Victoria Regina, an old-timey AAR
 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 11:01:16 AM »
And would doing so be advisable?
 

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2012, 11:05:46 AM »
And would doing so be advisable?

I'd do it only if said body is in range of a JP.

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2012, 11:10:13 AM »
What about at unmaned refuel/resupply stations? And what about designing them size,armour and armament for example?
 

Offline Zook

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 11:18:15 AM »
What works pretty well for me is:

Destroyer squadrons with
1 jump tender (jump drive, fuel, maintenance supplies, large active sensor, medium passives)
4 destroyers with ASM and AMM (medium + short range active)
1 destroyer with a flag bridge
2 fast destroyers with lasers (provide area defense and are useful vs. fighters and FACs)
3 frigates with AMM (short range active)
3 corvettes with gauss turrets - very popular with the crews, especially the crews of other ships

Carrier wings with
1 jump tender
3 small carriers (each with 12 missile-armed fighters plus 1 fighter with extra fuel and some reloads)
1 destroyer with a flag bridge
2 frigates
2 corvettes

Depending on what I'm fighting I can mix and match. Once in a while, when I've developed better missiles, I upgrade fire controls ans sensors on the destroyers and frigates, that way they stay useful for a long time, even though engines and other components are outdated.

Remember that ships with active actives are targeted first, so if you have dedicated sensor ships, you might want to experiment with escort orders.
 

Offline niflheimr

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 11:26:22 AM »
I have to add a couple of my observations as well.

1.  1 layer of armor for 2kt is NOT enough.  I prefer a minimum of 6 layers on anything above 4kt , with 8-10 layers on all command ships or 15kt+ ships.  Especially on medium sized ships you need a deeper armor to account for the number of rows- a 6-8KT destroyer can be easily mission killed with just two lucky laser shots - or 4 to 5 missile hits.

2.  Shields are good for long range - 20 shield strength can keep all your missiles ships intact against either leaks or massive PD missile swarms.  But what they are even better at is close range combat.  On an escort/rail/laser destroyer those 30 strength shields can be enough to shrug off the first volley and allow you to get into point blank range and eliminate the enemy before it reloads.

3.  Speed and engine tonnage.  I do keep my classes balanced - for example I use one engine per KT at ICF tech or above BUT I always add extra for my close range combatants and escorts.  If you use the same speed throughout the fleet you might not be able to maneuver the ships in your subformations. 

4.  I go with a different strategy for my sensor/command ships.  While heavy armored , they only have CIWS and a cloaking device .  Also I keep them below 8kt .  Coupled with the cloaking device and low-sig engines most of the time the enemy will engage my 9kt ( light cruiser) and above ships first.  I usually aim for 500+ m km for the main 120 res sensor , with a 150 m 20 res sensor and a 4-7m range against missiles . 

5.  Jump drives .  I usually have my fleet support vessels (tanker+jump drives + magazine ) as tugs .  Heavy armor , 100 tone bigger than any other ship and VERY heavily armored (up to 12 layers)

6.  Combat ships .  Never go with a single type of combat ships.  Missiles are nice but you can run out of ammo or find yourself against a swarm of fighters and lacs.  Beam ships will terminate anything point blank but they will die against a pure missile fleet or something faster than they are.  Here are two examples - one is a missile cruiser , the other a heavy escort.  Maintenance size is overengineered since I tend to park them on jump points for years at a time.

Code: [Select]
Achilles - Copy - Copy class Cruiser    12,000 tons     873 Crew     3092.8 BP      TCS 240  TH 337.44  EM 810
5858 km/s     Armour 8-46     Shields 27-360     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 23     PPV 95
Maint Life 8.33 Years     MSP 2094    AFR 88%    IFR 1.2%    1YR 54    5YR 807    Max Repair 156 MSP
Magazine 814    

Lockhead E6 HiT MCF Military Drive (9)    Power 156.25    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 37.5    Armour 0    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 62.5 billion km   (123 days at full power)
Northrop Grumman Epsilon R360/12 Shields (9)   Total Fuel Cost  108 Litres per day

Size 4 Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 25
S4 Assault Missile XO Rack (25)    Missile Size 4    Hangar Reload 30 minutes    MF Reload 5 hours
S16 Capital Missile XO Rack (10)    Missile Size 16    Hangar Reload 120 minutes    MF Reload 20 hours
S8 Heavy Missile EXR Rack (20)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 24000
Gravitic Long Range Scanner FC851-R120 (2)     Range 851.8m km    Resolution 120
GunBoat Control AI FC86-R20 (1)     Range 86.9m km    Resolution 20
S8 LHM 50k/495m/165min 25% (20)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 165m    Range: 495m km   WH: 4    Size: 8    TH: 83 / 50 / 25
S8 MHM 50k/225m/75min 25% (20)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 75m    Range: 225m km   WH: 4    Size: 8    TH: 83 / 50 / 25
S16 CT 28.3k /254.7m/150 min 14.1% (10)  Speed: 28,300 km/s   End: 150m    Range: 254.7m km   WH: 16    Size: 14.15    TH: 47 / 28 / 14
S4 LFAM2 41.7k-85m-34mi 50% (40)  Speed: 41,700 km/s   End: 34.1m    Range: 85.4m km   WH: 4    Size: 4    TH: 166 / 100 / 50
S4 SFAM2 58k-9m-3min 93% (20)  Speed: 58,000 km/s   End: 2.6m    Range: 9m km   WH: 4    Size: 4    TH: 309 / 185 / 92

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 30

Code: [Select]
Candice - Copy class Light Cruiser    10,000 tons     985 Crew     4212 BP      TCS 200  TH 300  EM 1350
6250 km/s     Armour 9-41     Shields 45-360     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 21     PPV 62.9
Maint Life 6.1 Years     MSP 2896    AFR 72%    IFR 1%    1YR 134    5YR 2005    Max Repair 1125 MSP

Lockhead E6 HiT MCF Military Drive (8)    Power 156.25    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 37.5    Armour 0    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 60.0 billion km   (111 days at full power)
Northrop Grumman Epsilon R360/12 Shields (15)   Total Fuel Cost  180 Litres per day

Twin PD R9/C5 Meson Cannon Turret (1x2)    Range 90,000km     TS: 45000 km/s     Power 12-10     RM 9    ROF 10        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0
Quad Gauss Rapid Fire R5-17 Turret (3x12)    Range 50,000km     TS: 35000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 5    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
35cm Railgun V6/C5 (3x4)    Range 540,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 27-5     RM 6    ROF 30        9 9 9 9 9 9 7 6 6 5
Escort AI S16 300-25000 (1)    Max Range: 600,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     98 97 95 93 92 90 88 87 85 83
Point Defence Control AI S04 75-25000 (1)    Max Range: 150,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     93 87 80 73 67 60 53 47 40 33
General Electrics Superheated MagCon (1)     Total Power Output 25    Armour 0    Exp 20%

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 40

7.  Don't go multipurpose on your ships - most of the time it won't work.  The only dual purpose ships are my close range combatants who usually pack an extra fire control and PD turret for escort duties.

8.  Adding AAM launchers on your missile ships . . .  doesn't work that well.  You are cutting from the mag space and tonnage.  For AAM duty I use very cheap ships like this one in groups of 6 (you can build them in less than 6 months ).  I don't worry about armor for them - even if they are detected and destroyed I can build 24 more in a couple of months.

Code: [Select]
Agamemnon class Missile Corvette    1,750 tons     195 Crew     573.14 BP      TCS 35  TH 74.88  EM 0
8914 km/s     Armour 1-12     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 9
Maint Life 5.95 Years     MSP 256    AFR 19%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 12    5YR 185    Max Repair 156 MSP
Magazine 102    

Lockhead E6 HiT MCF Military Drive (2)    Power 156.25    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 37.5    Armour 0    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 342.8 billion km   (445 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (9)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Interceptor Control AI FC38-R1 (1)     Range 38.9m km    Resolution 1
S1 C Interceptor 69.4k-4.5m-208.2% (102)  Speed: 69,400 km/s   End: 1.1m    Range: 4.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 694 / 416 / 208

9.  Formations .  Most of the time I split my escort 'vettes in a circle 250k km to allow them one extra launch against missiles.  I also keep my support and command ships about 200k to the back of the fleet , with two or three close range/heavy escorts 100km to the front .  Once I close to beam range I will send my escort vettes 500k behind the main body to keep them safe , with all heavy escorts some distance ahead. 

If I have to kite some really heavy missile salvoes I will send my vettes at least 500k towards the threat to allow them to engage the salvoes over more time.

10.  Out-of-the-box designs.  One thing I experimented with but was a b*tch to micromanage was having 1kt parasites with no engines , a tractor beam and a box of missiles .  You attach them to your carriers and drag them along - and when you need them you can launch a MASSIVE ( 300 size 4 missiles / carrier ) salvo and then reload them in your hangars one or two at a time. 

11.  Jump point defences - use either stations or mines.  Either way it's hard for me at least to keep track of them.

12.  PDC .  I usually go the massive route - and here you can use multipurpose designs since you are not limited by shipyard size.  Here's one of my old designs that take about half a year to build for me :

Code: [Select]
Covington class Planetary Defence Centre    192,950 tons     9497 Crew     20698.2 BP      TCS 3859  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 10-297     Sensors 1/360     Damage Control Rating 100     PPV 789.74
Hangar Deck Capacity 95000 tons     Troop Capacity: 15 Battalions    Magazine 2284    

Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range N/A
Quad R9/C5 Meson Cannon Turret (6x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 24-20     RM 9    ROF 10        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0
PDC Fire Control S16 450-25000 (1)    Max Range: 900,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     99 98 97 96 94 93 92 91 90 89
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1.25 (2)     Total Power Output 100    Armour 0    Exp 20%

S8 Heavy Missile EXR Rack (20)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 24000
Size 16 Missile Launcher (20)    Missile Size 16    Rate of Fire 100
Size 4 Missile Launcher (40)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 25
S16 Capital Missile EXR Rack (10)    Missile Size 16    Rate of Fire 48000
S16 Capital Missile XO Rack (10)    Missile Size 16    Hangar Reload 120 minutes    MF Reload 20 hours
S8 Heavy Missile XO Rack (20)    Missile Size 8    Hangar Reload 60 minutes    MF Reload 10 hours
Size 1 Missile Launcher (30)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Interceptor Control AI FC38-R1 (1)     Range 38.9m km    Resolution 1
Gravitic Long Range Scanner FC851-R120 (1)     Range 851.8m km    Resolution 120

Gravitic Active Scanner M708-R120 (1)     GPS 43200     Range 709.8m km    Resolution 120


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 78 sections

Yes , you can build em in sections and transport them. 
 

Offline Zook

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 11:28:54 AM »
What about at unmaned refuel/resupply stations? And what about designing them size,armour and armament for example?

Dump some stuff on an empty planet and forget about defending it. Don't buy a tank to guard a fuel can. But a fuel depot alone doesn't make much sense without maintenance facilities, you'd be better of with a tanker. And MF need workers and minerals and now we're talking about a real colony.
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 11:46:45 AM »
What about at unmaned refuel/resupply stations? And what about designing them size,armour and armament for example?
Fuel, Supplies and Ordonance can be stored on a colony without requiring a PDC for defence. Such a stockpile would have a relatively low profile and its best defense might be to avoid detection, especially if the body is unlikely to be of major interest. I.e. an asteroid would be a good place. In this case a PDC would actually increase the visibility of the stockpile.

That being said, I like to place PDC on strategic points, even if no colony is present. For instance in my current game the Sirius jump point is within Venus Orbit, (i.e. potentially very close to earth). Even if no planet in Sirius is of particular interest colony-wise, and no body is close to any jumppoint, I still placed a strong PDC at one of the planets, along with tracking stations, missile, fuel and maintenance stockpiles. I want to be able to battle in that system, maybe even with earth-based FACs.

Dump some stuff on an empty planet and forget about defending it. Don't buy a tank to guard a fuel can. But a fuel depot alone doesn't make much sense without maintenance facilities, you'd be better of with a tanker. And MF need workers and minerals and now we're talking about a real colony.
Why should a pure fuel depot not make sense? You do not need an overhaul every time you fill up the tank (see above, using a fuel depot as a staging place for FACs from another system).

And a tanker is a significant capital investment just to be loitering around (even keeping aside that it is highly visible and can be destroyed). I currently have a couple of tankers, one of which is happily placing fuel stashed at selected locations some systems out...

EDIT: Also you can use ship-based maintenance and mining, so you dont need an actual colony with people on the ground...
 

Offline niflheimr

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 11:57:43 AM »
@theokrat

I suppose it depends on your fleet SOP .  I for one never deploy less than a battlegroup ( 2-4 corvette squadrons , 2 close range , 4 missiles , 2 carrier , command and support ) which means I usually have at least four tankers with me most of the time.  PDC's draw attention to the enemy and might make him go active sensors - which means my jump point defenses and mines are toast.
 

Offline Zook

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 01:52:44 PM »
I meant that a fuel dump in a remote area might never get used, and tankers are pretty cheap IMO. A 3000-ton design can hold more than a million liters, plus 1000+ MSP.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Military Ship Design
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 02:53:01 PM »
The game is really about ship design as much as anything else.  The important part is the basics: getting a proper combination of systems to ensure that the ship is combat capable. Everything after that is gameplay.