Author Topic: Hangars in C# Aurora  (Read 10548 times)

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Offline SevenOfCarina (OP)

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Hangars in C# Aurora
« on: May 07, 2019, 12:57:42 PM »
I'm uncertain if Steve has already encountered this problem, or if this is something that has already been discussed, but hangars, in their present iteration, are massively overpowered.

Hangars eliminate maintenance requirements for parasites, allow for easy and rapid transfer of ordnance, fuel, and supplies, and launch and retrieve craft instantaneously. They're cheap, and absurdly efficient at what they do, with a tiny mass penalty. (Seriously, 100t of extra space is somehow enough for maintenance gantries, fabricators, crew spaces, ship-to-parasite transfer systems, and maneuvering clearance for a 1000t parasite?) And that isn't even going into the inherent superiority of parasite ships that can sacrifice endurance for performance.

Right now, carriers can uprate their capabilities by simply replacing their parasites, which is fast, cheap, and doesn't require yard time, unlike the time-consuming and expensive process that is upgrading full ships. Carriers thus have a much longer service life than other ships, which are useless once outdated. Parasites are hard to detect because of their small size, and can afford to be much faster; they can often outrange and outrun their opponents. And thanks to the increased susceptibility of box launchers that render them unviable for use in larger ships, they can outgun them too, and the sensor nerf means there simply isn't enough time to throw out enough AMMs to counter a box-launcher salvo.

It's ridiculous. Carrier-parasite is clearly the most optimum solution for anything, and it shouldn't be. I'm proposing a few rather simple changes to bring hangars and parasites back in line with the rest of the game. Effectively, hangars should be designable components with background techs, like magazines, with their costs and crew requirements correspondingly affected.

First : For their volume, hangars are entirely too efficient. It's unreasonable to expect that 100t of clearance is enough to manoeuvre a 1000t parasite, or to inspect, service, or repair it. I'm proposing a new line of techs, termed 'Hangar Overhead' that governs how much overhead a hangar needs to support a certain volume of parasites, starting from 100% overhead at TL0 and maxing out at 20% overhead.
i.e. Hangar Size = Hangar Capacity * [100 + Hangar Overhead]/100
So a 1000t capacity hangar with 50% overhead will be a 1500t component, while with the 40% overhead tech, it'll be a 1400t component. Civilian hangars will be cheaper but have twice the overhead volume of military hangars.

Second: Launching and retrieving parasites from hangars should not be instantaneous. Larger hangars will have a lower relative surface area compared to smaller hangars, so they should take longer to launch all their parasites. Larger ships should also have less space to manoeuvre, and take longer to launch. Another line of techs, similar to missile launch rate, will govern this factor.
For the sake of consistency, let us assume that this follows missile launch rate.
Launch/Retrieval Time = SQRT[Parasite Size in HS]*(Hangar Handling Modifier)*150sec/(Parasite Launch Rate)
Hangar Handling Modifier = SQRT[Hangar Size in HS]
The parasite launch rate tech line is identical to the missile launch rate tech line.
There could also be a tech that prevented parasites from being recovered while in motion till it was researched, similar to the Underway Replenishment tech line.

Third : Hangars should never completely remove maintenance requirements, and should also not be able to fully repair parasites. It makes no sense and has no basis in the real world. Even the most modern aircraft carriers could never maintain their airwing at peak operating conditions for an arbitrary amount of time, and could never properly patch-up a battle-damaged aircraft. There will invariably be some component or the other for which a spare is not on hand, or which cannot be repaired on site. What hangars should do is extend the maintenance life of parasites, modified by the size of the hangar itself. A new line of techs governs this, termed Hangar Maintenance Modifier, starting at 25% and ending at 5%, and MSP is drawn from ship stocks to maintain parasites.
Hangar Failure Rate = (Parasite Failure Rate)*(Hangar Maintenance Modifier)/(SQRT[(Hangar Size in HS)/10]
What this means is that parasites in hangars have their maintenance clock tick at a slower rate than normal, and consume MSP at this lower rate : this signifies that the hangar fabricators and maintenance facilities can service most of the parasite's systems, but some systems (i.e. precision instruments, critical machinery, etc.) cannot be manufactured on board and are consumables. Larger hangars are also better at extending parasite life, but dedicated maintenance facilities should be needed to properly maintain or repair ships.

In effect these proposed changes now provide adequate incentive to actually upgrade or replace carriers. Early game carriers will, like missile and beam ships, be crude, bulky, and pretty terrible at what they do. As technology improves, carriers will be able to hold more fighters, launch them faster, and keep them in peak condition for longer. It also provides an interesting dynamic between larger hangars that take longer to be emptied but can maintain parasites better and smaller hangars that have faster response times but aren't that good at maintaining stuff. It's also now possible to 'ambush' a carrier before it can finish deploying its complement.

This is largely just a skeletal idea with mostly placeholder values, what do you folk think?

Edit : I made a new topic so as to not interrupt the present debate on research methodologies in the suggestions thread.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 01:03:37 PM by SevenOfCarina »
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 04:52:26 PM »
These are some pretty darn good suggestions and I do think they would work really well. I fully agree that hangars are way overpowered in relation to operating other main combat missile ships. In C# this will be even more so with the sensor model changed to favour smaller craft rather than smaller.

Another important thing I have commented a few times as well is free maintenance on parasites. Given how cheap hangars is and how expensive parasites can be the maintenance are nearly free in comparison. Without having to pay maintenance it might even be more useful to build hangar stations to place all your ships in C#, you now pay supplies for everything so it is a one time investment to build the hangar station. You can lower the supply cost considerably this way, the higher the tech level the more you will save cost in the long run.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 04:54:36 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Whitecold

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 05:28:23 PM »
Steve talks in http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg101959;topicseen#msg101959 about maintenance, and I read it as ships in hangars using up supplies, but it would be good to have explicit confirmation.
 

Offline Cavgunner

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 05:52:45 PM »
I agree that these ideas have merit.  However I think it's worthwhile to state the obvious:  while the carrier can enhance its capabilities by upgrading its fighters, the fighters themselves cannot be upgraded.  Therefore, after a few tech bumps one is often left with a large stock of 2nd-rate and 3rd-rate fighters. 

This is not necessarily a bad thing.  Fighters can always be used for home defense, after all, or they can simply be scrapped.  However I just wanted to point out that there IS a tradeoff to a carrier's long lifespan.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2019, 06:01:06 PM »
Fighters and sensor scouts generally last longer even when outdated are my experiences. Once they are too old you just scrap them and get some of the resources back and build new fighters in their place. It actually is cheaper in the long run than upgrading ships which certainly is not free either.
 

Offline Scandinavian

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2019, 06:38:22 PM »
I think this makes sense. A few refinements I would propose are:

1. With hangars as designable components, I would introduce a maximum parasite size, set at the time of designing the hangar. This can be as large as the designer wants (up to the size of the hangar) - after all, the Peace Moon canonically carries a parasite complement of Victory-class star destroyers. However, the larger the maximum size of individual parasite craft, the less efficient the hangar operations. This would change the hangar hull space overhead to be:
Hangar Size = Hangar Capacity * [100 + Hangar Overhead * (1 + Hangar Handling Modifier)]/100
Where:
Hangar Handling  Modifier = SQRT(Maximum Parasite Size / Hangar Capacity)
and Hangar Overhead is a tech line following the previously proposed convention.

2. The initially proposed formula for launch/retrieval time of parasite craft makes the time to launch each parasite scale with the size of the queue of waiting parasites behind it, which makes limited sense. It also means that simply splitting the carrier in half (and designing each of the smaller vessels with proportional hull space allocation) would more than double your launch rate.
I would instead propose instead the following:
Launch/Retrieval Time = (1 + Hangar Handling Modifier) * 150sec / (Parasite Launch Rate)
Where:
Hangar Handling Modifier as defined above, and Parasite Launch Rate as in the original proposal.

Effectively, with these two proposals, each Hangar component would represent one launch window and corresponding staging area - so if you had three hangars each able to handle 400 ton parasites, you would be able to launch parasites at 2-point-something the rate of a single hangar, but at the cost of a higher space overhead.

3: The original proposal for parasite maintenance interacts poorly with the way the maintenance clock mechanic works. Rather than going off the parasite's internal maintenance clock, maintenance should go off the carrier's, and the carrier should be allowed to overhaul the parasite back to the point where the parasite's Annual Failure Rate matches the carrier's current AFR (if better, and it usually will be), but no further. It makes sense that the carrier cannot maintain the parasites at optimal operating capacity, but a major point of a carrier is to offload the internal engineering spaces on the parasite to the carrier.
 

Offline Xtrem532

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 02:53:58 AM »
Designable Hangars?!?

Yes, please!
Maybe even two versions, where you can design a "general" hangar, where all the normal rules apply, and a "specialized" hangar, where you specify a Fighter class for which the hangar is designed.  All other Fighter classes will take up x more space (25%?) and get less Maintainace benefits than the specialized class, but the hangar will have less overhead (80% of normal?).  This would still eliminate the problem with the current hangars being cheap to upgrade by changing the fighter class.  You can then choose between inefficient but upgradeable or efficient but not upgradeable.

Kinda related question: Do you guys think more designable parts than in VB would just add useless micromanagement or add more variety in ship designs?
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 08:03:58 AM »
Designable Hangars?!?

Yes, please!
Maybe even two versions, where you can design a "general" hangar, where all the normal rules apply, and a "specialized" hangar, where you specify a Fighter class for which the hangar is designed.  All other Fighter classes will take up x more space (25%?) and get less Maintainace benefits than the specialized class, but the hangar will have less overhead (80% of normal?).  This would still eliminate the problem with the current hangars being cheap to upgrade by changing the fighter class.  You can then choose between inefficient but upgradeable or efficient but not upgradeable.

Kinda related question: Do you guys think more designable parts than in VB would just add useless micromanagement or add more variety in ship designs?

Instead of class I think you should specify a maximum size of parasite... that would be more reasonable from an abstraction sense. Thus you can design a hangar to operate anything from 500t and below at max efficiency and anything above at lower efficiency and at say double the designed efficiency a parasite can't even dock in the hangar at all. Any hangar must then be at least twice the size of the optimal parasite to maintain.

A ship operating parasites at say 2000t should be radically different from a carrier designed to operate parasites at 500t. The amount of total hangar space is not really important because it can easily be designed so that a 2000t vessel can't ever fit in it even if it can swallow 20.000t worth if 500t and below crafts.
 

Offline JustAnotherDude

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 08:36:06 AM »
To be honest this seems to entirely eliminate the usefulness of hangars, at least if done all at once. Large ships have already been substantially buffed in C#. I at least think waiting until after release to look at this sort of stuff would be a good idea.
 
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Offline lordcirth

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 09:19:31 AM »
Having hangars built for different sizes is cool.  However, people will want to have fighters, FACs, sensor ships, etc on the same carrier.  A system that puts every parasite into the smallest hangar that fits would work with a simple size cap.  Any additional complexity would end up requiring a UI for hangar slot assignments, which is excessive even for Aurora.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 09:32:44 AM »
To be honest this seems to entirely eliminate the usefulness of hangars, at least if done all at once. Large ships have already been substantially buffed in C#. I at least think waiting until after release to look at this sort of stuff would be a good idea.

To be honest I don't think Steve will do any more major changes to anything before releasing C# Aurora anymore. This would have to be something for later... I'm sure of that.

I do think that Hangars and the way they work should be due for some consideration. Hangars are a bit too abstracted and too good, they should be more of an option.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 09:40:40 AM »
Having hangars built for different sizes is cool.  However, people will want to have fighters, FACs, sensor ships, etc on the same carrier.  A system that puts every parasite into the smallest hangar that fits would work with a simple size cap.  Any additional complexity would end up requiring a UI for hangar slot assignments, which is excessive even for Aurora.

What I suggested is a maximum size that is optimum for storage, launching and maintain parasites and should not be overly difficult to work with.

If you design the carrier or hangar for 1000t then you operate everything at 1000t and below at peak efficiency and anything between 1000-2000t at lower efficiency and above 2000t they simply would not be allowed to dock at all.

The higher the max docking size the more space you need for servicing, launching and storage.
 

Offline SevenOfCarina (OP)

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 09:48:30 AM »
TBH, I think it makes sense to bifurcate hangars into Hangar Modules proper, which store, maintain, repair, and rearm parasites, and Launch Bays, which launch and retrieve parasites. It's simpler to parrot missiles in this regard.
 
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Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 09:55:28 AM »
Fighters and sensor scouts generally last longer even when outdated are my experiences. Once they are too old you just scrap them and get some of the resources back and build new fighters in their place. It actually is cheaper in the long run than upgrading ships which certainly is not free either.

Whilst true I've found from experience that it is also a pretty large logistical effort to take new fighters and have the fleet training completed. You generally need additional ships away from your combat carriers to do this which ups the overheads.

Combat ships can also be upgraded incrementally with new sensors and fire controls and engines and not suffer the need for retraining and for missile ships I've found they can remain pretty effective just by swapping out the newest batch of missiles.

I think with the maintenance changes this has already equalised the system a lot.

Finally on the launch delay piece, when you are talking about days of flight time for the fighters to engage a hostile then even a few hours of time to launch really makes no difference. This only really becomes and issue for something like a warp point assault or defence where I agree that a delay would be a good mechanic to have in. I've always thought this could be done by having both a hanger component and a ship launcher component as ive also been bugged by the idea that my carrier can on one hand deal with 100 fighters and then just empty those out and doc a 5000 ton ship instead.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 09:58:19 AM by chrislocke2000 »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Hangars in C# Aurora
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 12:03:51 PM »
Another important thing I have commented a few times as well is free maintenance on parasites. Given how cheap hangars is and how expensive parasites can be the maintenance are nearly free in comparison. Without having to pay maintenance it might even be more useful to build hangar stations to place all your ships in C#, you now pay supplies for everything so it is a one time investment to build the hangar station. You can lower the supply cost considerably this way, the higher the tech level the more you will save cost in the long run.
It is already entirely possible to build massive PDC hangars and put your entire fleet into them to avoid having to pay maintenance on them. Some players have done so and it works - except for carriers with parasites on them as those will vanish when you put the carrier(s) into a hangar. But you can circumvent that by having separate PDC Hangar for fighters. It's just exploiting the system and not really any different from playing without maintenance at all. In that sense C# is not introducing new issues, just carrying forward an existing one.

I've found from experience that it is also a pretty large logistical effort to take new fighters and have the fleet training completed. You generally need additional ships away from your combat carriers to do this which ups the overheads.

Combat ships can also be upgraded incrementally with new sensors and fire controls and engines and not suffer the need for retraining and for missile ships I've found they can remain pretty effective just by swapping out the newest batch of missiles.
Yes, exactly that. While I agree that carrier+parasite combo is very powerful, it is also micro-intensive despite extensive use of Naval Organization tab (and the improvements to that coming in C#) and not quite as omnipotent as SevenOfCarina makes them out to be in his initial post.

Don't get me wrong, these changes - or something similar - would be great to have. I just don't agree that the system as a whole is so broken that these changes are critically warranted as soon as possible.