Fleet Design Feedback

[captainwolfer (OP)]

So I've designed a few ships designed to work together as my standard fleet units, and want some feedback on them:

Note that I recently upgraded them from improved nuclear pulse to Ion, which is why they all have the number 2 in their name

- They are based on multiples of 6,000 and use 2,000 ton engines for a balance between fuel efficiency and redundancy.
- Frigates would be 6,000 tons, Destroyers are 12,000 tons, Cruisers are 24,000 tons, Battleships would be 48,000 tons
- Ships are divided into squadrons, each squadron having 1 jump ship and 3 normal ships

Jump cruiser - dedicated to Gauss Point defense due to lack of room for notable offensive firepower

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Dayton 2 class Jump Cruiser      23 999 tons       534 Crew       3 489.6 BP       TCS 480    TH 1 500    EM 0
3125 km/s    JR 4-50      Armour 9-74       Shields 0-0       HTK 121      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 9      PPV 105.72
Maint Life 1.43 Years     MSP 2 657    AFR 512%    IFR 7.1%    1YR 1 427    5YR 21 404    Max Repair 790.7 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   FLG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

J24000(4-50)E6 Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 24000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 4

Military Ion Drive EP500.00 (3)    Power 1500    Fuel Use 35.00%    Signature 500    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 539 000 Litres    Range 33 billion km (122 days at full power)

Twin GC R20k-F3 Turret (6x6)    Range 20 000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
PDFC R48-TS16k (2)     Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 16 000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

PDSS AS11/M1-R1 (1)     GPS 48     Range 11.1m km    MCR 995k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Main Cruiser - Main source of firepower

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Napoleon 2 class Cruiser      23 999 tons       477 Crew       3 322 BP       TCS 480    TH 1 500    EM 0
3125 km/s      Armour 9-74       Shields 0-0       HTK 141      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 8      PPV 115.24
Maint Life 1.97 Years     MSP 1 892    AFR 576%    IFR 8.0%    1YR 643    5YR 9 642    Max Repair 250 MSP
Magazine 1 216   
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Military Ion Drive EP500.00 (3)    Power 1500    Fuel Use 35.00%    Signature 500    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 623 000 Litres    Range 34.8 billion km (128 days at full power)

Twin GC R20k-F3 Turret (2x6)    Range 20 000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
PDFC R48-TS16k (2)     Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 16 000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

ASM-5 Launcher R3-S0.4 (40)     Missile Size: 5    Rate of Fire 450
MFC83-R100 (4)     Range 83.8m km    Resolution 100
ASM-5 Mk1 (240)    Speed: 21 760 km/s    End: 46m     Range: 60.1m km    WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 79/47/23
SenM-5 Mk1 (3)    Speed: 10 000 km/s    End: 423.5m     Range: 254.1m km    WH: 0    Size: 5    TH: 33/20/10

ASS AS114-R100 (1)     GPS 24000     Range 114.7m km    Resolution 100
PDSS AS11/M1-R1 (1)     GPS 48     Range 11.1m km    MCR 995k km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Jump Destroyer - Same principle as Jump Cruiser on a smaller scale

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Oakland 2 class Jump Destroyer      12 000 tons       285 Crew       1 571.5 BP       TCS 240    TH 1 000    EM 0
4167 km/s    JR 4-50      Armour 5-46       Shields 0-0       HTK 61      Sensors 8/24/0/0      DCR 7      PPV 35.24
Maint Life 3.19 Years     MSP 1 773    AFR 165%    IFR 2.3%    1YR 263    5YR 3 941    Max Repair 250 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

J12000(4-50)E6 Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 12000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 4

Military Ion Drive EP500.00 (2)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 35.00%    Signature 500    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 823 000 Litres    Range 35.3 billion km (97 days at full power)

Twin GC R20k-F3 Turret (2x6)    Range 20 000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
PDFC R48-TS16k (2)     Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 16 000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

PDSS AS11/M1-R1 (1)     GPS 48     Range 11.1m km    MCR 995k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-8.0 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
EM Sensor EM3.00-24.00 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Destroyer - Their job is to intercept missiles, kill enemy fighters/FACS, and ensure the fleet isn't defenseless if the missiles are used up.  Note that the AMMs are not intended to stop all incoming missiles, only to reduce the number of incoming missiles so that Point Defense can handle them.

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Outreach 2 class Destroyer      12 000 tons       295 Crew       1 647.1 BP       TCS 240    TH 1 000    EM 0
4167 km/s      Armour 5-46       Shields 0-0       HTK 78      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 5      PPV 57.48
Maint Life 2.24 Years     MSP 951    AFR 209%    IFR 2.9%    1YR 256    5YR 3 840    Max Repair 250 MSP
Magazine 264   
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Military Ion Drive EP500.00 (2)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 35.00%    Signature 500    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 751 000 Litres    Range 32.2 billion km (89 days at full power)

Twin 12cm 10s/2C NUV Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 120 000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 8-4     RM 30 000 km    ROF 10       
BFC R144-TS16000 (1)     Max Range: 144 000 km   TS: 16 000 km/s     93 86 79 72 65 58 51 44 38 31
IPB Reactor R9-PB20 (2)     Total Power Output 17.6    Exp 10%

AMM-1 Launcher R10s (10)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 10
AMM FC18/M1.6-R1 (1)     Range 18.1m km    Resolution 1
AMM-1 Mk1 (264)    Speed: 18 800 km/s    End: 1.3m     Range: 1.5m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 144/86/43

MSS AS20/M1.8-R1 (1)     GPS 160     Range 20.2m km    MCR 1.8m km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Looking over them, it occurs to me that while I unlocked Ion engines, I haven't actually made any new missiles that use the Ion engines, only put Ion engines on the ships.

[nuclearslurpee]

So, right away, two glaring things stand out to me:

• Your ships are way, way, way too slow. For ion tech you should be pulling speeds of 4000 km/s at a minimum, and for missile ships that's fine (you do need speed, but not as badly) but for beam weapon ships you want more like 5000 km/s. 3,125 km/s is slow for an INPE ship let alone ion drives.
• Maint Life on your cruisers is shoddy. I usually try to get 2 years minimum from a warship, and your MSP will be eaten through faster than you expect in combat due to the 2% chance of breakdown when a weapon fires. You also need more MSP and DCR (both!) to handle battle damage, for a 24,000-ton ship I'd expect at least 15-20 DCR which means stack on a bunch more engineering spaces. Keeping a buffer between your Maint Life and deployment time gives you a bit more flexibility and some insurance against a poor failure roll at the tail end of a deployment. Ships with short Maint Lives rely very heavily on bases, Maint modules, and replenishment ships to keep them operational which means they can be in danger if the logistics support is not as good as it should be.

Your overall fleet doctrine looks fine in terms of ship roles and weapon usage. Armor is a bit heavy but seems reasonable for the ship size and tech level. Range is good, a lot of people prefer 20m range but I personally like 30m which lends more towards a doctrine around basing rather than underway replenishment.

You can probably stand to put AUX on your destroyers as it's a small module and gives your junior commanders something to do. For the jump drives I would have picked up the 100k range tech as it's not expensive and makes it somewhat easier to mount a JP assault and evade defensive beam fire.

Your cruisers could stand to mount a mid-resolution active sensor, perhaps resolution 10 or 20 and size 1 HS at the largest, to allow them to detect and shoot down fighters or FACs that close in and attack from medium range. Your destroyers already fill this role though so it isn't a necessity, the main reason to do this actually would be to cut lasers out from your research plan and mount more Gauss PD on the destroyers instead.

[brondi00]

A matter of preference but I generally research a 0.1HS res 100 and res 1 sensor and put them on everything.

These will cover you at beam range so your PD can be in final fire mode and your lasers can shoot even if the other ships in the fleet lose their sensors.  For 10 tons every ship can continue fighting even if the other ships are badly damaged.

Obviously this doesn't work as well for missile ships since a 0.1HS sensor isn't going to give them much range.

I also agree with the previous post.  I'd pump that speed up.  Your ships are at the speed I'd have imp nuclear pulse ships going.I usually have military ion ships going 4500 km/s.  But depending on your expected enemies your speed could be fine.

[Zap0]

Going to agree on the speed part. That one always seems to be the #1 piece of advice in these "rate my fleet" threads. That said, since you're centered around missiles and turrets, pushing hard on speed isn't as critical for you. 3k is still very slow for ions, however. 30b range strikes me as more range than a warship really needs, unless you want it to be capable of independent operation. When you make the engines more powerful the range will go down naturally. Otherwise, warship tonnage spent on flight range is best outsourced to a tanker.

Your engines are big. Consider having more smaller engines instead for added redundancy (more resilient ships under fire) and cheaper maintenance failures (= longer maint life, less tonnage spent on engineering/msp).

You only have a thermal sensor on the jump destroyer. I'd prefer to have thermal coverage on all ships which may operate alone - so probably not on escorts that are always escorting something, but on the main fighting ships and the jump cruiser.

I don't really agree that the maintenance life on your warships is bad, if anything I'd say it's high. Judging by your AFR and MSP capacity it seems you have a lot of maintenance stores aboard, which makes the life admittedly look longer than it really is, assuming you have those stores not to extend maintenance life, but to cover battle damage and fire failures. I haven't run into MSP problems from failures during weapons fire yet, but quick napkin math shows that firing all missiles will result in 60 MSP being consumed through failures, so unless you're doing continuous beam fire it seems negligible. Likewise, I don't frequently run into situations where it matters if I repair an engine in 3 or 8 hours (self-repair speed is all damage control does). There is a lot of fleet philosophy and circumstance that can justify extra tonnage spent on maintenance systems, but for a warship that goes out, punches an npr and comes home, 6-12 months maintenance life are plenty imho. Things like extra msp stores for repairs are best outsourced to support ships, unless again you see yourself in a situation where you don't have such support.

12cm twin laser turrets, my favorite! Have you gotten capacitor 4 yet? You should definitely make a version with RoF 5 when you get it.

[misanthropope]

building your fleet to 25% speed is fine if you're pushing hard on engine research (and havent gimped your research rate).  if you've got a radius four empire and your fleet is at 3kkps.... ugh.  missiles that are too slow is infinity times bigger problem.

you could get away with shaving some range, since tankers are going to be able to keep up with your fleet.  i don't know that it's a big deal.  i think you've got significantly too much armor, and i think maybe you could shave magazine to fit more launchers?  i almost never run through four full volleys, and like the fuel, auxilia aren't exactly going to hamstring your response time.

warhead 4, or for that matter 16, is firmly in "sandpaper" territory.  presuming your new missiles will have higher warhead as well as better engines, i suggest not going out of your way at all to get a perfect square.  25% speed lugging around warhead 8 asm is enormously unfashionable without being at all ineffective.

24kt at ion strikes me as just generally weird; there is a certain ambient tech level necessary to really make big ships sensible, and if you have that, you really REALLY ought to have put the effort into magneto's plasma instead.  but of course that is only relevant (... if ever) next universe.