Author Topic: Planetary Invasions  (Read 3267 times)

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Offline IanD (OP)

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Planetary Invasions
« on: October 23, 2020, 05:09:19 PM »
This may be working as intended, however it seems more than harsh.

Example An enemy colony of 17.1 million inhabitants and 193 installations defended by approx 9 battalions of mainly infantry and 20-30 STOs.
 
I attacked with 11 transports, 9 of which manage to drop their troops, giving me 31 armoured combat battalions and 8 Brigade HQ units. I landed on the 1st June 2068 at 19:48. Combat finished on the 11th July at 00:33. There was no indication the enemy had been defeated and the colony just disappeared. That seems a little harsh for a mere 41 days of combat.

In addition the Events record is just too detailed, The ElementvGUC Report. GUCvGUC Summary and possibly Element Loss Summary are superfluous. The main items I looked at were Ground Combat Intelligence, Ground Attack Summary and Ground Defence Summary. When you invade a major population centre with combat going on for months you get an awful lot of reports to go through. I can't help thinking that ground combat every 8 hours is a bit excessive. Once a day or once a week would be more reasonable otherwise your troops must suffer a lot of PTSD. Could not the combat be concentrated into major and minor offensives reported on less frequently? I found Aurora turned from being a game of spaceships to one of ground combat.

Finally the number of STO units appears high to me. It always takes me a couple of years to build a modest STO unit. But perhaps that's because I don't prioritize building Ground Force Construction Complexes. What have other people found?
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Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2020, 05:29:16 PM »
There's been a lot of (virtual) ink spilled on the balance of C# ground combat, with no clear consensus I could see. The only things that came out of the discussions for 1.12 were the addition of replacements (to help with micro) and I THINK a commitment to look at orbital bombardment to make it a bit stronger.

Regarding the reports: it is intentionally absurdly detailed. The idea is that you can hide most of the reports unless you need them for an AAR.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2020, 09:58:25 PM »
The problem I found with STOs is the same as you. It happens because Ground construction does not work like other industry and is on a per-facility basis. The solution right now is to use database editing to extend the ground force construction rate tech line so that each facility can build things faster.

Alternatively you build loads of facilities and build all the STOs in parallel.

The events you can just hide so its only annoying on the first instance. I like to keep the formation loss summary so I know what types of formations are taking the most casualties.

One thing I did notice is that collateral damage due to ground combat seems to be insane. The whole point of doing an invasion is to save the facilities on the planet but it seems like any modicum of defense will make the fighting ravage the entire colony immediately even with the absence of OBS. I expect the colony to be in tatters, not for it to be totally annihilated.
 

Offline IanD (OP)

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2020, 09:16:07 AM »
The problem I found with STOs is the same as you. It happens because Ground construction does not work like other industry and is on a per-facility basis. The solution right now is to use database editing to extend the ground force construction rate tech line so that each facility can build things faster.

Alternatively you build loads of facilities and build all the STOs in parallel.

The events you can just hide so its only annoying on the first instance. I like to keep the formation loss summary so I know what types of formations are taking the most casualties.

One thing I did notice is that collateral damage due to ground combat seems to be insane. The whole point of doing an invasion is to save the facilities on the planet but it seems like any modicum of defense will make the fighting ravage the entire colony immediately even with the absence of OBS. I expect the colony to be in tatters, not for it to be totally annihilated.

I too would keep both Formation attack and loss summary for AARs, but the individual elements are not required. It may be sacrilege but in a lot of ways I was left wishing for a return of the VB6 ground combat mechanics. I can only hope this is fixed for 1.13 and very soon. As I said earlier why bother invading when you can just nuke from orbit with the same result.

Edit: Just found a lot of asteroid populations, Out of the 7 located most have reasonable ground forces of 1100 tons. However, two had crazy numbers of 41,100 and 31,500 tons respectively. They will just have to be nuked.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 12:23:41 PM by IanD »
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Offline Demetrious

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2020, 04:26:26 PM »
While a re-balancing is likely in order, one issue making it worse at present is the problems with ground support fighters - I've got a bug report post ready on this; the tl;dr is that ground support fighters don't get protection from STO units even when they're over the system body.   

By design, dug-in STO units are very hard to dig out with orbital fire, unless it's indiscriminate nuking - this entire dynamic is kind of essential, as it's the justification for ground forces existing at all in most sci-fi settings.   And the harsh scaling of collateral damage, and resulting importance of infantry in limiting it is not only "realistic" but a common sci-fi trope as well; witness the famous comment on "killing only left-handed redheads" in the book Starship Troopers. 

The problem is that ground support fighters - or aerospace fighters, if you prefer - are a key element in most any sci-fi orbital invasion for these exact reasons.   Once they hit atmo and start tangling with similarly-sized ground units, they're within a hulking STO unit's minimum range, and thus are perfect for hunting down STO units and destroying them - basically a SEAD/DEAD mission.   (In fact, we might ask for an additional ground support fighter order, in the vein of "Search and Destroy" and "Flak Suppression" orders; one devoted to "STO Suppression.  ") Without the ability to prepare a landing zone with a carrier crammed full of tiny but effective ground attack fighters, your only options for dealing with defensive STOs are indiscriminate nuking (which wipes out the populace) or just rushing with your troopships and hoping for the best.   (Technically sustained NBG with long-range energy ships is possible, but not on any planet with a decent defensive terrain modifier.  )

The "rush" tactic makes all this more problematic, as it means you're either hurling lots of small fast troopships at the target to saturate defenses and get enough through, or going the other direction with a few very heavily shielded and armored ships to ensure they can penetrate.   To take a planet without hideous casualties mandates maximal use of infantry with light weapons, given how collateral damage scales - the former approach is sacrificing some of those troops, and building small, fast ships is not very compatible with infantry formations, which are pretty bulky.   And the latter approach just begs one to use heavy armor - while it's twice as expensive, it's half the transport size.   

And that brings us to the actual details of ground support itself.   One might reasonably expect a capital-scale energy or kinetic weapon on an orbiting starship to make more of a mess than one might like, even with careful co-ordination from ground-based forward observers; but a dedicated ground support fighter should work.  .  .   pretty much like real life ones do, under similar JTAC guidance.   And if one accounts for the need to limit heavy firepower when attacking highly populated settlements, the ground forces will be highly reliant on precision air support to deliver heavy anti-tank (AP) firepower, which their own formations will lack.   

In sum, while the collateral damage model could likely use some simple scaling adjustments or perhaps more sophistication or weighing, it's also true that we don't have a full picture of the at-launch ground combat model of Aurora C# yet.   Most significantly, NPRs using their own air support isn't implemented yet, which is significant, as one would expect the NPRs to also have a vested interest in limiting collateral damage on their own planet, and for the reasons discussed above, air power would be an ideal way to do that.  As for re-balancing, heavy AP weapons should probably be treated gentler for collateral damage purposes; they're designed for maximum armor penetration on a point target.   It doesn't make as much sense for them to cause indiscriminate damage in the way bombardment weapons would.  This would resolve the big extant problem of needing to bring effective AP firepower on heavy units, but all options for doing so having significant limitations and/or collateral damage issues. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 04:29:42 PM by Demetrious »
 
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Offline IanD (OP)

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2020, 05:08:20 PM »
Trying to nuke an asteroid which had a ground force strength of 41,100. After expending 1798 missiles with strength 5 warheads there is still a ground forces strength of 13,900 left. Even though I was only using small warheads I think there needs to be  a new tech line for bunker busters to dig out dug in ground forces.
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Offline Kylemmie

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2020, 09:51:40 AM »
Newer player, so possibly discussed in detail already but. . .

I see discussions about needing to destroy dug in troops by some form of space bombardment.  Using thousands of missiles to kill dirtside enemies.   We have Tractor beams and I regularly tow Million Ton bases around. 

If you decide it's Genocide or bust - Why not toss an asteroid at the infected stellar body?   I know it's not modeled currently.  And prob a pita to code in making Asteroids towable compared to it's usefulness.

But SM it if you don't want to micro an actual space weapon attack on a dug in force?  I'm sure someone can come up with a chart of projectile size needed to 'Nuke' completely the various sized colonies.  Set aside a Tug as 'no use' for X Time to simulate it's usage.  SM out the appropriate sized Asteroid and turn the target to glass. 

Just seems to me when I RP it, most SF I've read implies it would be much cheaper and faster to just toss rocks once you've made the Genocide decision.  I imagine my Fleet Commanders cursing the Policy that forces them to expend valuable ordinance while free rocks are bouncing off their hulls. 
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2020, 10:00:18 AM »
Newer player, so possibly discussed in detail already but. . .

I see discussions about needing to destroy dug in troops by some form of space bombardment.  Using thousands of missiles to kill dirtside enemies.   We have Tractor beams and I regularly tow Million Ton bases around. 

If you decide it's Genocide or bust - Why not toss an asteroid at the infected stellar body?   I know it's not modeled currently.  And prob a pita to code in making Asteroids towable compared to it's usefulness.

But SM it if you don't want to micro an actual space weapon attack on a dug in force?  I'm sure someone can come up with a chart of projectile size needed to 'Nuke' completely the various sized colonies.  Set aside a Tug as 'no use' for X Time to simulate it's usage.  SM out the appropriate sized Asteroid and turn the target to glass. 

Just seems to me when I RP it, most SF I've read implies it would be much cheaper and faster to just toss rocks once you've made the Genocide decision.  I imagine my Fleet Commanders cursing the Policy that forces them to expend valuable ordinance while free rocks are bouncing off their hulls.

Well warhammer 40k has cyclonic torpedos which are used to bring exterminatus on a world. So the idea of a planet killing WMD is probably not too far fetched w.r.t trans-newtonian technology. You could lock it as a ruin tech or just have it be expensive as hell. I do think that you should have to pay a premium for the convenience of such a weapon though and its deployment would have to me militarily non-trivial.
Either way any implementation would need to make sure that ground combat isn't made redundant.
 

Offline Llamageddon

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2020, 10:07:39 AM »
Quote
Just seems to me when I RP it, most SF I've read implies it would be much cheaper and faster to just toss rocks once you've made the Genocide decision.

I'm not sure it still happens in C# aurora but in VB6 aurora if you removed a mass driver from a population whilst another mass driver was sending packets to that colony it would result in mass destruction as the incoming packets collided with the mass driverless body. Implementing this feature for purposeful bombardment might be an interesting solution to your suggestion of using asteroids for bombardment. All you'd really need to do is allow mass drivers to target any body; maybe add an alternative "bombardment" drop-down menu. It might be doable with just a database edit for all I know.

Edit: I've not tried loading/unloading installations to a hostile world but if removing mass drivers can still lead to bombardment then you could still do this purposefully on a world you are attacking.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 10:09:39 AM by Llamageddon »
Currently using Aurora 1.12 - Unmodded
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2020, 10:20:30 AM »
Quote
Just seems to me when I RP it, most SF I've read implies it would be much cheaper and faster to just toss rocks once you've made the Genocide decision.

I'm not sure it still happens in C# aurora but in VB6 aurora if you removed a mass driver from a population whilst another mass driver was sending packets to that colony it would result in mass destruction as the incoming packets collided with the mass driverless body. Implementing this feature for purposeful bombardment might be an interesting solution to your suggestion of using asteroids for bombardment. All you'd really need to do is allow mass drivers to target any body; maybe add an alternative "bombardment" drop-down menu. It might be doable with just a database edit for all I know.

Edit: I've not tried loading/unloading installations to a hostile world but if removing mass drivers can still lead to bombardment then you could still do this purposefully on a world you are attacking.

You can just create an empty colony on the same body and set that as the target. Not sure what happens to the minerals you fire there.
 

Offline Ektor

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2020, 11:00:22 AM »
afaik you can only set mass driver destinations to other bodies which also have mass drivers.
 

Offline IanD (OP)

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2020, 11:22:03 AM »
One problem with Ground Combat Intelligence and Ground Attack Summary is that it does not identify which specific body they refer to. I have four different ground combats going on four different asteroids at the moment and its not easy to see which is which.


afaik you can only set mass driver destinations to other bodies which also have mass drivers.

First of all you have to get close to your target to land your mass driver that is not healthy at the moment as there are an insane number of STOs accompanying any troop concentration of approx combat strength 7500 or greater (might be less, combat strength 3300 did not have STOs). They have severely trashed my 103500 ton troop transports which lost their transported units. They will all have to be refitted with massive amounts of armour.
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Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2020, 03:14:23 PM »
One problem with Ground Combat Intelligence and Ground Attack Summary is that it does not identify which specific body they refer to. I have four different ground combats going on four different asteroids at the moment and its not easy to see which is which.


afaik you can only set mass driver destinations to other bodies which also have mass drivers.

First of all you have to get close to your target to land your mass driver that is not healthy at the moment as there are an insane number of STOs accompanying any troop concentration of approx combat strength 7500 or greater (might be less, combat strength 3300 did not have STOs). They have severely trashed my 103500 ton troop transports which lost their transported units. They will all have to be refitted with massive amounts of armour.

Unless you manage to get rid of STOs you need to use drop ships.

strategy spoiler alert
I usually orbit light bombardment forces to keep STOs busy and then using a waypoint far from the planet I order the drop ships to move in from the waypoint to the planet, make the drop and go back to the waypoint. If properly armored and fast you should minimize the losses or if lucky don't suffer any.

Offline Droll

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Re: Planetary Invasions
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2020, 03:20:32 PM »
One problem with Ground Combat Intelligence and Ground Attack Summary is that it does not identify which specific body they refer to. I have four different ground combats going on four different asteroids at the moment and its not easy to see which is which.


afaik you can only set mass driver destinations to other bodies which also have mass drivers.

First of all you have to get close to your target to land your mass driver that is not healthy at the moment as there are an insane number of STOs accompanying any troop concentration of approx combat strength 7500 or greater (might be less, combat strength 3300 did not have STOs). They have severely trashed my 103500 ton troop transports which lost their transported units. They will all have to be refitted with massive amounts of armour.

Unless you manage to get rid of STOs you need to use drop ships.

strategy spoiler alert
I usually orbit light bombardment forces to keep STOs busy and then using a waypoint far from the planet I order the drop ships to move in from the waypoint to the planet, make the drop and go back to the waypoint. If properly armored and fast you should minimize the losses or if lucky don't suffer any.

To add to this, sometimes I like to just build boat loads of smaller but military dropship designs. A combination of armour, ECM and shielding with drop pods basically reduces losses to 0.
 
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