Author Topic: fleet doctrine for a new guy  (Read 7746 times)

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Offline non sequitur (OP)

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fleet doctrine for a new guy
« on: December 09, 2015, 03:05:26 PM »
So ok. . .  I'm new to this game, but I think I have a grasp of the basics.  I can design ships, research, create and maintain colonies, etc. . .  So I'm exploring the universe and it seems wise that I should get a military going.  So here are basic questions

1.  What weapon systems do you mainly use? Looking around the forums it seems like most people have missile dominated navies.  Is a beam only fleet even feasible (missiles used for point defense not withstanding)?

2.  what kind of capital ships form the core of your fleet? Carriers? huge battleship/dreadnoughts? or do you simply just building a lot of missile cruisers?

I understand that there isn't a necessarily right way to do this, but what are you thoughts?
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2015, 03:13:43 PM »
Chances are the NPRs will have missile ships. So your beam only ships need to be able to withstand the pummeling they will receive while closing to beam ranges. It won't be pretty.

As for composition... That's personal taste. My carriers are separate from my battleship fleets. Both are attended by escorts.

Offline Bremen

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2015, 03:46:44 PM »
Missile ranges in Aurora tend to be enormously larger than beam ranges. To the point where it's virtually impossible for a beam armed fleet to close to beam range against a missile fleet before the missile fleet can burn through every missile in its magazines. Forget bringing a knife to a funfight, it's bringing a knife to an artillery duel.

On the other hand, the knife can totally win that if the artillery piece runs out of ammo. And there you come to the crux of beam fleet design; still being around when your opponent runs out of missiles. It's not easy, but it's possible. However, if you're new to the game I'd recommend you try a missile based fleet (maybe with some beam armed escorts, or secondary beam weapons on your capital ships) first; the missile combat in this game tends to be a bit more straightforward than the more specialist tactics and designs you need for a pure beam fleet.
 

Offline Jumpp

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2015, 03:48:46 PM »
1. I rely exclusively on missiles.

2. Lots of missile cruisers. My typical fleet has four 16,000-ton ships armed with size-5 antiship missiles, two or three 16,000-ton ships armed with size-1 antimissiles, and one 16,000-ton ship with token armament and a jump drive. The leader ship has big far-reaching search radars. The other ships all carry tiny sensors for use in desperate circumstances where the leader ship has been lost.

If I were to boil my fleet doctrine advice down to a few points:
1. Make all your fighting ships exactly the same size, with exactly the same engines.
2. Put only one jump drive in each fleet.
3. Make six search radars. 50-ton and 200-ton versions at resolutions 1, 20, and 200 (for detecting missiles, FACs, and large ships, respectively). Put the 50-ton versions on most of your ships. Put one set of the 200-ton jumbos with each fleet. Ships all need their own fire controls, but they can share one another's search results, so you only need one set of monster search radars.
4. Don't go nuts on fuel. 30-40b km is plenty. I take a more radical view, putting only 20b km on my warships, but this is generally viewed as eccentric behavior.
5. Always use max-size (2500-ton) engines. They're more fuel-efficient.
6. 16,000 tons is a nice size for an early-game ship.
7. Go with reduced-ROF launchers. Your enemy will have high-ROF missile defenses that are optimized for dealing with a steady stream of missiles. Such defenses can be more easily overwhelmed by an enemy that employs infrequent but extremely large volleys. Be such an enemy.
8. It's good to have better reach than your enemy. It's even better to be faster. You MUST be one or the other. Both is nice.
 
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Offline Sematary

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2015, 04:26:16 PM »
My two cents, my doctrine is almost completely different from Jumpps in every way.

I tend toward size 4 anti-ship missiles but 4-6 should be the range you aim for. Anything smaller than 4 and its hard, especially early on, to make a good anti-ship missile, anything larger than 6 and its going to be seen sooner (resolution 1 sensors see size 1-6 at the same time with larger missiles being seen farther out).

Most of my fleet uses the same engine, a 5 HS one but that is completely personal preference. It allows me to have several engines, especially on my larger ships, so as my ship gets damaged its a smaller reduction in speed per engine destroyed, which will happen. The downside of this is fuel economy (each HS of your engine saves you 1% fuel), and 5 damage will destroy my engine whereas Jumpp's engines will take 50 points of damage before being destroyed.

I don't make my ships exactly the same size, I use several different designations of ship and almost all of them are under 16,000 tons. My cruisers tend to be in the 5,000 to 10,000 range depending on what I am feeling, and generally I have at least one class smaller than that at about the 3,000 range and a battleship 15,000-25,000 with a carrier 20,000-30,000. Each ship class and to a lesser degree each designation has a specialized role to play. Again this is mostly personal preference, but that is something you will develop as you play the game.

I mostly agree with Jumpp on sensors, but again we differ. In the past you could get away pretty well with sensors with resolutions 1, 20, and 200 though putting a sensor at resolution 100 was good and larger also didn't hurt, but I have found that those are good base sensors with others being added to defeat specific enemies. With the addition of fighters for NPRs in version 7.00 you want a sensor resolution 10 for fighters. As for size you want your standard ships to have size 1 or 2 of at least your larger one if its a ASM ship or your smaller one if its an AMM ship (or both if its a mixed role ship). Generally I also make a size 5 or higher for an AWACS type ship.

As for range, that is based on the size of the systems you are finding (although 20 billion km is plenty for Sol) and how long your ships endurance is. 30-40 billion km is generally fine but there is always exceptions.

I don't go with reduced rate of fire (ROF) launchers and am of the school that you should get as many salvos out as quickly as possible. You should get rate of fire 6 as fast as you can because that puts your size one launchers (your AMMs) at firing every 5 seconds, which is the quickest it can. Now this is also one of the reasons behind my size 4 ASMs. At rate of fire 6 a size 6 launcher fires every 30 seconds, a size 5 fires every 25 seconds and a size 4 fires every 20 seconds. Now going on to the next tech size 4 and 5 stay at 20 and 25 seconds while size 6 drops down to 25 seconds so at this tech there is no point to have a size 5 missile since size 6 will have more stuff and fire just as fast. The next tech level sees size 4 launchers drop to 15 seconds, size 5 goes to 20 and I don't remember if size 6 goes to 20 or stays at 25. Either way, starting at the size 6 tech level the tech starts costing a lot more and not every level brings your launcher fire rates down but size 4 is at a respectable fire at this point.

Another thing to consider with size, beyond speed of missile, chance to hit, damage, and as we just talked about rate of fire, is magazine size. If we have a magazine that can hold 20 MSP, Jumpp can only hold 4 missiles while I can hold 5. This keeps up through the size of the missiles with my size 4 getting 5 for his every 4. As long as my speed and to-hit chance is good my higher number of missiles and greater numbers of salvos in a given time I should be able to get more damage than him. This boils down to the age old argument of is it better to hit more often for less or less often for more?

As for speed of your ships and range of your weapons, I have this to say. If you have a longer range of your weapons but your sensors and fire controls can't match that range its worthless. If you have a longer range with fire controls and sensors to match then you fire first. If you have greater speed you dictate the range in which the battle takes place. If you have a greater range and greater speed then you can keep out of their range but within your range and fire on them with impunity. The larger the difference in speed and range you have over them the bigger mistakes you can make before it starts costing you.

The biggest problem with beam weapons is your enemy WILL have greater range than you, there is no way to change that. So to even have a chance you must either surprise him, take away his range, or be able to close to the range in which your weapons work without dying. Surprise can happen either with extremely high stealth levels (pretty close to not worth it) or from jump points. Jump point defense and offense also takes away the enemy's range as most jump point battles start within 200k km which a fairly low level beam can do. Another thing that takes away his range is electronic warfare, ECMs to be exact. You must have a speed advantage or no matter how close he must be to attack you he will be able to get out of your range and stay within his. The last major problem with beams is you are going to have to weather a large number of salvos while closing the distance but you can use your offensive weapons as anti-missile weapons while you close.
 
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Offline 83athom

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 05:07:26 PM »
Take note of the different doctrines the various people here use, they are all acceptable in the eyes of the great space wizard. As for component design ratios, try to aim for something like this for size percentages;
Engine; 30%
Fuel; 10%
Weaponry 30%
Engineering ~10%
Defenses (armor, shields, pd); 15%

This is not a final end-all-be-all but rather it is a general average. Get your design to something like this then tweek it for the greatest affect.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 05:09:33 PM by 83athom »
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Offline Erik L

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 07:05:41 PM »
For every player of Aurora, there are 3 different doctrines ;)

Offline sublight

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 10:37:49 PM »
Beam only fleets are feasible for fleet combat, but require overkill point defenses. If you can shoot down every missile your enemy fires you can tank missile waves all day until their magazines run dry. I have had good results using railgun cruisers to destroy numerically superior but technologically inferior NPRs.

The biggest problem with beam fleets appears when you attempt to assault an NPR homeworld. Short ranged anti-missile fire will still outrange your weapons by several orders of magnitude, and NPRs often have orbital defenses that fire stupidly large quantities of little missiles backed by massive planetary stockpiles. Assaulting homeworlds almost always requires missiles, and while you could use specialty bombardment cruisers for the job it is usually simpler and safer to just arm your primary warships with missiles in the first place.
 

Offline linkxsc

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 01:31:03 AM »
Personally missiles are my mainstay like most, though it doesnt stop me from keeping a few beam ships around for role specific jobs.

I usually stick to only a few sizes of ship, and often the distinction between battleship and cruiser isnt 1 of size, but of role.
Eg.
Battleship sually means a 16-32kt warship armed with missile launchers, armor, magazines for a couple reloads, and just enough fuel to move around.
Meant for the line of battle, supported by armored colliers, tankers, and a similarly sized and protected scanning ship.
Cruisers are usually of similar size, but with fewer launchers (perhaps even a mix of systems, ie both offensive missiles and amms) fuel to travel alone a ways, and for spotting, often a couple of fighters with actives, or active homing missiles fired at waypoints.
Mainly for harassing, adding a presence to systems.
Carriers are same size too, and are just engines strapped to boxes of ammo, fuel, and hangars and jumping. They usually use fighters and FACs for everything else.

My destroyers are smaller ships, often with higher speed, and often the hardest hitters of my fleets as I do moronic things like load them up with tons of size 6 box launchers, extremely large single beam weapons, or tons and tons of gauss turrets to add to fleet defense, before theyre detached to go chase things down and whatnot.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 02:52:22 AM »
What doctrine you end up with is a combination of:

1.  Strategic choice on the part of the player.
2.  Limitations of your production system.
3.  Goals/Mission profile of your navy.
4.  Limitations of your technology.
5.  Expected opposition.

In practical terms you can make any design; however bizzarre, work.  No design, no matter how optimized, works all the time.  The more a design is optimized the worse it works when the situation is different then it was optimized around. 

Fundamentally, Erik has summarized it up best. 
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2015, 06:52:36 AM »
My doctrine usually ends up being; build what I can, then throw it at the enemy to see what happens. Incrementally improve designs as new tech is available, or as deficiency is detected.
It's good to have superior ships, but by the time you've finished researching all your new tech into every component a ship needs you'll find that something newer is ready to go and your new ship is already obsolete.
In the later years of ww2 the us knew the Sherman was somewhat obsolete but they kept using it because it was "good enough" especially after adding a bigger gun, it wasn't impervious but it still had enough firepower and speed / maneuverability. But most importantly it was cheap to build enmass, and to transport, and was damn reliable.
Battles can be won by having better equipment, but wars are won by logistics. Don't throw out a perfectly good ship unless it's just a death trap, the good thing about missile ships is they retain utility after installing new missiles, though poor fire control range and ship speed is something to consider.
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Offline Paul M

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 07:53:43 AM »
The NCN has been improving things based on combat experience, but they have been using the same launchers and fire controls through a lot of missile iterations.  That is the huge advantage of a missile ship, especially with higher technology.  So what MarcAFK says is the usual way you go.

With each splattering by the Wolvers the NCN ships have evolved in the direction of fighting them, the problem is usually they don't survive finding out there is something they didn't know.

"Quantity has a quality of its own."  Is also relevant.
 

Offline doulos05

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 08:14:28 AM »
The key to reusing fire controls and launchers is to build slightly outsized fire controls (so they can accommodate the longer range of your next missiles) and standard missile sizes. In my next game, I'm going to try for size 1 and 4. I did size 1, 6, and 10 this game. But I'm waiting to start again until 7.01 comes out, no sense starting a new 6.43 game with 7 here but no sense starting a new 7.0 game of a bug shows up that breaks dB compatibility
 

Offline boggo2300

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 06:17:54 PM »
For every player of Aurora, there are 3 different doctrines ;)

Bah, I only have one

pity it doesn't work :(
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Offline non sequitur (OP)

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Re: fleet doctrine for a new guy
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2015, 04:32:05 PM »
Thanks everyone for the help and advice.  So I guess I have to play around with missile design for a bit. 

so one last question and this changes topics a bit.  I have no idea how to gauge a good missile design for anti-ship.  how does this look? I'm messing around with Ion technology

Missile Size: 8 MSP  (0. 4 HS)     Warhead: 4    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 30
Speed: 16900 km/s    Engine Endurance: 27 minutes   Range: 27. 0m km
Cost Per Missile: 5. 8875
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 507%   3k km/s 150%   5k km/s 101. 4%   10k km/s 50. 7%
Materials Required:    1x Tritanium   4. 8875x Gallicite   Fuel x500