Author Topic: Maintenance Musings  (Read 1930 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Maintenance Musings
« on: June 04, 2008, 08:23:11 AM »
After an exchange of emails with Kurt, I am considering a possible change to maintenance but I want to run it by the list first to get some feedback.

Kurt made the point that its not very realistic that spares cannot be exchanged between classes, as in reality spare parts are designed for systems that may be common to different classes. Interchangeable spare parts would also allow stockpiles of spare parts to be built up instead of only being created by a minor or major overhaul.

However, there are some problems with allowing spares to be exchanged under the current rules. In reality, the spare parts required to keep a 5000 ton warship running would cost more than the spare parts for a 5000 ton freighter. The current method simulates this because the overhaul of the more expensive warship costs more than the freighter overhaul. If spare parts were interchangeable, then all spare parts would have an equal cost. At the moment spare part use is based on the size of a ship. Originally I was going to use cost but Michael Sandy pointed out a problem with that in a now-lost post and I changed to size-based. With a cost-based model, higher tech ships would cost more so the same size ship would use more spare parts and therefore need more space devoted to engineering just to keep the same level of maintenance. Of course this is all based on the current model of a set number of parts per engineering section.

So working on the assumption that interchangeable parts would be a more realistic situation and that spare part stockpiles could be built up rather than being created by an overhaul, that eventually brought me to the following ideas.

The current engineering section would be replaced by a new tech line of Engineering Spaces (or whatever name I end up with), each of which would affect the chance of failure, rather than just carrying spare parts. Higher tech engineering sections would reduce the chance of a failure, which would be based on time since overhaul and cost of the ship (not size). There could also be different types of engineering spaces based on size, cost and effectiveness. So one option may be a large, cheap version and a small, expensive version that both have the same effect for the current tech level. This would allow me to display the current failure chance on the ship display. Multiple versions would have a cumulative effect. So (making up numbers), if one engineering system had a 5% annual chance of failure per 100 BP of cost and you had two of them, that would reduce it to 2.5%. That might get complex with different types of systems on the same ship so maybe a better idea is to have a user-designed engineering system based on size, effectiveness, etc. and you add just one to a ship.

Spares would be replaced by Maintenance Supplies, which would be built by maintenance facilities using the same on/off option as fuel refineries. Maintenance Supplies could be stockpiled and collected in the same way as fuel and would be interchangeable between ships. They would be carried by engineering spaces and total supplies carried would be one of the parameters for the engineering section. They would be tracked by cost, so a ship might be carrying 100 BP worth of maintenance supplies. When a system fails, the program would decide on a specific system, rather than a general failure, and maintenance supplies would be used up equivalent to the 25% of the of that system. So if a 40 BP engine failed, then 10 BP of maintenance supplies would be used up to fix it. This maintenance cost means that a warship will likely use up maintenance supplies faster than a non-combatant.

I would also adjust damage control so a ship would use up these maintenance supplies to make repairs to its own systems, although at the standard repair cost of 50%, rather than maintenance cost of 25%. I would introduce greater variety of damage control systems and have a limit on the absolute cost of any system that would be repaired by a specific damage control system. So a warship with a normal damage control system might be able to fix a engine but maybe not the jump drive. This would then allow repair ships with extensive damage control systems capable of repairing large systems plus a lot of maintenance supplies.

These changes would also remove the need for a minor overhaul although the major overhaul would function exactly as it does now.

I may also extend the concept of engineering spaces affecting chance of failure to the point where a system removed any chance of failure, although this would be very large (perhaps 25% of the hull size) and therefore suitable for bases only.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Shinanygnz

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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 12:20:44 PM »
I like the sound of this.
Would you allow ships to work on each other?  Your fleet train could then include repair ships that can keep you running and fix up damaged systems (but not armour).  You might find yourself in a mess far from home if the enemy bagged them.
One thing that occurs around repair of battle damage... what about a crew replacements for destroyed systems that are repaired?  It probably doesn't matter for the odd system or two, but say your ship is half wrecked but is patched back together by Engineering then you could be quite a way below normal complement.

Stephen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Shinanygnz »
 

Offline Randy

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2008, 12:31:49 PM »
As I originally, stated, the failure _chance_ needs to be based on component size, while the failure _cost_  (to repair) should be based on component cost.

  Thus warships will still have the same effective failure rates as non-warships, but the cost of fixing a failure will likely be higher for a given warship since the component costs more in the first place.

  Note that repair cost is reflected in the BP of Maint Supllies (MS) required tofix a system, the more expensive a system, the more MS needed to fix it.

  If you switch back to a cost based system for determining failure _rate_, warships will become useless as they will have to commit relatively large portions of their hull space to keep at the same level of failure rates as eg. a colony ship.  If both are 100 spaces in size, but warship costs 2400BP while colony ship costs 800BP, the warship will need 3 times as much "engineering space" to have the same failure rate as the colony ship. And the cost of a failure would still be on average 3x that of the colony ship...


  (And it was I that originally pointed this out to you for the existing system. It just took others supporting what I said for it to be understood :) )
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Randy »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2008, 01:31:23 PM »
This sounds like a step in the right direction.  It's still abstract enough to not force excessive micromanagement while addressing something that's been bugging, resupply of shares.  

Some things to consider added to this:

 Engineering sections performing repairs at a reduced rate from damage control.

 Repairs not always 100% effective.  With failed repairs requiring yard time to correct.

 Crew grade effects both engineer operations and damage control operations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Charlie Beeler »
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Erik L

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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 01:42:25 PM »
What about an engineering bonus for officers? Or would that work in under factory production?

Maybe like Randy mentioned, base the failure rate on size, and the repair cost on BP. Of course, big expensive items are going to be a bitch.

Hmmm... Maybe allow (on item design) a prototype flag. This would have slightly better performance than a normal item, but more prone to failure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Erik Luken »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2008, 07:25:00 AM »
Quote from: "Shinanygnz"
I like the sound of this.
Would you allow ships to work on each other?  Your fleet train could then include repair ships that can keep you running and fix up damaged systems (but not armour).  You might find yourself in a mess far from home if the enemy bagged them.
One thing that occurs around repair of battle damage... what about a crew replacements for destroyed systems that are repaired?  It probably doesn't matter for the odd system or two, but say your ship is half wrecked but is patched back together by Engineering then you could be quite a way below normal complement.

That's a good point. At the moment, when you get repaired the game adds trained crew from the same pop, or conscript crew if you have no trained crew, and adjusts the grade according to the percentage of crew replaced, the existing crew grade and the replacement grade. I could add some rules for undermanning but I think it would be easier to allow crew replacements to be added by the repair ship (which could carry them in cryogenic transport modules). If none are available, then consript crew would be added.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2008, 07:31:43 AM »
Quote from: "Randy"
As I originally, stated, the failure _chance_ needs to be based on component size, while the failure _cost_  (to repair) should be based on component cost.

  Thus warships will still have the same effective failure rates as non-warships, but the cost of fixing a failure will likely be higher for a given warship since the component costs more in the first place.

Note that repair cost is reflected in the BP of Maint Supllies (MS) required tofix a system, the more expensive a system, the more MS needed to fix it.

  If you switch back to a cost based system for determining failure _rate_, warships will become useless as they will have to commit relatively large portions of their hull space to keep at the same level of failure rates as eg. a colony ship.  If both are 100 spaces in size, but warship costs 2400BP while colony ship costs 800BP, the warship will need 3 times as much "engineering space" to have the same failure rate as the colony ship. And the cost of a failure would still be on average 3x that of the colony ship...
I understand. However, the new engineering spaces I was suggesting would have higher tech equivalents that would reduce the chance of failure, which means a more expensive ship with the same size engineering spaces could have roughly the same failure rate as a cheaper ship with a less effective engineering system. Although, it would be complex to figure out at what rate to improve the higher tech systems so it probably would be best to stick with the existing system and I'll add more variety of engineering spaces to research without changing their basic effectiveness

Quote
 (And it was I that originally pointed this out to you for the existing system. It just took others supporting what I said for it to be understood :)

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2008, 07:34:49 AM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
This sounds like a step in the right direction.  It's still abstract enough to not force excessive micromanagement while addressing something that's been bugging, resupply of shares.  

Some things to consider added to this:

 Engineering sections performing repairs at a reduced rate from damage control.
Yes, that's a good idea. I think I might change the damage control code so that a ship has an overall rate of self-repair plus a max cost per item. The damage control and engineering spaces could both contribute to those factors.

Quote
Repairs not always 100% effective.  With failed repairs requiring yard time to correct.
Do you mean that a system might use up supplies as if it was fixed yet yet still remain damaged?

Quote
Crew grade effects both engineer operations and damage control operations.

Crew grade affects the chance of system failure at the moment. I am not sure about damage control but it seems like a good idea to add it.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2008, 07:41:29 AM »
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
What about an engineering bonus for officers? Or would that work in under factory production?
Something I have been considering but I am worried it is a complexity step too far, is to allow other officers on a ship beside captains. So a ship could have a tactical officer, engineer, helmsman, etc. giving the ship bonuses to attack rolls, repairs, evasion, etc. This would require some new bonuses. They would have to be lower ranked that the captain and would leave the ship if they reached the same rank. Is that over the top? I would probably have to redesign the commander window because the massive number of possible assignments would slow it down too much.

Quote
Maybe like Randy mentioned, base the failure rate on size, and the repair cost on BP. Of course, big expensive items are going to be a bitch.
Yes, I will be sticking with the current failure rate based on size.

Quote
Hmmm... Maybe allow (on item design) a prototype flag. This would have slightly better performance than a normal item, but more prone to failure.

Very interesting idea. This could simply be a box on the design window which boosts some characteristic but could either be more prone to failure generally or perhaps when it is used. So you could design a better beam weapon that may fail when fired :)

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Erik L

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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2008, 09:09:25 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
What about an engineering bonus for officers? Or would that work in under factory production?
Something I have been considering but I am worried it is a complexity step too far, is to allow other officers on a ship beside captains. So a ship could have a tactical officer, engineer, helmsman, etc. giving the ship bonuses to attack rolls, repairs, evasion, etc. This would require some new bonuses. They would have to be lower ranked that the captain and would leave the ship if they reached the same rank. Is that over the top? I would probably have to redesign the commander window because the massive number of possible assignments would slow it down too much.
Treat it sort of like the staff commands. But I think the type of ship should affect the officer slots that are present. A freighter doesn't really need a tacco. So you've got Captain, Tac Officer, Engineer, Helmsman. Will a combat hit to the bridge kill any of them? Or have a chance? If this were the case, I'd say bridge for the captian, tac officer, and helmsman, and DC for the engineer. If you do have officers killable by damage without a total ship kill, you'll need to know who is XO. Probably just the next highest ranked officer. Hmm. Science officer for a ship with geo/grav scanners. Have the science officer's survey rating be used instead of the captain's. Another possible is a commo officer, but I really don't see how to use one. Speed in order acknowledgement? That's covered by training I think.

With a 4x jump in the number of assignment slots, you might want to consider increasing the initial officer base too.
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote
Hmmm... Maybe allow (on item design) a prototype flag. This would have slightly better performance than a normal item, but more prone to failure.
Very interesting idea. This could simply be a box on the design window which boosts some characteristic but could either be more prone to failure generally or perhaps when it is used. So you could design a better beam weapon that may fail when fired ;)

Though actually, it should be repairable. Most likely for a higher cost.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Erik Luken »
 

Offline Erik L

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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2008, 09:11:53 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote
Repairs not always 100% effective.  With failed repairs requiring yard time to correct.
Do you mean that a system might use up supplies as if it was fixed yet yet still remain damaged?
Steve


Maybe a field repaired item has a small chance to fail on use. In the 1-5% range, maybe depending on the quality of the DC. Base DC = 5%, Improved = 3%, etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Erik Luken »
 

Offline Kurt

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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2008, 12:30:55 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
What about an engineering bonus for officers? Or would that work in under factory production?
Something I have been considering but I am worried it is a complexity step too far, is to allow other officers on a ship beside captains. So a ship could have a tactical officer, engineer, helmsman, etc. giving the ship bonuses to attack rolls, repairs, evasion, etc. This would require some new bonuses. They would have to be lower ranked that the captain and would leave the ship if they reached the same rank. Is that over the top? I would probably have to redesign the commander window because the massive number of possible assignments would slow it down too much.


I have thought about this many times.  It bothers me that I have all of those junior officers sitting around, doing nothing.  In reality, they would be assigned as junior staff officers, or as junior or mid-level officers on ships.  Each ship would have what amounts to its own staff positions.  

The reason I haven't brought it up is that while it would increase the "reality factor", it would add a lot of complexity.  Although, now that I think about it, with the auto-assign function, would it really add that much complexity or micro-managing for the player?

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Erik L

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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2008, 02:45:55 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
What about an engineering bonus for officers? Or would that work in under factory production?
Something I have been considering but I am worried it is a complexity step too far, is to allow other officers on a ship beside captains. So a ship could have a tactical officer, engineer, helmsman, etc. giving the ship bonuses to attack rolls, repairs, evasion, etc. This would require some new bonuses. They would have to be lower ranked that the captain and would leave the ship if they reached the same rank. Is that over the top? I would probably have to redesign the commander window because the massive number of possible assignments would slow it down too much.

I have thought about this many times.  It bothers me that I have all of those junior officers sitting around, doing nothing.  In reality, they would be assigned as junior staff officers, or as junior or mid-level officers on ships.  Each ship would have what amounts to its own staff positions.  

The reason I haven't brought it up is that while it would increase the "reality factor", it would add a lot of complexity.  Although, now that I think about it, with the auto-assign function, would it really add that much complexity or micro-managing for the player?

Kurt


With auto-assign, I don't think it would add much complexity. But like Steve said, the commander screen will slow down a lot. We're talking a minimum 4x the number of berths. Maybe split the staff positions out into a separate screen? Have only command slots showing on the current window, and put Fleet staff and ship junior officers on another screen?

One thing I'd like to see in addition to minimum rank for a ship class is a maximum rank. An admiral should not be puttering around in a scout ship just because he's got a good training score, or shoved into a freighter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Erik Luken »