Author Topic: Theban Empire  (Read 38650 times)

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Offline Paul M

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #120 on: August 19, 2014, 06:59:51 AM »
The WP in Elvorfilas to the Cervii homesystem had been the scene of a desperate defence by the Drakes.  Currently orbiting the WP though were the High Council fleet of the Drake's Military Junta and TF10 of the SCN's 1st Fleet.  Three layers of mines and over 100 buoys surrounded the WP.  The number of cruiser sized bases was now 6, and three battlecruiser sized bases were under assembly.  One system over in Thruvar the assault forces of the Drakes and SCN were assembled.  The last reinforcements: 6 Plaga class armed pinance motherships had arrived last month.  The four fleets of the other other Warlords were also available in Thruvar.  A number of issues had slowed the preparations for the assault.  The Drakes had decided to wait until the Dreadnaught was available before building up their assault fleet deeming the Battleship too small for the task.  This had meant that the heavy ships for the assault fleet had needed to be built from scratch in Angband.  Currently the first 6 were available while a further 12 were in various stages of construction.  The SCN had had to active and then refit its ships to reinforce TF10 to full war strength.  The SCNs Assault Fleet had also needed re-activation and the number of Battleships had been too low, though 9 were currently available with 4 more under construction and 5 more authorised.  Technological advances had also occured leaving the ships of TF10 one generation behind the current standard for the SCN.  The SCN also faced 3 other active threat spots which were drawing down on the ships of 2nd and 3rd Fleets. 

At this point the combined Confederation Fleet was 15 Assault Battleships, 18 Fleet Battleships, 21 Battlecruisers, 27 Assault Cruisers, 12 Heavy Cruisers, 10 Light Cruisers, 6 Armed Pinance Motherships each with 9 pinances, 33 Destroyers plus support ships.   

The WP into the Cervii homesystem was the largest problem facing the planning staffs of the Confederation fleet.  The WP was closed on the Cervii homesystem side, plus only ships of Battleship size or smaller could transit it.  It was clear that given the time between the Cervii attack/war declaration and now that extensive minefields could be expected.  The staff estimated that it was not unreasonable to expect there to be up to 300 patterns of mines on the WP itself.  The fact that the ships would arrive in the middle of them, while their drive field was still transit shocked would help as the mines guidance packages tend to find it hard to determine the ships location and often detonate early due to the proximity sensors being fooled by the transit effect.  Still the mines will be hard targets for point defences and so the Drake ships with their trained crews would transit first.  Battleships would draw down considerable mine strength expended against them.  There was no way to avoid the fact that the most likely scenario was the total loss of the first wave.  The most optimistic scenario had the CAAs surviviing.  The real question was what defences the enemy had on the WP.  Here no one knew what to expect.  Enough time had passed for the construction of bases to support the minefields and buoys.  Pinance scouting was considered relatively pointless since the pinance would be attacked on tranist by the minefield and that would reveal its existance to the CAP or other defensive fire.

That left simply making a try at the assault, but aborting to effectively a recon in force if the circumstances were against a success.  The plan had been updated over the past several months but the basics had not changed significantly.  The Drake Assault force would lead the way with 3 waves, this would be followed by the SCNs Assault Fleet with 4 transit waves.  Depending on the situation the assault would either terminate at the 4th transit wave or after the assault ships were through the ships of TF10 would start their transit.  Assuming the immediate WP defences had been breached the Drake's High Council Fleet would transit through after for the exploitation phase of the battle.

But all this depended on success of breaching the initial minefields so the first assault waves were instructed to launch courier drones on arrival.  Depending on if Courier Drones were detected or not would determine if the assault would be aborted.  Assuming total loss of the first wave to the mines it would mean that the 4th wave would be committed before a halt based on the information of the second waves drones.  However, without more information on the defences the Drakes and their SCN allies were fighting blind.  As much as no one liked the thought of 9 BBAs, and 15 CAAs lost for likely only superficial damage to the enemy it was the most viable way to ensure information got back.  If things on the other hand went better than expected the Confederation fleet could then force the warp point and hopefully gain at least partial control of the system. 

A further issue for both the Drakes as well as Shanirian Confederation was the economic cost of the war.  The maintenance budgets of each were now essentially equal to their internal tax base, this seriously hampered both economic expansion as well as new construction as only trade funds were available for these tasks.  Political pressure from the Assembly was mounting to end the war and return the fleet to a peace time stance.  The Drakes wanted a resolution as Elvorfilas beyond being a valuable nexus system with, for them, habitable worlds also was their last system with unexplored warp points.  Securing it was vital to their future.  The economic pressure, the political pressure and the fact that the assault forces were at a minimally acceptable level ensured the attack would go in this month.

Month 212, Day 15, 083000

Gen Angekelbauch, High Councilor of the Urloki Council, was at his Balthasil II's CIC.  The holo tank was filled with a close range view of the warp point leading to the Cervii home system.  Lanes through the mine fields blinked green for the inbound assault ships of the assault fleets of both the Urloki and the SCN.  A "window" on the tank showed Sgt Esodor, commander of the Assault Fleet in his command ships CIC.  The leading group of 3 Trithaas BBAs and 3 Bathasil II CAA was nearing the transit point, a SCN pinance pacing them.  "Good luck Sergent, may your claws sink deep."  The Urloki's reptillian nature made facial expressions muted and the vaccsuits visor made the small signs one could read hard to see but the teeth were clearly visible.  "We strike from the sky, General."  Sgt Esodor replied.  He would go in the 3rd wave with a force of 6 CAAs.

Angekelbauch keyed another window contacting Legatus Bester of the SCNs 1st Fleet on his command ship.  "Your ships are ready Legatus?"  The human noded, "We shall see which way the cookie crumbles on this one.  We have a lot of ships, if we can clear the arrival space...we should win."  The tension on the Shanirians body was clear to the Urloki commander, which he understood.  The first 3 waves would be Urloki but the next 11 were Shanirian.   Both commanders understood that the only thing worse than winning a battle like this might turn out to be is breaking one off as that usually means dispoportionatly high losses to the attacker.

Angekelbauch, keyed his communicator.  "All ships. This is command.  Transit is authorised, time 0835.  Mark." 

Cervii Home System Warp Point 083500

Suddenly a Trithaas BBA appears on the warp point, the swarms of mines engage it, its crews work to stop the mines that don't detonate too far away or pointing in the wrong direction but their shields are knocked flat and a good part of their armour belt is spalled away.  The ship shudders but survives intact, rather to the surpise of the crew.  Half the mines on the warp point are now gone.  "Sir! CONTACTS ahead..."  "Great EGG!  Contacks astern!"  "All stop."  "Targeting lock smallest target."  "Egg sucker...that is...huge!"  Another Trithaas BBA appears its shields flashing but not failing as mines strike it.  Another Trithaas BBA and only minor shield damage as the mines are depleted.  The three Balthasil II CAAs flash into the system their shields largely untouched by the few remaining mines.  The SCNs pinance transits.

Directly ahead of the 6 Urloki ships were 6 massive bases and 3 smaller ones at 0.75 LS.  Astern of them was a similar force.  These bases were 50% larger than the Urloki's DN class of ships, around twice as large as their battlecruiser sized long range missile bases.  At 4.5 LS were a datagroup of DNs.  50 Buoys were present not far from the warp point itself.  The assumption was that a mine belt surounded the Urloki ships.  "Fire! Launch all courier drones!" 

Elvorfilas Command Ship Confederate Fleet 083530

"Single Drone transit, first wave! Downloading information." Thee more Trithaas BBA and three Balthasil II CAAs transit in the opposite direction to the outbound drone.

Elvorfilas Command Ship Conferate Fleet 083600

"General! Drone transmitting the following message: ABORT! ABORT! ABORT!"  Angkelbauch hit the connect to the SCNs Assault Fleet Commander.  "Tribune Garriboldi, abort the transit!"  His eyes focused on the plot as the lead Principii BBA closed on to the warp point and then with an almost disturbing abruptness stopped dead some thousands of kilometers from the horizon of the warp point.  Nothing could be done to have stopped the 6 Balthasil II's including Sgt Esodor's command ship and the lone SCN pinance of the third transit wave.

Elvorfilas Command Ship Confederate Fleet 083700

Neither drones, ships or a pinance had appeared.  Six Trithaas battleships and twelve Balthasil II cruisers had paid the price for the information on the one drone.  The bases apparently mounted massive laser and energy beam batteries.  One base had been, from the data on the drone, able to cripple a battleship with laser fire and gut a cruiser with its energy beam batteries.  The overload dampners on the battleships had done the job they were intended and had saved the battleships from being targets of the energy weapons, but the laser fire had been extremely potent.  This presented the Urloki and SCN with a triple threat of mines, energy weapons, and laser weapons.  The latter were mutually exclusive but complicated the work of naval engineering.  As well the bases firepower meant that a transiting wave could be destroyed or crippled by a single datagroup of bases firing.  This would prevent the gradual accumulation of ships necessary to successfully force the warp point.  Enough bases also existed that one could expect at least 4 to reach action stations on the intial transit turn, and by the fourth or fifth transit all bases likely would be active.  At that point sufficient firepower exists to destroy even 6 battleships.  The SCN was familier with this sort of base from their Squid allies but had always deemed it a foolish approach, apparently it is less foolish when coupled with sufficient numbers of weapons.

Ship designs used in the attack:
Urloki Ships

BALTHASIL II class CAA     AM    12 XO Racks    60 Hull    TL 6
[2] S0x8Aix10ZH(BbS)Q(II)(II)Xr(II)TDF(II)M2DF!1(II)DC(CIC)(BbS)QLh?1DcF(II) [6]
60 RCP  40 MCP       Trg:3  Bmp +2  Tem -1        Cost =  1170/ 175.5
HTK 51    S0x8  Aix10  Dcx1  Dx3  Fx3  Tx1 
Notes:  the first assault ship of the Urloki fleet.  It was double purposed as a comand ship, and its lack of nuclear armament was viewed as a net positive benefit.  The design came about after the first of a series of war games between the SCN and the Urloki fleets demonstrated the vulurabilities of their standard ship design.

TRITHAAS class BBA     AM    20 XO Racks    100 Hull    TL 7
[3]S0x22Aix20ZHO(III)OQO?1(III)O(III)O(III)TiF!1FDzDcFWaFWa!1DzDcF(BbS)DzDcM5XrCLhQWaMg(III)[5]
100 RCP       Trg:6  Bmp +2  Tem -1        Cost =  2348/ 352.2
HTK 90    S0x22  Aix20  Dzx3  Dcx3  Fx5  Wax3  Tix1  Mgx1 
90x SM, 14x CAM (Mg), 6x EDM (Mg)
Note:  An emergency assault ship purpose built for the Cervii war.  Overload dampners were installed to enable it to survive expected IDEW-E fire and to blunt by burn out a single heavy E attack.

Shanirian Ships

HASTATI MOD 1 class CAA     AM    12 XO Racks    60 Hull    TL 6
[2] S0x10Aix16ZH(II)Q(II)(II)PbGGM2GDGD(BbS)(II)CDXrLhQGMgD(II)(II) [6]
60 RCP  40 MCP       Trg:3        Cost =  1036/ 155.4
HTK 58    S0x10  Aix16  Dx4  Gx5  Mgx1 
80x GM, 3x CM, 6x CAM (Mg), 4x EDM (Mg)
Notes:  original assault ship of the SCN.  Its gun weapons can fire either anti-ship or anti-mine missiles.  The anti-mine missiles were developed too late for deployment in this attack.

PRINCIPII class BBA     AM    20 XO Racks    100 Hull    TL 7
[3] S0x38Aix30ZH(BbM)(III)?1(III)DGDQDGD(III)TiDGDMgDGDM3GMg!1DXrCLhQD(III)(III) [5]
100 RCP       Trg:4  Bmp +2  Tem -1        Cost =  2049/ 307.4
HTK 112   S0x38  Aix30  Dx10  Gx5  Tix1  Mgx2 
140x GM, 10x CM, 18x CAM (Mg), 8x EDM (Mg)
Notes:  the SCNs heavy assault ship.  It carries the same weapon package as the Hastati but with significantly more passives.

[ooc]I have looked and so far excluding Thebes (solved by cheating the rules) and the Black Hole of Alpha C in ISW IV I've not seen any assaults on a closed WP and especially one with an 100 HS limit.  Given the economy in our game 12 BS5 is a hellish amount of firepower to confront.  The Drakes normally don't use armour or shields, which is why their ships are so light on passives.  The size limit is a killer as the BBAs don't have a lot of room for passives.  A simultaneous transit is in my view given the shock of the TFN when they saw it and the fact they had fought ISW1-3 without anyone using it not something either race would consider.  There is huge difference to running the risk of death and playing odds with being reduced to subatomic particles.  A good fraction of the crews would have survived the attack.  Fighters are a possibility as Vs are not affected by E beams...but with 3-4 bases active the first turn it is likely the ships will be lasered down.  And that doesn't include consideration of the minefield they would arrive in.  At the moment the conventional approach seems decidedly blocked...so some out of the box thinking is required.[/ooc]
 

Offline Starslayer_D (OP)

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2014, 02:02:41 AM »
[ooc]A few surprises there for both sides. This is the WP where the Cervii lost 3 SD squeezing them through. They had 6 of those monster bases initially, and were building 6 more when the Uroloki delivered their war starting insult. I must admidt I was sceptical of the split weapon designs myself. Also, I didn't like the idea of putting them at 1 to the WP... even if more powerfull, you also take a lot more damage in return. And 3 is a good range for E and Lx. They had 10 E and 12 Lx, and actually one base suffered a reboot Dec result in round 1. Well, and *blush* my ships standing by for a counterattack, purpose build, suffered from a distinctive lack of ammo. So..  had to delay to ammo them up. (not that I esxpect the counter to work any better if I'm honest).

But BS5 seem to be truly gruesome foes in our campaign. Luckely not many have them deployed. I should write up a battle I had the turn before, but I was more concerned getting it done than take notes, took me three full days as it was. The Undines/Cartel suffered from a further advance of the red fleet. Undines got some lucky scan results, payed with the part of the fleet which remained after the ship with the scan results departed. Helium now lies defenseless, the hub and entry system of their western expanses.[/ooc]
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2014, 03:52:04 AM »
[ooc]I did a look through Crusade last night and the TFN never faced serious opposition until it had SBMHAWK and anti-matter.  At Lorilee the bases were BS3 and BS4, and the x-ray laser armed ones were only BS3.  In game it is a case where it is the sum of the parts that is the real show stopper.  Basically ships have to survive the intial turn of transit still capable of fighting in the second...because odds on all the bases will be fully active by no later than turn 5.  This one needs a bit of out of the box thinking at the end of the day...or the development of the SBMHAWK, which might come first.[/ooc]
 

Offline MWadwell

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2014, 07:30:40 AM »
[ooc] This one needs a bit of out of the box thinking at the end of the day...or the development of the SBMHAWK, which might come first.[/ooc]

ast2/pn2? - But SBMHAWK's would come first....

Massively armored BBA's with hangars? At least this is a TL lower then SBMHAWK's, but by the time TL8 is reached, there are going to be even more BS5's present.....


With such a small WP, it's going to be difficult to force!
Later,
Matt
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2014, 09:54:59 AM »
The Urloki are nearing TL8 so hanger bays and fighters are a possibility, though how many fighters you could stick on a BBA armoured sufficiently to survive is a good question.  The Shanirians can't use fighters as they use a different drive system (basically telekinetics) so they have a minimum crew requirement.  Apn the Shanirians have, but a BBA carrying Apn through will bring even fewer through.  I have a few thoughts on how to maybe do this, but I have to do a bit of spreadsheet work to see how long they may survive in combat. 

The Shanirians are researching TL9 so SBMHAWK still might become available before other options materize.  But even so it would require a lot of SBMHAWK to kill 12 BS5, given you have to get out of a mine field...so 15% interpenentration, 1% lost to mines on entry, 10%+10%+10% for moving out of the mine belt (assuming it is one layer) so this is 30-40% losses right there.  Guess at say 120 HTK per base.  That is 20 SBMHAWKs, double that to account for misses and point defence.  40 SBMHAWKs*12=480*2 (for transit/move losses) = ~1000 SBMHAWKs.  Not exactly easy to come by. 

But this incident does go to show that no matter how crazy a design is, generally speaking there is always a few instances where it works really well.  Energy beams and x-ray lasers are a concept that for the most part makes absolutely no sense, works poorly with missiles and causes major headaches for the user.  But in this case they work nicely together in making it hard to design a ship that can easily survive both weapon packages.

This is the second 100 HS warp point that has caused me difficulties.  I also have to keep in mind that the Cervii use plasma torpedoes and have a fleet so while the bases are the most critical aspect of the defence, they are but one part of the chain.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #125 on: August 21, 2014, 03:38:10 AM »
Could have just edited this into the above reply...

The fighters on a BBA(V) look to be sucessful if one has fL, with fR I think I can assume the first assault wave gets the bulk of its fighters off.  15 Squadrons of fR equipped F0 should be able to blast down 3 bases.  The problem is:
Round 1: 5 BBA(V) enter; 4 bases activate and fire, 5 BBA(V) survive with V's intact.
Round 2: 5 BBA(V) launch 15 SQN F0(fR), 5 BBA(V) enter, 4 more bases activate (8 total), 8 bases fire on the fresh 5 BBA(V)--here it is tricky my feeling is that only 2 BBA(V) survive that, 3 Bases are destroyed.
Round 3: 2 BBA(V) launch 6 SQN F0(fR), 5 BBA(V) enter, 3 more bases activate (8 total), 8 bases fire on the fresh 5 BBA(V)--2 BBA(V) survive, 1 Base destroyed
Round 4 2 BBA(V) luanch 6 SQN F0(fR), 1 base activates (8 total), 1 base is damaged or destroyed.

This is by more feel than detail here but that uses 20 BBA(V) and 60 SQN of F0 and takes out 4-6 bases (depends a lot on how much damage the CAMs do as that reduces the fighters necessary to kill a base).  This excludes the defending fleet except for use as cleaning out crippled BBA(V) trying to exit the system or buoys.  Round 4 fighter losses might also be high as they have to face the point defence plus beams of the bases (and the Lx can mutually support due to its range).

So far as I can see 3 technologies would allow for the assault to have a reasonable chance:  anti-laser armour, fL, or SBMHAWK.   15 fL armed squadrons could devestate those bases...my guess is they have Dc for point defence and the fighters can use some inverted varient of the "1 LS circle of death" to burn the bases down.  Even the smaller waves of reinforcing fighters then would pose a credible threat. 

This is the problem with fL.  It is overpowered at TL9 and TL10.  At TL11 anti-laser armour reduces it to minimal effectiveness.  But if you restrict it to a single anti-shipping shot (which is not unreasonable) then it is useless in a WP assault situation as fighters then have only single use weapons.  In our game Starslayer and I have been discussing this back and forth.  For fighters to be useful in assault situations (or for races such as the Rigillians from ISW3 to be viable) the fighters need to be able to shoot more than once.  At least that is my view on the matter.  Possibly allowing fL 3 anti-shipping shots would make them useful rather than simply overpowered.  Apn with 4 fL aren't anything to sneeze at either.

Simulatenous transit would change this all, but frankly that is a tactic that should be restricted to desperation, the bugs or small craft waves.  I'm seeing a pretty empty box of original ideas.  I can come up with asault designs that last 2 rounds but it is hard to see how I can accumulate ships on the WP after round 3 and without that the attack dies from straight forward firepower.

In ISW4 a single WP link like this would have brought the bug advance to a crashing stop.  The Shanirian Confederation has no way to get from the home world to the frontier with anything larger than a BB.  I have 6 or 7 100 HS limiting WPs in total and so far no way to by pass them.  That is why there are no DNs in the above order of battle (the Drakes have 2 active DNs and a third is building).  This is also true for another of the confederation members (the Squids have a 100 HS WP out of their homeworld that leads to 95% of their systems).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 03:47:20 PM by Paul M »
 

Offline Starslayer_D (OP)

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #126 on: August 21, 2014, 04:39:02 AM »
It could be interresting. I don't remember what dpoint defense the bases have, but Lx can be targetted upon fighters like all other lasers. Did you include a possible CAM armement of the bases in your calculation? They had them but never bothered to fire them, as ships went pop nicely without.
I did discover anotehr glaring weakness in the Cervii assault fleet, one whicha ctually ahd been present allready when they last tried. Fleet back to yard for refit....

(last time, L armed corvettes at range 12 made a totall fool out of E-armed BC sitting hedged in by a minefield. Doh...)
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #127 on: August 21, 2014, 05:27:56 AM »
I didn't expressly calcuate with CAM but I figured they would be present.  The issue at the end of the day is that on average 4 bases are active turn 1, and 8 on turn 2.  If on turn 2 8 bases have enough fire power to destroy the surviving ships of the first two transit waves the assault fails, it simply becomes defeat in detail from that point onwards.  It is hard to see how that isn't the case in this situation.

The Drake exploration vessels had F not L.  But it was F fire from elite crews outside of the range of your Es that did you in.  Both exploration fleets were present by luck at that point and that was around 30 CTs.  Plus some long range missile support from the CA and DDs plus the fire from the bases.
 

Offline Starslayer_D (OP)

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #128 on: August 21, 2014, 05:38:07 AM »
Month 211, Day 3 Helium System of the Undine Conglomerate

It had not been a good day, Enforcer Bundy thought, his gaze drifting over the wreckage surrounding the warp point in the display before him, as he wrestled with the disappointment in his heart. After the undines had activated the mutual defense pact with his government, the Cannon Cartel had responded swiftly and dispatched a powerfull force of newly refitted ships to their aid. Six battlecruisers, six cruisers, six destroyers and six corvettes sure should help them with containing the red ships.

Three months ago a return of their fleet to the Tungsten System was detected. A plan to use the combined fleet in a deep space engagement, hopefully overwhelming them with numbers this time was discarded as the sheer number of hostile ships was detected. Six dreadnaughts, twelve battleships, six battle cruisers and eighteen smaller cruisers made the possible engagement doubtfully, given how the last engagement had lead to the total destruction of the undine fleet by a force half the size. Thus, the warp point between Helium and Tungsten was invested by the combined fleets, adding in a fleet by the Sri Raj, spacefaring felinoids allied with both governments. Then they settled in to wait, but nothing happened. The Sri Raj fleet had to withdraw, as resources in Helium when not sufficient to supply all theships assembled, and a part of the undine fleet retreated as well, to allay the situation and to allow refits with superior technologies currently under development.

Still, the Undines had twenty-six battlecruisers, eighteen cruisers and several frigates plus corvettes guarding the warp point, behind a minefield. The small vessels where clustered, by navy, just a light second from the warp point except the cartell corvettes who stayed further away. The six Cartell BC stayed at four and a half light seconds, and the six undine BC with capital launchers and their six escort BC stayed at six ls. The remaining battlecruisers and cruisers divided into groups and circled the warp point at one and half light seconds. The three carriers of the Cartell stayed back outside the range of capital missiles, their small complement of fighters embarked.  
Suddenly the warp point flickered and in quick succession six battleships appeared from the emptiness of space. The enigmous not quite  small craft detached from external racks dotting their flanks, and 71 pinnaces followed on the heels of the battle ships, only to loose some of their numbers to interpenetrations. 'What madness was this? No one sane transited simultaneously.'' The first battleship fired, gutting one of the cartell destroyers immediately. One of his brethren returned fire, only to see half his plasma packed swatted out of space. The other four never came to active station before the laser fire from the battleships crippled them and killed a corvette. Then the 'gun boats' started to salvo small volleys of missiles from their ordinance racks, slowly whittling down thevarious corvettes and the wrecked destroyers, until their last missiles where spend against against ta  frigate. Meanwhile, the undine and cartell ships slowly whittled down a battleship, but slow activation and strong point defense suites slowed down the progress. Still, they killed one of the huge ships and stripped the shields from another before they finished turning and escaped through the warp point, leaving the defenders with all the small crafts, pinnaces and a slightly befuddled expression after less than a minute. But it was not over. Seventy two gunboats and 64 pinnaces surged foreward through the minefield in a dense group, loosing some of their numbers but expending many of the mines, over the wrecks of the destroyers and split apart to chase down the cartell cruisers and a group of undine battlecruisers, and one of undine cruisers. As most of them where still slowly gaining speed, the chase was short and ended with them swarmed in close quarters by the small craft. The Cartell cruisers tried to respond, but two squadron of gun boats were enough to blow each into glowing clouds of incandescent gas while their capital point defenses and plasma guns clawed allmost inefficiently at their attackers. Nor did the undine cruisers fare much better, the pinnaces they encountered where armed as well, and like in the last battle proved very effective at killing. Only half of them expended their munitions before they too had no further targets, loosing twenty to the return fire. Only the undine battlecruisers fared better, destroying the gun boats send against them for the loss of three of their own. Then the remaining small craft turned about and surged back through the tear in the minefields and back through the warp point, leaving the field to the flabbergasted defenders. A minute of combat had swatted three battlecruisers, twelve cruisers, six destroyers, 2 frigates and 9 corvettes from space, trading them for one battleship and some small crafts.
But the undines had some consolidating reasons to celebrate, they had gotten good scans on some of the technologies used, and dispatched two damaged battlecruisers to carry the information homewards. And this was where Enforcer Bundy was not a happy man. His cruisers and destroyers had been wrecked, and his battle cruisers had been unable to gain any data as by some incomprehensible decision by the design bureau they were not equipped with long range scanners, unlike the now slowly dissolving cruisers.

The defenders reorganised, with the close range cruisers and battle cruisers settling into an orbit at three light seconds to prevent any further rapid swarming, and settled down to wait.

Forty hours later, the warp point flickered again....
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 08:24:43 AM by Starslayer_D »
 

Offline MWadwell

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #129 on: August 21, 2014, 07:37:07 PM »
Could have just edited this into the above reply...

The fighters on a BBA(V) look to be sucessful if one has fL, with fR I think I can assume the first assault wave gets the bulk of its fighters off.  15 Squadrons of fR equipped F0 should be able to blast down 3 bases.  The problem is:
Round 1: 5 BBA(V) enter; 4 bases activate and fire, 5 BBA(V) survive with V's intact.
Round 2: 5 BBA(V) launch 15 SQN F0(fR), 5 BBA(V) enter, 4 more bases activate (8 total), 8 bases fire on the fresh 5 BBA(V)--here it is tricky my feeling is that only 2 BBA(V) survive that, 3 Bases are destroyed.
Round 3: 2 BBA(V) launch 6 SQN F0(fR), 5 BBA(V) enter, 3 more bases activate (8 total), 8 bases fire on the fresh 5 BBA(V)--2 BBA(V) survive, 1 Base destroyed
Round 4 2 BBA(V) luanch 6 SQN F0(fR), 1 base activates (8 total), 1 base is damaged or destroyed.

This is by more feel than detail here but that uses 20 BBA(V) and 60 SQN of F0 and takes out 4-6 bases (depends a lot on how much damage the CAMs do as that reduces the fighters necessary to kill a base).
 

(SNIP)

Looking at it, the most effective wave was the first one - where you trade 5 BBA(V) for 3 bases.

So "gaming the system", the best way to do this would to try for single wave probes every day or so, sacrificing the fighters of each wave. I.e. the wave of 5 BBA(V) transit in, and start turning around. On turn 2, they launch, and then transit out - leaving the fighters behind to kill 3 BS's, before they die from lack of life support.

Doing this a couple of times, would result in all of the BS's being destroyed.


Another option, is to simultransit the apn by themselves (I can't remember of apn are warp capable though).

Quote
This is the problem with fL.  It is overpowered at TL9 and TL10.  At TL11 anti-laser armour reduces it to minimal effectiveness.  But if you restrict it to a single anti-shipping shot (which is not unreasonable) then it is useless in a WP assault situation as fighters then have only single use weapons.  In our game Starslayer and I have been discussing this back and forth.  For fighters to be useful in assault situations (or for races such as the Rigillians from ISW3 to be viable) the fighters need to be able to shoot more than once.  At least that is my view on the matter.  Possibly allowing fL 3 anti-shipping shots would make them useful rather than simply overpowered.  Apn with 4 fL aren't anything to sneeze at either.

There are a couple of options:
1) make it (as you mention above) fire only 2 or 3 shots before it has to be re-armed.
2) make it fire every second or third turn (as ship mounted primaries do).
3) allow it to fire every turn, but with a to-hit penalty (to reduce it's effectiveness).

Later,
Matt
 

Offline Starslayer_D (OP)

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2014, 01:56:15 AM »
I'd so love to be a fighter pilot in your empire, Mathew. ;)
One way or another, this WP will eat a lot of ships if tried to be broken with ships ina  conventional way. A good lesson to learn for our campaign.
APN are warp capable, which makes them kind of guided SBMHAWKS if you are able to simultransit them in. Two of the agressive NPRs in the campaign have used them this way. Other races more prefer to swarm pods through.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #131 on: August 22, 2014, 03:08:14 AM »
Matt, you are correct.  I tend to design plans that pass the "would be acceptable if those were real people" test.  Also kamakizi-ing the fighters into the bases had crossed my mind.  That takes them out in the movement phase and removes the chance for mutual support.  Also each fR equipped F0 does 5 pts of damage if my memory is correct.  Another option would be real suicide shuttles (with cargo holds loaded with nuclear bombs).  But...then I would need to make RM or RD checks per attack...well even in your case using the BBA(V) I'd need those since it is suicide mission.

I could also use a tunner design and get 6 BBA(V) through making it more likely that I get 15 SQN off.  That also gives me about 3 lots of CAMs from the BBA(V) which helps the fighters out.  I could also launch 6 ast and have them make a run for it and then fighters could rendevous and transfer to the ast (which has more lifesupport) and could reasonably carry full loads of extra lifesupport in their cargo bay. Hmmmm....it also puts the BBA(V)s up against fewer and fewer active bases, 4-5 on the first attack, 3-4 on the second attack, 2-3 on the 3rd attack, and 1 or so on the 4th attack which would be possible to use any surviving BBA(V) plus convetional assault ships.  But this is theoretical anyway as the Drakes haven't developed fighter.

Apn simultanous transit, requires again a check but the losses from the mines would be rather stiff...about 40% of the Apn would be lost before they were able to attack.  (15% interpenteration, 1% on transit from mine attacks, then 10%+10% for leaving and entering a mine hex, and then 10% for leaving the mine hex (assuming only a single layer).  At say 20 Apn with 4 fR to kill a base, and say 20 Apn lost due to final defensive fire, I would need ~80 Apn most of which would be lost in the attack (+15% of the survivors lost on transit out).  I don't currently have enough Apn transport capacity as the Apn is a new weapon system for the SCN.

Thanks for the suggestions on the fL.  Ablative armour model and minimal damage of 1...leads to "issues" ... I don't want to think about the fL2 or fP.
 

Offline Starslayer_D (OP)

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2014, 09:43:57 AM »
Month 211, Day 5 Helium System of the Undine Conglomerate

Forty hours later, the warp point flickered again. Six dreadnaughts appeared and launched 96 gunboats. Forty-two armed pinnaces followed them through, risking annihilation again to arrive as a massive swarm. The defenders had reorganised themselves after the last fight. The six undine capital missile battlecruisers sat with six longer ranged battlecruisers as escorts at six light seconds from the warp point. Between them and the warp point at three light seconds all remaining undine ships clustered up in a protective group, too far to be ponced on but still in good range for their missile launchers and force beams.
on the other side of the warp point, at four and a half light second, the remaining cartell ships waited, with the carriers again at a long distance outside of missile range behind them. The dreadnaughts exchanged fire, with their capital missiles digging into a cruiser, followed by their lasers. The allied fleets responded, and while their forcebeams slowly pecked away at one of the huge ships, their missiles mostly failed to penetrate the strong point defense suite it carried.
In the next half minute, six battleships emerged from the warp point and detached a further 72 gunboats. The first wave of gun boats went out after the Cartell ships, salvoing their missiles into te cartell corvettes and overwhelming them quickly, then ripping deeply into the cartell battlecruiser who had managed to rush to action stations. Unfortunately, its plasma guns and capital missiles only managed to kill three of the small attackers. while this happened the undines ships where still slow of the mark, but their gradual fire dug deep into the invading dreadnaught. The invaders answered with coordinated salvos of capital missiles from the dreadnaughts, and more capital missiles from three of the battleships. The other three proved to be of the same design like the probe which happened earlier by their broadsides of hetlasers. The fire concentrated now on the undine battlecruisers, as their forcebeams were the most efficient weapons. The dreadnaughts also  salvo-ed their external missiles, stripping the armor of another battlecruiser.
With the next wave, three battleships and three battlecruisers which delivered 66 further gunboats, the invaders started to focus their lasers on several battlecruisers in an attempt to strip away their EDMs from the external racks, as these proved to be quite effective at stopping their missiles. The battlecruisers had just a single capital launcher each, but four very powerfull XRay Lasers as a broadside, which by themselves allmost stripped the armor of an undince battlecruiser when they targetted it, even at three light seconds distance. The battleships were more capital missile armed combatants. All this was paid for by the death of the dreadnaught under the relentless forcebeams of the defenders.
But all this was allmost a sideshow compared to the wave of gunboats which crashed into the five remaining cartell battlecruisers, and overwhelmed them quickly by salvo after salvo of short range rockets with fRAMs. The 52 remaining gunboats in this wave turned then towards the warp point again, preserving their remaining armament while the armed pinnaces flew out to eliminate the shattered wrecks of the cartell battlecruisers and corvettes with external lasers.
As the last wave of the invaders came in, two more battleships and three battlecruisers, the defenders attention was diverted as 138 gunboats forged foreward from the warp point to intercept the undine defenders. But this forray was met with the fire of all battlecruisers and cruisers, who fired sprint mode missiles into them and reduced their numbers by half, while their missiles blotted the undine frigates from space and engaged some of the more crippled combatants. Unfortunately, this allowed the red ships to fire unopposed, and they went to scour the armor of defenders and break up their datalinks left and right.
Still, even while the last wave of gunboats followed their colleagues, the defender stayed focused on the first wave, as they closed to swarm around them, damaging cruiser after cruiser heavily while the cruisers reaped them in return. Some of the gun boats were laser armed, and those went ahead to remove more armor and external EDM from the battlecruisers as the cruiser force died around them. Nineteen gunboats broke away after this, having expended their ordinance and the defenders let them go, focusing on the incoming second wave while ignoring the ships still clustered around the warp point. These proceeded to further damage many of the defenders, but not going in for the kill, while removing coordination, engine rooms and armor from them. By now the defenders knew they were in trouble. If they closed in, which they no longer could quickly, their beams would become more effective and they could fire their missiles in sprint mode. But the invaders beams would also become way more effective and slaughter them quickly. Fleeing, they would have to crawl through capital missile fire with antimatter warheads, and bereaved of datalinks and EDMs would also be destroyed before escaping. The missile armed enemies meanwhile engaged the distant group of battlecruisers with laser tipped capital missiles , breaking up their datalinks and scouring their eternal ordinance after they had managed to destroy one battle cruiser.
After the last wave of gunboats crashed in a was eliminated for the price of further heavy damage, the battle took on an allmost leisure pace, lasting another six minutes where the heavy damaged defenders trades light individual hits with their opponents, taking another battlecruiser to the grave with them and damaging a third as they, now unable to flee where picked apart slowly before the eyes of the horrified Cartell carrier crews, until the defenseless wrecks were chased down by the armed pinnaces, as they had to deal with far less long range fire swooping in.
As the red fleet only had some gunboats left, and those would not have good chances in a stern chase with the carriers, the three cartell ships retreated towards Tantalum, leaving the red fleet in possesion of the warp point.

On the inhabited worlds of the Tungsten system, now unreachable by any fleet the battered undines could hope to muster, like thick rain drops heralding a deluge  from a cloud swollen sky, neutron bombs started to fall.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 08:24:14 AM by Starslayer_D »
 

Offline Starslayer_D (OP)

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #133 on: August 22, 2014, 09:50:16 AM »
fP we had agreed to that its one shot and back to carrier for a recharge. I think we have left over haggling how many anti ship shots an fL has, 2 or 3..?

Well, the battle with the undines was a long one, especially as it defenitely was the largest so far in the campaign, with over seventy cruiser sized or larger vessels, and hundreds of prototype gun boats involved. But the undines were firmly trapped on the downhill side of a tech slope, as their tech 8 systems are still developping and their fleets were slated for a refit to that standard. TL10 oponents are not fun in such a regard. They pierce your EM, theirs stays, they have DEC2 Lx, HET, AM, Mi1, Dx, Zi, Ac, S2, -LT2...

Well, they will also now spend about 10 turns building gunboats to refill the Xog :)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:48:17 AM by Starslayer_D »
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Theban Empire
« Reply #134 on: August 22, 2014, 10:29:23 AM »
I don't agree with fP at all.   :)  But then I still think of primaries from the Lensmen books where they were poduced by overloading a weapon, and later by overloading a replacable projector core.  I don't think a primary could be made that worked on a fighter.  But thankfully it is further down the tech chain for the moment.

My favorite Seals...don't sound to be doing so well.  Ah well the SCN had decided to reinforce our one open point of contact with those xeophobic, fish eating, fur bearing, aquatic irritants. 

HT10 adds a lot to the mix and being TL7 (effectively) puts you on a very steep slope.  AFM is the real answer to gunboats, as they can be engaged with that out to 20 hexes away...and even Fc opens them up to a world of hurt with a 1 to hit at range 20, modified by crew grade, etc.  The Seals need a 100 HS warp point to slow down the Red Tide...plus fighters. 

I'm not sure they did the right thing being close enough to engage the enemy in this case.  Staying back at 40 hexes and activating their ships might have spared them this sort of defeat.  It is hard to say, you can argue both ways.  Clearly at long range you have to close with the enemy but it would give you the option of deep space engagement.