Game discussion

[Sheb]

Pretty much, yeah.

[Vandermeer]

I would like to continue the RP on the espionage incident at the meeting before all that smeg happend, as we have prepared a few more answers but I didn't expect the PDC to be finished that soon, and this was why I let the RP in the UN thread open for you to answer. In the mails we exchanged it we talked about having it as a hearing, so if you would like to participate in it and give it a little bit and better flair, feel free to do so. Alternatively I can just write the rest myself, if you prefer that. Or nothing at all.
It will take some time though, as I haven't enough time for that until tuesday.

I would like to continue this too. There was some planning behind it with the talking points, and it would be a shame not to be able to play it out.

I could still not answer yesterday nor today, because the trouble for me just doesn't settle, you have no idea.
I hope I can bring something together between Tuesday and Friday evening. After that I have to take care of a friend, and it will be full time for days until at least the Wednesday after or more.

As you can see, it's very basic, optimised to shoot ICBMs and PDCs. (Fun fact: before trying, I didn't know that PDC without turrets still have a non-zero tracking speed).

I see nothing today, as if the design isn't even there. (did not realize the downtime kicked me that much out of shape)

I meant it as a joke before, but seriously though, I cannot see the design. The picture isn't there for me. Could it be blocked, but I see all the other pictures people post?(..I think)
You seem to see it, soo...

As for "What would happen if it launched."  I ran the war a number of ways.
I actually ran the war in my "Test" game.   Something that is easy enough.

War 1 - Russia Launches standard launch of ICBMS

NAU defeats launch in nine minutes.   Russia eliminated from game as mesons eliminate shipyards and ICBM bases.

War 2- Russia Launches "Drgong style" launch of ICBMS

NAU defeats launch in  15 minutes,   Russia Eliminated by Meson

War 3 - Russia and FSA launch standard launch of ICBMS

Close, but NAU defeats all launches by the skin of their teeth, FSA and Russia Eliminated

War 4 - Russia and FSA "Drgong style" launch of ICBMS

About 240 ICBMs impact NAU.

War 5  Russia and FSA  "drgong style" launch, with the previously undisclosed FSA ICBM+/Ratel Missiles.

X = number of ICBMS+
in 10 seconds,  X number of impacts on NAU , taking out shipyards and population.    ~240-(X) impact NAU.  We all die.

I only have to object to the "PDC gets destroyed by Mesons" parts. Here is an early quote from Russia Thread interna (some stuff black marked):

If we get a sufficient number of meson bases, couldn't we use those to take out enemy bases in an alpha strike?

Oh, come to think of it, - that has actually never been tested since PDC is not built by NPRs. Normally you cannot use Meson from orbit to surface, so I didn't consider this, but if PDC just get treated as ships by Aurora, it might actually work for the first time.

----
So, I have been running a quick test game on this, and sensational news: It does work!
I repeat: We can Alphastrike their missile bases into nothing before Earth's obliteration, because mesons still work on PDC where they always failed when being used on planetary population or ground forces otherwise.

[...], we could probably easily achieve a stage where all their bases may fall in an instant 5-second.(simulations for that may follow) Then we just have to outlive the assault of their ground forces to win. This gives [...] more weight I suppose.
Really good news, a winning possibility without fallout, and I stand corrected with that [...] impeding doomsday scenario [...].


It just dawned on me that this kind of introduces another but much more cheap way to win the game. I am not for it, but just so you know:[...], we could indeed just focus on very cheap meson bases [...], so we get as much of that as possible. Have [...], and after the 10 years truce ends, we could just overrun their capital and take over all their belongings without even having to set a foot in space.

...Not the Aurora way to do things, but that is most positively an even more effective strategy with same-planet-start players now. Just so you know that we also have the moral high-ground by neglecting such dishonorable warfare practice, so if we later beat NAU, we can also say that "we didn't even give it our best shot" too.

For the sake of generating an interesting (and longer lived?) story, I guess we shouldn't go all out on this meson PDC plan. Still, that doesn't stop us from doing the [...], so we still have a fallback plan at least if [...] doesn't go so well.

Yes, I agree. Also I feel that the thing with PDC being able to be targeted was maybe not intended anyway, since they usually don't show up on any player radar, and NPR and spoilers are known to have issues with targeting them too.
Even if not though, it feels cheap.

...So, the thing with mesons is that you cannot ever shoot them from orbit to ground, because the log will show something like "is a precision weapon, and can as such not be targeted on planetary surface" (meaning probably: no collateral)
I see no real reason why that condition should change for when they are mounted on ground to begin with, so it is maybe a bug or was overlooked by Steve, which seems likely, because PDC vs PDC is a rare game setting to say the least.
...It could also be that attacking PDCs was actually intended, because they would be more compact and ship-like, but even if it was intentional, from the above argument you can see that it is very unhealthy for any Aurora-feel game, because it restricts warfare to who can rush out their meson turrets fast enough. The mesons destroy shipyards and PDC, so even when you have TN missiles, they would just be the prime weapon in hopes to alphastrike all enemy launch bases away, and completely paralyze all the enemy can do from then. (you can build it secret too, by just building one huge base, so the enemy cannot see it coming. ...Then 5 seconds and over)

This is why I propose to make it illegal  to use them towards ground targets. We can get Steve to comment on that probably to make clear whether he wanted that or not.

If it would stay though, I would feel really punished for making the "moral" choice before, because we have seen this early, and all these sudden death scenarios from Drgong above could to date have easily rolled in our direction as well if we had decided to abuse this when we could've.

[Drgong (OP)]

...So, the thing with mesons is that you cannot ever shoot them from orbit to ground, because the log will show something like "is a precision weapon, and can as such not be targeted on planetary surface" (meaning probably: no collateral)

False- you can target PDCs from orbit, just not ground troops or populations since they are so dispersed.   This is one of the more noteworthy bonuses for Mesons as a beam weapon - unlike the other beam weapons, they can shoot though atmosphere. (Lasers are useless)

I see no real reason why that condition should change for when they are mounted on ground to begin with, so it is maybe a bug or was overlooked by Steve, which seems likely, because PDC vs PDC is a rare game setting to say the least.

It is a very real possibility in a 3 way race to the stars.  I would not expect if you launched at someone that they wouldn't have swatting down your missiles would not one by one eliminate your PDCs.   PDC->PDC combat can happen when you share a world.
 

...It could also be that attacking PDCs was actually intended, because they would be more compact and ship-like, but even if it was intentional, from the above argument you can see that it is very unhealthy for any Aurora-feel game, because it restricts warfare to who can rush out their meson turrets fast enough. The mesons destroy shipyards and PDC, so even when you have TN missiles, they would just be the prime weapon in hopes to alphastrike all enemy launch bases away, and completely paralyze all the enemy can do from then. (you can build it secret too, by just building one huge base, so the enemy cannot see it coming. ...Then 5 seconds and over)

That is why you have 32 missile bases - each of them with 10 launchers.  Unless you are using now outdated ICBMs, there is no way that someone can rush enough mesons to take out 32 missile bases in one shot.  That would take almost 1,000 mesons.   Russia is right now dependent on FSA military goodwill since they have not deployed a single countermeasure.   Even a simple Trans-newtonian missile of 2000 km/s with a warhead can make sure that you have MAD.   

or the TL:DR

Mesons can fire on non-defuse targets
This includes PDCs
meson PDCs can fire on other PDCs
Simple Trans-newtonian missles make a meson strike useless as there no way you can build enough Mesons to take out every base, and a TN missile will be detected by sensors as it produces a X-sized nuclear explosion on the target.  Even taking out active sensors, they can still be aimed at the populations. 

[Sheb]

Can we give a design to another nation without giving them all the techs leading to that design?

[Drgong (OP)]

Can we give a design to another nation without giving them all the techs leading to that design?

I will check and see, but I do not think so.

[Vandermeer]

False- you can target PDCs from orbit, just not ground troops or populations since they are so dispersed.   This is one of the more noteworthy bonuses for Mesons as a beam weapon - unlike the other beam weapons, they can shoot though atmosphere. (Lasers are useless)

The point here is that NPR don't have PDC, so this might have been overlooked, because it sure never happens in any usual game any player would have.
...Doesn't have to, and I am standing 50:50 with it too in whether it was intended or not (I thought I made that clear in the last post.. // with the Russia quotes too...), but what really moves me to propose this kind of ban is the terrible effect on PvP gaming. => Not "Space!" anymore, but meson rush, and ground combat.

It is a very real possibility in a 3 way race to the stars.  I would not expect if you launched at someone that they wouldn't have swatting down your missiles would not one by one eliminate your PDCs.   PDC->PDC combat can happen when you share a world.

No problem with missile vs. missile PDC, because they have the mutual extinction causing delay, but don't you see how it monopolizes the game when you do the same with beam weapons?

Also, why haven't you said anything when we discussed this before in Russia? I understand you cannot read everything in all those threads of both parties, but this went through some messages at least. We denied Meson buildup because we thought it was immoral or against the game's spirit, and now we stand here, having none, and hearing about glorious righteous winning scenarios because "you fools should have done it too".
Yeah, we would have.
 

That is why you have 32 missile bases - each of them with 10 launchers.  Unless you are using now outdated ICBMs, there is no way that someone can rush enough mesons to take out 32 missile bases in one shot.  That would take almost 1,000 mesons.   Russia is right now dependent on FSA military goodwill since they have not deployed a single countermeasure.   Even a simple Trans-newtonian missile of 2000 km/s with a warhead can make sure that you have MAD.   

or the TL:DR

Mesons can fire on non-defuse targets
This includes PDCs
meson PDCs can fire on other PDCs
Simple Trans-newtonian missles make a meson strike useless as there no way you can build enough Mesons to take out every base, and a TN missile will be detected by sensors as it produces a X-sized nuclear explosion on the target.  Even taking out active sensors, they can still be aimed at the populations.

As said, yes, we would not have destroyed NAU at this time, but if we'd known that meson ground attack is perfectly good sports in this game, we would have shifted all investment to that too, as it is perfectly logical to do that with it becoming the sudden most prominent winning factor of PvP Aurora.
So with us on that same table, the whole thing would have played out differently, depending mostly whether we actually finished our PDC early, or NAU.
Drgong and Russia Spoiler:
(probably us though, since we needn't do some other tech first, as you know)
It probably wouldn't have been over if you or NAU had the TN missiles at this time, but also it wouldn't have happened as it did, plus, we now probably get an armament spiral for the future trying to out-meson each other, as the faction who doesn't do it will fade eventually, no matter any hypothetical armada they'd be able to put out. (look at what i said in the old Russia quotes: "most effective winning strategy")
(at least until they got a really solid base somewhere else, which won't happen, or the resources on Earth got consumed by the PDC buildup, which only delays the problem, as then the hunt for outside resource comes or already runs, and then the spiral continues)



Don't get me wrong though. The thing with the knowledge of missiles needing 10k km flight to strike was really good, so NAU has my compliments for knowing that. (actually said that in Russia some days ago) Even with an early Meson Base on our side, we would have fallen into that trap, because really no one seemed to know, which means NAU would have won once they had both, one  meson, and some TN missiles. (they then surprisingly block our conventionals, and pierce our own meson defense)
So without the ammunition from FSA it would have ended at that point.
...But sudden ultimate defeat from meson bombardement? No, that would not have happened. Nukes would have been needed, just like it should be, as I keep advertising.

Also, once we eventually had TN missiles, it is back to meson spiral only gameplay.


Well, I am nearly off to meet at airport now, so I can't continue the argument. Last word is on others then.

[Sheb]

Also, why haven't you said anything when we discussed this before in Russia? I understand you cannot read everything in all those threads of both parties, but this went through some messages at least. We denied Meson buildup because we thought it was immoral or against the game's spirit, and now we stand here, having none, and hearing about glorious righteous winning scenarios because "you fools should have done it too".
Yeah, we would have.

Chillax dude, then end results is that we wasted time designing tech and systems that are of no use because apparently first strikes have been banned now.

[Bughunter]

Chillax dude, then end results is that we wasted time designing tech and systems that are of no use because apparently first strikes have been banned now.

Don't worry, since we cannot let you have all the cold war MAD arms race fun by yourselves we are wasting some resources into it too.

[Drgong (OP)]

Okay, I am going to break it into digestible parts.

Also, why haven't you said anything when we discussed this before in Russia? I understand you cannot read everything in all those threads of both parties, but this went through some messages at least. We denied Meson buildup because we thought it was immoral or against the game's spirit, and now we stand here, having none, and hearing about glorious righteous winning scenarios because "you fools should have done it too".
Yeah, we would have.

My job is to be a admin, not a strategy coach- I will correct something that is a turn stopping error, or something that is data-driven since I have access to the database and you guys just have screenshots.  For example, Everyone started with 32 missile bases, if someone says "they have 15 bases" I would correct them.   Ignoring the fact that Meson armed ships can attack ground targets though atmosphere, and say, laser or Mass driver armed ships cannot is something that comes from the realm of game knowledge, and dare I say a choice early on on what type of beam weapon ships to build.
 
Secondly Mesons are NOT "Game over" since you can research and build TN-missiles before a Meson system can come online.   Russia hasn't built a single PDC or ship, while the other teams have built at least  4 probes, PDCs, or in the case of the FSA, two ships.    Russia failed to build  ANYTHING to upgrade their military.   

Also, I don't share admin information.   

It not my job as admin to make sure you had a sound strategy.   The FSA was well prepped for a meson rush, and had a active sensor and Meson-proof missiles in hand.   Now mind you, this is even after I am doing specific things to handicap the FSA.   If the FSA can make it happen, so could Russia, maintaining MAD is by default a early game goal.     

As said, yes, we would not have destroyed NAU at this time, but if we'd known that meson ground attack is perfectly good sports in this game, we would have shifted all investment to that too, as it is perfectly logical to do that with it becoming the sudden most prominent winning factor of PvP Aurora.
So with us on that same table, the whole thing would have played out differently, depending mostly whether we actually finished our PDC early, or NAU.

Not correct again.
The FSA, NAU, or Russia can easily develop TN missiles that nullify mesons as a game breaking weapon before a team can build a Meson system that can take out 320 ICBMS.  This is a simple as looking at the game. 

Meson Rush vs. TNICBM rush
TNICBM requires
PWR - 1500
Nuclear Thermal engines - 2500
1.5 EP NT missile engine 75 points
Size 5 missile with one engine, .1 in fuel, and a warhead that does 4 damage with 14 agility (also a range of 90 million KM and a speed of 6000 KM/S) - 124 RP

Congrats, you have TNICBMs for the cost of 4,199 RP

Mesons require
PWR - 1500
10 CM meson - 1000
Meson focusing - 1000
Beam fire Control - 1000
Fire control Speed - 2000
Fire Control S01.2 20-2500 - 80RP
R1.5/C1 Meson Cannon 300RP
Active Sensor - 1000
Active Search Sensor MR0-R1 100RP

total: 7,980

Or to be blunt - it takes 190% of the effort to rush a meson base as it does to build TNICBMs. 




I have said it before in this thread.

So I am going to be Really blunt about it.

The fact is - if we are playing "Hardcore" -
Russia lost in Turn 9. 

 You guys failed to do a number of things. 

You failed to make any sorts of friend or allies
you failed to do anything to make Russia safe from TN weapons
The NAU didn't Rush Mesons - they been launching Probe at Trans-newtownian speeds for months.  That should of alerted you that NAU had TN-engine tech.   
this isn't about spirit of the game, this is just failing do basic things to protect yourself.

Now luckily, I am playing the FSA as mostly friendly unless you screw them over.   The "Peacekeeper" system was of zero threat to the FSA for the following reasons.
We had built a understanding with the NAU
We invested and made sure even if the NAU decided to go aggressive on us, we had TNICBMs online so that at least we could get a nuke in retaliation if they strike.   

Now mind you, the FSA was able to do that even with.
--Building two ships for nothing more then role playing.
--building a vastly overpowered sensor array
--designing and building the "De beers" survey probes
--a number of Classified projects

All prior to designing and building our "Honey Badger" system

And we STILL beat the NAU "Rush" to mesons.   and that with the FSA handicaps.

So deciding that I really didn't want to end the game on turn 9 for Russia as admin
 -- even if it was no fault of the NAU,

I was forced to make Meta choices for to continue the game.

Thus the FSA forced the NAU  to backdown on Russia, even if Russia was opposed to FSA policies.   Which mind you screwed over the FSA long term plans, ruined FSA diplomacy,  Ruined the good fun of the NAU players who had caught your with your pants down, and best yet, the FSA is not demanding a long list of concessions for this.  This is due to the fact that I am acting as the admin, not a FSA player.   If I was playing as a player, I would of simply let the NAU walk over you with a treaty dealing with letting the NAU and FSA claim asteroids without fighting. 

To the credit of the NAU players --After I screwed them over for the betterment of the game. They have at least the courtesy not to complain and understand that I made choices for the continuation of the game, not the best for the FSA.   The fact is that they beat you not with a "Meson Rush", but due to the poor planning on team Russia. 

To complain about Meson Rushes when:
It wasn't a meson rush
And the Admin though the FSA bailed you out without even a thank you

is rather off-putting.   

Chillax dude, then end results is that we wasted time designing tech and systems that are of no use because apparently first strikes have been banned now.

To be fair, it forcing the FSA and Russia to spend a lot of money and effort upgrading their missile systems.    Also first strikes are not banned, just discouraged.   I am the first to call out my mistakes as a admin - and I failed to figure out something that would of rewarded you for correct play.   

Don't worry, since we cannot let you have all the cold war MAD arms race fun by yourselves we are wasting some resources into it too.

Indeed, the FSA and Russia will have to spend plenty of time and money making sure that MAD survives....

[Sheb]

Just going to react to what Bughunter said in PM, do you guys think it'd be a good idea to ban tech trades? I mean, we all used it, but they're just so powerful since giving a tech doesn't cost anything... On the other hand, they do speed things a bit.

[DaMachinator]

What blew up while I was at work?

[Drgong (OP)]

What blew up while I was at work?

Most of this thread was post peacekeeper crisis.

[Drgong (OP)]

Just going to react to what Bughunter said in PM, do you guys think it'd be a good idea to ban tech trades? I mean, we all used it, but they're just so powerful since giving a tech doesn't cost anything... On the other hand, they do speed things a bit.

Speaking as the FSA (and not as admin) I prefer tech trades due to the fact that it speeds up the tech progress as we did start with almost no tech.

Speaking as the Admin
I am fine saying the FSA can't do tech trades - though I would prefer to complete any already agreed on trades as I based research priories based on the agreed trades. 

 

[Bughunter]

Not sure if it is a good idea (especially for my team) but yes I would like to remove FSA tech trades. As Sheb said they are extremely powerful. Also in a normal game of Aurora you don't have that option.

[Drgong (OP)]

I have a idea for making the game a little more curious, to make diplomacy a little more fun. 

- Set up the non-aligned nations (EU) in game, give them 500M population, no missile bases, no shipyards and say, 15 labs. (or give them the starting 1000 and 10,000 ton shipyards, but still years behind everyone else)

Each year 2% of their total earth population emigrates to one of the three powers.

Emigration is determined by your diplomatic score towards the EU.

Diplomatic score is as follows. 

Diplomatic team score + d100 + Bonus.


Bonus is the following
Commercial vessel donated to the EU - Tonnage/1000
Military vessel donated to the EU - Tonnage/100
Research donated - RP/10


This is a general idea that been in my head to improve the diplomatic function which right now is very random.  The EU would not be a threat to any of the great powers (Smaller, and way behind tech wise) and its military solely used for defensive reasons.  They would only sign treaties that all three major powers sign.

Edit: The "bonus" resets to zero at the start of the year.