Author Topic: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread  (Read 46220 times)

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Offline xenoscepter

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2020, 12:31:37 AM »
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12035.msg143332#msg143332
^Hell yeah! I was hoping for a return of the Fighter-Only Beam FCS, Lord only knows I've bellyached about it, but this is wayyyy better! ;D

Great job on this one, knocked it out of the park! I like the Railgun thing too, btw. Having nice, big, single shot Railguns is gonna be awesome! A shame though that it puts another nail into Gauss, but to be honest Gauss is already very potent, so no big deal. :) I love these changes, bravo!
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2020, 06:42:25 AM »
The only argument against tiny railgun fighters is micromanagement, and that could easily be reduced by improving fighter management tools (and in truth I haven't played with them enough to say if the micromanagement is even still an issue).

I think mass fighter management is only a problem in the context of ground support fighters. Right now large numbers of CAS is literally unuseable because of having to one by one drag each fighter to a formation to support it. This is made worse by the fact that you cannot scroll the ground OOB menu while dragging fighters meaning that after a certain amount you become forced to split your CAS into a massive amount wings, cluttering the naval OOB menu. I say this with a force that "only" has 42 CAS fighters in 7 wings of six.

You can drag and drop between two different windows as well... will this not help you when doing this. I might be out of practice as I have not had that many ground combats in the last couple of months.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2020, 10:32:54 AM »
You can drag and drop between two different windows as well... will this not help you when doing this. I might be out of practice as I have not had that many ground combats in the last couple of months.

I'll admit that I havent thought of doing that since I use a single monitor but that does not remove the problem of only being able to drag fighters one by one. Even with just 42 of them it can become quite troublesome. I think having some button to auto-distribute CAS to FFDs would be nice.
 

Offline Shuul

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2020, 06:46:35 AM »
We now need something for gauss cannons maybe?
 
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Offline Drakale

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2020, 09:14:00 AM »
Interesting changes. I remember having difficulties creating a 250 ton viable railgun fighter, this might very well make it possible at lowish tech level. May even pack a decent punch with a spinal 1 shot 12CM, if weight allows.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2020, 09:36:58 AM »
You can drag and drop between two different windows as well... will this not help you when doing this. I might be out of practice as I have not had that many ground combats in the last couple of months.

I'll admit that I havent thought of doing that since I use a single monitor but that does not remove the problem of only being able to drag fighters one by one. Even with just 42 of them it can become quite troublesome. I think having some button to auto-distribute CAS to FFDs would be nice.

I have no idea what type of devices you have at home but I have outside of two monitors also several tablets (android devices) that I use to have the log on and sometimes more than one device for different windows.

If you use Spacedesk which is an application you can share your devices as virtual screens and this works on pretty much any device. So if you have an old laptop or tablets you can use them as extra screens and this works really well with Aurora as you can open windows on multiple smaller screens.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 09:39:45 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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Offline trainhighway

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2020, 04:00:51 PM »
Quote from: Shuul link=topic=12088. msg143423#msg143423 date=1606135595
We now need something for gauss cannons maybe?
Perhaps the gauss cannons could gain some benefit to being turreted, as a lot of the other special options focus more around hull mounting. 
 

Offline Vasious

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2020, 04:54:58 PM »
We now need something for gauss cannons maybe?

Is not Gauss Cannon's thing, that they do not suffer failures?

Or am I incorrect in that account
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2020, 10:04:18 PM »
Quote from: Shuul link=topic=12088. msg143423#msg143423 date=1606135595
We now need something for gauss cannons maybe?
Perhaps the gauss cannons could gain some benefit to being turreted, as a lot of the other special options focus more around hull mounting.

Gauss cannons already have reduced accuracy options, which are sort of similar to the new railgun changes. They're not terribly useful, but they exist. They're also the only weapon that gets increased fire rate from tech.

Actually if Steve really wanted to make every weapon more unique I think the next on the list would be plasma cannons. If he's looking for suggestions, I think they'd be a good target for playing with the recharge rate mechanic. For instance, over- or under- charging. Say, if you had a plasma cannon that took 60 power to fire for 60 damage, but in design you could tick the "overcharge capability" box to make it 10% larger but if not fired it would charge all the way up to 120 power and do 90 damage when fired (and then be back to doing 60 for 60 until you let it overcharge again). Or an undercharge mechanic would let plasma cannons fire whatever power they had in their capacitor.. if it takes 60 power to deal 60 damage normally, but you left it on open fire, it would just dump all it's power every 5 seconds doing that much damage. I think either of those changes would lend itself well to the plasma cannon's role as a brutal close range weapon, but I don't know how weapons fire is coded so have no idea how much work the change would be.

I guess that's kind of turning into a suggestion post instead of discussion. Anyways, I love the way the changes are making the weapons more unique.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2020, 11:43:29 AM »
Gauss cannons already have reduced accuracy options, which are sort of similar to the new railgun changes. They're not terribly useful, but they exist. They're also the only weapon that gets increased fire rate from tech.

Actually if Steve really wanted to make every weapon more unique I think the next on the list would be plasma cannons. If he's looking for suggestions, I think they'd be a good target for playing with the recharge rate mechanic. For instance, over- or under- charging. Say, if you had a plasma cannon that took 60 power to fire for 60 damage, but in design you could tick the "overcharge capability" box to make it 10% larger but if not fired it would charge all the way up to 120 power and do 90 damage when fired (and then be back to doing 60 for 60 until you let it overcharge again). Or an undercharge mechanic would let plasma cannons fire whatever power they had in their capacitor.. if it takes 60 power to deal 60 damage normally, but you left it on open fire, it would just dump all it's power every 5 seconds doing that much damage. I think either of those changes would lend itself well to the plasma cannon's role as a brutal close range weapon, but I don't know how weapons fire is coded so have no idea how much work the change would be.

I guess that's kind of turning into a suggestion post instead of discussion. Anyways, I love the way the changes are making the weapons more unique.

The issue with plasma carronades is that they're already nearly unbeatable as a close-range brawling weapon. Making them better at close-range brawling won't really make them a better weapon because their main limitation is simply that getting into close brawling range is so difficult, since in the process you have to not only fend off missile fire but also close range against all the longer-ranged beamships you might encounter. That's not unsolvable, but it does make plasma usually a poor choice of weapon in terms of relative optimization and buffing their alpha damage even more doesn't really change this.

One thought I did have was to give plasma carronades some kind of miniaturization help similar to what Railguns are getting here to make them more viable to mount on fighters, which can close range with beamships using high speed and thus make good platforms for plasma guns. Plus, the playstyle of flying in fast, dodging flak fire, firing off a salvo of plasma guns, and retreating out of range to reload is a unique "bombing run" playstyle that you don't really get from missile fighters as much.

Note that this does admittedly leave microwaves as the other beam weapon type without a special mounting of some kind (Gauss/Meson = turrets, Laser = spinal, Particle Beam = lance, and now Railguns in the next patch). Those are already a pretty special kind of weapon though.
 
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2020, 08:06:08 PM »
One possible option for fighter plasma cannons I dont think has been done yet for another weapon would be an ability to do away with any inbuilt recharging capability (reducing mass of the cannon itself and also removing the need for a reactor on the fighter), so you get relatively very lightweight plasma cannons, can charge the plasma cannon at the mothership, and then the fighter gets one shot per cannon.
 
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Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2020, 08:15:58 PM »
That actually sounds cool. It would need to be a fairly quick recharge, not hours. You could do a lot of damage at a jump point for low costs with a squad of plasma carronade fighters to assist your minefields.
 

Offline Malorn

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2020, 09:35:17 PM »
One possible option for fighter plasma cannons I dont think has been done yet for another weapon would be an ability to do away with any inbuilt recharging capability (reducing mass of the cannon itself and also removing the need for a reactor on the fighter), so you get relatively very lightweight plasma cannons, can charge the plasma cannon at the mothership, and then the fighter gets one shot per cannon.

That sounds... perfect, actually. Though perhaps not one shot, but a very limited number of shots, such as 5?

This would mean you could have another sort of bomber entirely, a plasma bomber which did not use missiles. Creative, interesting, and could allow for some insane alpha strikes in many cases.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2020, 09:45:07 PM »
 - Well, the return of reduced size FCS already makes Beam fighters wayyyy more practical than they were before. Like, quite significantly so.

 - With that having been said; for Plasma Carronades I'd like to see them have an option to consume fuel as ammo. Perhaps a kind of alternative shield that was stronger and/or smaller, but consumed fuel as well to go with it. In Homeworld and Homeworld 2, the Plasma Bombs were fluffed as using a portion of the starship's fuel as ammo, which keeps with the idea and logic of what plasma actually is, that being a state of matter. I don't really expect Steve to put all that work into them though, as much as I'd like to see such a change it really doesn't jive to well with Aurora's flavor, IMO.

 - An alternative for the Carronades would simply to be adding in the reduced size and giving them an "Extended Minimum" analogous to the Laser's Spinal Mounts. The Extended Minimum would have two levels, with the first reducing damage drop off for a corresponding increase in weight, say halving the drop off in exchange for a mass increase equal to +1 calibre. AKA, like how Spinal Mounts increase the laser's weight. The second tier would add +2 calibres of mass for a removal of damage drop off. This would mean that you could combine the two upgrades to make an expensive 15cm Plasma Carronade that had no drop off and weighed the roughly the same mass, but had drastically increased recharge needs.

 - For the HPMs, I'd really just like the option to turret 'em, tbh. I think they'd make nice Anti-Fighter / Anti-FAC guns. I'd also like to see the damage of HPMs, well "damage", but you know what I mean... I'd like to see that increase with calibre. Likewise for Mesons, I'd like to see bigger Meson Guns do more damage. So a 12cm HPM would do 4 damage to shields and a 15cm would do 5 damage to them, but both would still only roll once for E-DAC, while the 20cm would do 6 Damage to shields and roll twice on the E-DAC. Basically have the bigger HPMs increase the shield damage while making the number of rolls on the E-DAC be equal to half the shield damage rounded down.

 - Mesons could do something similar, in that they fire a bigger "shot". So a 12cm Meson fires a 2-point "shot", a 15cm Meson fires a 3-point "shot" and so on and so forth. Thus the Meson Retardation Tech would become more useful as you went up in size, with each failed roll removing 1 point of strength from the "shot" until it finally fizzled. The size, power requirements, costs and so on would keep smaller guns useful for fighters, turrets and such, while the FCS needed to make use of the better range would help keep the mid-sized guns relevant for some time as well. These factors would also curb the usefulness of truly monstrous guns, like 30cm+ ones, as their FCS and Power Requirements would hamstring their damage output via accuracy, RoF, and required technological & material investment.

 - Thus under these changes Plasma Carronades would become a more robust and interesting weapon system to invest in, without losing their low-cost / low-tech niche. HPMs would become shield-buster / ion cannon-esque weapons, and with the option to turret would double as Anti-Fighter / Anti-FAC against beam-centric foes. Mesons would a lot more useful to research as a main weapon option, since the big ones would give better performance against ships while the turreted small ones remain a viable Anti-Missile / Anti-FAC, with the ones in the 12~15cm range would double as Anti-Fighter weapons. These would make Mesons into an actually threatening weapon, without reverting them to the overpowered monstrosities that they were. Add back them Armored Missiles and suddenly they become very, very attractive options indeed. :)
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2020, 10:39:48 PM »
- With that having been said; for Plasma Carronades I'd like to see them have an option to consume fuel as ammo. Perhaps a kind of alternative shield that was stronger and/or smaller, but consumed fuel as well to go with it. In Homeworld and Homeworld 2, the Plasma Bombs were fluffed as using a portion of the starship's fuel as ammo, which keeps with the idea and logic of what plasma actually is, that being a state of matter. I don't really expect Steve to put all that work into them though, as much as I'd like to see such a change it really doesn't jive to well with Aurora's flavor, IMO.

This is a neat idea. Could be unlocked by the first fusion reactor tech, which marks the point in the tech tree where we can use Sorium fuel to generate high-temperature plasmas. However as you say it doesn't quite fit, namely you'd still need a power reactor to run the weapon unless you throw lore out the window, so there'd be no benefit...unless Steve wanted to bring back plasma torpedoes?  :o

Quote
- An alternative for the Carronades would simply to be adding in the reduced size and giving them an "Extended Minimum" analogous to the Laser's Spinal Mounts. The Extended Minimum would have two levels, with the first reducing damage drop off for a corresponding increase in weight, say halving the drop off in exchange for a mass increase equal to +1 calibre. AKA, like how Spinal Mounts increase the laser's weight. The second tier would add +2 calibres of mass for a removal of damage drop off. This would mean that you could combine the two upgrades to make an expensive 15cm Plasma Carronade that had no drop off and weighed the roughly the same mass, but had drastically increased recharge needs.

I'm not sure how this is appreciably different from the particle beam except with variations in range, hitting power, and maybe firing speed. Given that Steve seems very set on keeping each type of beam/gun weapon distinctive I'm not sure this would fit well. That said, the general concept is similar enough to a spinal plasma cannon kind of weapon and I think we can all get behind the idea of another badass BFG in the game.

Quote
- For the HPMs, I'd really just like the option to turret 'em, tbh. I think they'd make nice Anti-Fighter / Anti-FAC guns. I'd also like to see the damage of HPMs, well "damage", but you know what I mean... I'd like to see that increase with calibre. Likewise for Mesons, I'd like to see bigger Meson Guns do more damage. So a 12cm HPM would do 4 damage to shields and a 15cm would do 5 damage to them, but both would still only roll once for E-DAC, while the 20cm would do 6 Damage to shields and roll twice on the E-DAC. Basically have the bigger HPMs increase the shield damage while making the number of rolls on the E-DAC be equal to half the shield damage rounded down.

I believe Steve has said he chose not to turret HPMs to keep them exclusively as an anti-ship weapon.

Quote
- Mesons could do something similar, in that they fire a bigger "shot". So a 12cm Meson fires a 2-point "shot", a 15cm Meson fires a 3-point "shot" and so on and so forth. Thus the Meson Retardation Tech would become more useful as you went up in size, with each failed roll removing 1 point of strength from the "shot" until it finally fizzled. The size, power requirements, costs and so on would keep smaller guns useful for fighters, turrets and such, while the FCS needed to make use of the better range would help keep the mid-sized guns relevant for some time as well. These factors would also curb the usefulness of truly monstrous guns, like 30cm+ ones, as their FCS and Power Requirements would hamstring their damage output via accuracy, RoF, and required technological & material investment.

Interesting idea, though I worry it might be a bit powerful after a couple of tech levels as they simply eat less-armored ships alive whereas anything else has to at least ablate a few layers of armor to begin breaking things. Which I know is the whole idea of mesons, but it's a damn powerful idea. Maybe a compromise is to have them fire in salvos, similar to railguns but the shots per salvo can increase as with Gauss guns. That way you multiply the firepower still, but the armor penetration stays the same per shot which is easier to balance.