Author Topic: Pulsar 4X Ideas  (Read 30757 times)

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Offline Mor

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2016, 10:21:44 PM »
I am not sure how or if, you guys are planing to change\enhance the offensive\defensive scheme. So I'll toss here the idea I had from the other thread, just in case it will be useful.

Basically, if ever the need arise for counter to energy weapons, you can use  reflection coatings. It is a common technology even today, and it would makes sense that it would improve in a future of TN fueled super laser. For those unfamiliar with concept, you can think about it as the high tech version of WW2 slopped armor, or:


http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration_(WoWS)#Armor-Piercing


EDIT:
For example, Something like that can allow to decrease the effectiveness of Beam Fleets without chunking a whole lot of Armor, but would keep you vulnerable to kinetics.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 10:24:58 PM by Mor »
 

Offline Rod-Serling

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2016, 11:52:22 PM »
I don't think we need to decrease the effectiveness of beam weapons. They're already woefully under-powered.
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Offline Mor

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2016, 12:38:48 AM »
I didn't said that you should, certainly not with the Aurora's rule book for which you are aiming for.

In Aurora, you have random initial research point allocation and few spoiler tech, but overall there is not a whole lot of variety, its not a question of whether an NPR has some tech but how big he can build it.. I think that Steve's recent particle lance specialization is good idea, but I wish there was more variety, some random element that assigns some basic research path to Races e.g.if you didn't roll cloaking\shields you can't use them, until you recover\steal the tech from someone who has. In such a scenario, having an alternative to shields, can be useful. For example.

So I am just tossing around ideas that might be interesting down the road. Unless Unless, you have a specific topic in mind concerning current progress that you'd like some input on.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 11:59:15 PM by Mor »
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2016, 08:35:35 AM »
What I would like to see when it comes to offense & defense is external modules.

On real military ships, submarines and airplanes alot of systems need to be located outside of any kind of armor layer in order to work.

Things like parts of propulsion ( propellers / exhausts ), search radars, turrets, rangefinders and targeting radars, sonars, sensors, Ewar modules and weapons.

Some of these are easier to protect using separate armor like weapons which can be encased in turrets, retracted into the hull behind missile doors, pop up systems or similar.

But many are almost impossible to protect like sensors that have the job of seeing the enemy tend to stop working if you put a big fat slab of armor between them and the enemy!


It would make sense if it worked in a similar way in the game so at least weapon turrets and sensors were located outside the armor layer and thus not protected by it.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2016, 10:15:32 AM »
What I would like to see when it comes to offense & defense is external modules.

On real military ships, submarines and airplanes alot of systems need to be located outside of any kind of armor layer in order to work.

Things like parts of propulsion ( propellers / exhausts ), search radars, turrets, rangefinders and targeting radars, sonars, sensors, Ewar modules and weapons.

Some of these are easier to protect using separate armor like weapons which can be encased in turrets, retracted into the hull behind missile doors, pop up systems or similar.

But many are almost impossible to protect like sensors that have the job of seeing the enemy tend to stop working if you put a big fat slab of armor between them and the enemy!


It would make sense if it worked in a similar way in the game so at least weapon turrets and sensors were located outside the armor layer and thus not protected by it.
Though, there is the potential explanation that the detection and emission equipment is both on the surface and reasonably redundant, while the actual processing stuff is the main mass of it all, underneath the armor. Though, can still all be fried by microwaves.
Turrets might need to be external though.
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2016, 01:47:15 PM »
On real military ships, submarines and airplanes alot of systems need to be located outside of any kind of armor layer in order to work.

Things like parts of propulsion ( propellers / exhausts ), search radars, turrets, rangefinders and targeting radars, sonars, sensors, Ewar modules and weapons.
Such attention to details can be very useful in a 3D sim, but it has to be abstracted in a strategic view we are aiming for (we don't have directional hits, or 3rd dimension) Still, the DAC gives a fairly well approximation of this, with large components like engines being more likely to get hit, and there is special weaponry that address the issue of electronics.

EDIT:
Also on topic of variety mentioned in my previous post. It doesn't have to focused on weapons, why not have several modes of FTL travel each with its own benefit, with each Race only having access to one at the start. ( e.g. Aurora used to have Warp drives as well)

Which would make much more sense then all races across the galaxy developing the exact same approach to FTL, when even on earth most countries can't agree on one approach to anything. And this could spice things up, making better RP experience than "yeah another completely alien race, that has the exact same techs I have only +1 level above me". But again its something to consider   long post 1.0 goal.

EDIT2:
corrected verity  -> variety, for the sake of the weak of heart native English speakers.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 12:02:47 AM by Mor »
 

Offline DIT_grue

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2016, 11:26:05 PM »
verity

*twitch* *twitch*

That word does not mean what you think it means.

And furt- *mmf grmph mfm!* (*muzzles criticism for civility's sake*)
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2016, 02:44:03 AM »
Such attention to details can be very useful in a 3D sim, but it has to be abstracted in a strategic view we are aiming for (we don't have directional hits, or 3rd dimension) Still, the DAC gives a fairly well approximation of this, with large components like engines being more likely to get hit, and there is special weaponry that address the issue of electronics.

For all intents and purposes the DAC is a pretty good model of what would happen in a 3D world, since each armor box corresponds to a certain area and DAC randomly selects which area is hit. If there happens to be a turret in that area it's hit, if not the armor is hit.

To make it work you simply need another layer to the DAC where external stuff have their own that is rolled/checked first to see if any are hit, or share numbers with internal and damage gets applied to the external modules first ( if they are hit ) before its applied to armor.

Having some modules be external also means advantages since the main armor don't need to protect 100% of the tonnage any more, so it can be made thicker.

Basically you could have a more interesting and deep combat simulation and ships with external sensors or unarmored turrets would be quite vulnerable to sandpapering hits or you could render ships "blind" more easily by knocking out their sensors like you can in reality.



I also disagree that you are "aiming for an abstracted strategic view" when you want to simulate each second of combat in great detail!!! If you were aiming for an abstracted strategic view instead in the game then each ship would just have broad overall stats like cost, hitpoints, beam attack, missile attack, armor, and then you would simulate combat like a turn based game with say 1 hour ticks where you roll dice and blow up ships depending on the result of a single dice roll.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 02:45:34 AM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2016, 05:42:57 PM »
Quote
I also disagree that you are "aiming for an abstracted strategic view"
What I meant to say is that Pulsar is aiming for Aurora-format. Which is abstract in the sense that it does not perfectly model all aspects of space combat. Notably, the 2D strategic map and lack of directional fire. Hence, why  armor and component placement, ship facing and target tracking, and other operations that would be too complicated to manually control in large scale combat are abstracted.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2016, 03:41:17 AM »
I still think if components need to be placed outside armor or not could be a very meaningful distinction, without any directional 3D combat.
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2016, 05:05:50 AM »
I am not saying that its a bad idea, many games has internal\external slots, just that it has many consequences. For example, by making sensors external, you effect HPMs. And while there is zero sense in spherical armor that encompass the whole ship, how would you decide what should be external and what shouldn't, based on your personal idea of how a future spacecraft would be designed? I can see a lot of exploits, and once you get past that abstraction, questions about blind spots in offensive\defensive capabilities start to creep in, and hence my previous post. But that just my opinion, concerning the suggestion details provided here.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2016, 08:43:34 AM »
And while there is zero sense in spherical armor that encompass the whole ship, how would you decide what should be external and what shouldn't, based on your personal idea of how a future spacecraft would be designed?

No, what modules are external or internal would be based on the game designers personal ideas of how a future spacecraft would be designed. Just like all other systems and weapons in the game are based on that same vision / assumption of how future spacecrafts would be designed!

I can see a lot of exploits, and once you get past that abstraction, questions about blind spots in offensive\defensive capabilities start to creep in

I don't see much difference actually on the exploit front, external modules would behave to all normal weapons exactly like all modules today behave when hit by mesons ( armor does nothing ). It would make mesons a bit relatively weaker and sand-papering stronger ( both of these being balancing things I think would be healthy ).

Can you think of any specific exploit?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 08:48:33 AM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline Hamof

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2016, 11:14:14 AM »
Quote from: alex_brunius link=topic=5177. msg87632#msg87632 date=1457102614
I don't see much difference actually on the exploit front, external modules would behave to all normal weapons exactly like all modules today behave when hit by mesons ( armor does nothing ).  It would make mesons a bit relatively weaker and sand-papering stronger ( both of these being balancing things I think would be healthy ).

Can you think of any specific exploit?

Sand-papering?

Also, I agree with you that external modules could be nice.
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2016, 01:06:01 PM »
Sand-papering?

Also, I agree with you that external modules could be nice.

Scraping off armor one layer at a time, usually by small/low damage weapons.
 
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Offline Hamof

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Re: Pulsar 4X Ideas
« Reply #104 on: March 04, 2016, 01:09:37 PM »
Quote from: Erik Luken link=topic=5177.  msg87639#msg87639 date=1457118361
Scraping off armor one layer at a time, usually by small/low damage weapons. 

Ah, what's the advantage over just hitting them with a really big gun? I guess you'd have multiple to-hit rolls so there's a higher chance that at least some of that damage will hit. 

"this gun is based on the principle that given enough bullets, even a blind monkey will eventually hit the target.  " Gratuitous Space Battles, one of the AA guns.   Something like that anyway, I don't remember the exact quote and I'm not going to check.