Author Topic: C# Aurora Changes Discussion  (Read 441809 times)

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Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #120 on: October 02, 2016, 06:14:24 PM »
Best would ofcourse be if unloading and loading were separate actions in terms of time needed, so a ship that both unloads fully and loads fully needs 2x the time of a ship that just dumps it's full cargo load and goes away.

This is how it will work.
 

Offline sloanjh (OP)

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #121 on: October 02, 2016, 11:08:07 PM »
On unrep fueling:  To avoid micromanagement, I suspect that it would be good to have the computer do fuel management for the player.  One almost certainly will want to keep one's ships "topped up" as much as possible, e.g. refuel them whenever their fuel level reaches 80-90%.  This would be a BIG pain to manage by hand, even with automated orders (which only work at the TG level).  In "real" life, however, this is something the individual captains would simply manage.  So what I'd really like to be able to do is have Aurora by default simply keep the ships in a TG at 100% fuel levels and draw down fuel in the tanker continuously, at least until the tanker has so little fuel that its range is lower than one of the ships in the TG.  At that point, I can see either continuing to draw the tanker down until some set point (at which point it departs for the nearest fuel source to get another load), or dividing fuel equally (in terms of range) amongst the ships in the TG.

This is analogous to not having to micromanage non-combat jump transits.

John
 
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #122 on: October 03, 2016, 01:34:40 AM »
This is how it will work.
Ah, great.  From reading the update I got the impression there would only be one timer but that it was moved from before loading/departing to before unloading.

The changes to refueling and rearming ships sounds really nice. Looks like it will be critical research and upgrades for smooth Carrier operations!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 01:45:07 AM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline IanD

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #123 on: October 03, 2016, 02:40:33 AM »
Will any of the ordnance reloading changes apply to NPRs? I assume since NPRs do not use fuel the refueling rules will not apply to them.

How will these rules affect fighters rearming and refueling on their carriers?
IanD
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #124 on: October 03, 2016, 06:36:38 AM »
On unrep fueling:  To avoid micromanagement, I suspect that it would be good to have the computer do fuel management for the player.  One almost certainly will want to keep one's ships "topped up" as much as possible, e.g. refuel them whenever their fuel level reaches 80-90%.  This would be a BIG pain to manage by hand, even with automated orders (which only work at the TG level).  In "real" life, however, this is something the individual captains would simply manage.  So what I'd really like to be able to do is have Aurora by default simply keep the ships in a TG at 100% fuel levels and draw down fuel in the tanker continuously, at least until the tanker has so little fuel that its range is lower than one of the ships in the TG.  At that point, I can see either continuing to draw the tanker down until some set point (at which point it departs for the nearest fuel source to get another load), or dividing fuel equally (in terms of range) amongst the ships in the TG.

This is analogous to not having to micromanage non-combat jump transits.

John

I will add something on those lines. I think there is already something similar in VB6 Aurora for fleet training.
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #125 on: October 03, 2016, 06:38:16 AM »
Will any of the ordnance reloading changes apply to NPRs? I assume since NPRs do not use fuel the refueling rules will not apply to them.

How will these rules affect fighters rearming and refueling on their carriers?

NPRs will be affected by the planned ordnance changes.

Fighters will follow the new rules for re-arming and refuelling, instead of the current mechanics. I'll create some carrier-specific rules for the rate of refuel/reload.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #126 on: October 03, 2016, 07:04:56 AM »
I'll create some carrier-specific rules for the rate of refuel/reload.

Could be interesting to have a new hangar component for modelling refuel/reload/recover/launching so you have the tradeoff between fast turnarounds and high storage capacity when designing your Carriers.

Edit: If a separate system for Carriers is implemented it should probably be limited based on the Carrier output so you can't just get around it by making many smaller fighters (with less fuel & ammo each ). Refueling 8 x 125 ton fighters should logically take at least the same time to refuel as a single 1000 ton FAC with 8 times as much fuel in the same Carrier.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 07:17:21 AM by alex_brunius »
 
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Offline Darkminion

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #127 on: October 03, 2016, 10:08:00 AM »
After reading the new refueling rules how will the equalize fuel option be handled? I use this option quite often as different classes of ships will often have different fuel capacities and ranges. Will it only be allowed when there are refueling capabilities in the fleet? Will it also take time?
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #128 on: October 03, 2016, 01:39:34 PM »
After reading the new refueling rules how will the equalize fuel option be handled? I use this option quite often as different classes of ships will often have different fuel capacities and ranges. Will it only be allowed when there are refueling capabilities in the fleet? Will it also take time?

There won't be an equalise fuel option as it currently exists. As mentioned above though, I will create an option to have tankers constantly refuelling. Also, there is nothing to stop you adding the refuelling system to larger warships so they can refuel their escorts if needed.
 

Offline bean

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #129 on: October 03, 2016, 02:53:29 PM »
I'd request a smaller refueling system for use on fighters and smaller ships.  I've found fighter tankers really helpful for a lot of different uses (both for refueling fighters and when a new player under-specs their ship's range), and it would be a shame if they couldn't be built any more.  The same setup would make it cheaper to give capital ships refueling capability.
Will it be possible to have multiple refueling systems on a ship? 
Besides that, though, I really like all of the changes.  Thanks!
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Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #130 on: October 03, 2016, 03:31:26 PM »
Like the new rules on refuling and agree a fighter level component would be very good
 
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Offline bean

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #131 on: October 04, 2016, 12:14:06 PM »
I've thought this over more, and there are a couple of other things which will come into play:
1. Tankers will take a long time to refuel.  Even a small tanker with 100 HS of fuel will take 100 hours at low tech.  As time goes on, I expect that the growth in refueling rate will outpace the growth of the typical tanker, but it's going to be a problem.  Allowing tanker systems to refuel the tanker itself from the planet will go a long way to solving this (particularly if tankers can have multiple fuel systems).
2. The requirements are going to be annoying for frontier planets, because of the size and cost of spaceports.  I can think of three solutions:
   A. Add in a new structure, of maybe factory size, which serves as a fuel/ordnance hose for maybe a single ship at a time at the normal rate, or even a reduced rate, and multiple structures only allow more ships to rearm/refuel.  That way, you can set up forward fuel/weapons bases, and refuel ships at your new colonies without hauling out huge spaceports.
   B. Allow refueling systems to transfer fuel to/from the planet.  In this case, you'd just have to set up a station ship/tender for the new colony/forward base.  It also solves Problem 1.
   C. Allow very slow transfer of fuel without refueling systems while stationary, both between ships and between ship and planet.  Maybe 5-10% of normal rate, or even a fixed rate of say 5,000 LPH.  This is slow enough that it's not likely to be abused, but also means that when you make a mistake and need to rescue that ship, you don't have to divert a dedicated tanker. 
All three do slightly different things, and could be implemented together.
3. The refueling systems could be made more interesting.  What about two different small versions, one that is a military system and is intended for fighters (10% size, 10% rate, 10% cost), and another that is civilian, and doesn't work underway, for point-to-point tankers?  The latter combines with 2B to serve as a secondary fuel handling system for the unrep ships.  It could even transfer at different rates to/from planets and ships.

Actually, that's another question.  Do refueling systems allow transfers both ways?  Could you use one to pick up fuel from a ship and move it to another ship?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 12:22:29 PM by byron »
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Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #132 on: October 04, 2016, 02:08:49 PM »
I'd request a smaller refueling system for use on fighters and smaller ships.  I've found fighter tankers really helpful for a lot of different uses (both for refueling fighters and when a new player under-specs their ship's range), and it would be a shame if they couldn't be built any more.  The same setup would make it cheaper to give capital ships refueling capability.
Will it be possible to have multiple refueling systems on a ship? 
Besides that, though, I really like all of the changes.  Thanks!

The issue would be that if we create a fighter-size component, then it would fit easily on every ship and having the new rules wouldn't make much sense. Having a large refuelling system means that including the system is a decision, rather than automatic. For a fighter-size component to exist, while maintaining the desired game play effect, there would have to be some reason that it would only work with other small craft.

Perhaps, a small component with a very slow refuelling rate - not much use for full size ships but probably fine for fighters that will only have 10-20k fuel. If larger ships mount it, it would provide an emergency (very slow) refuelling system.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 02:10:49 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #133 on: October 04, 2016, 02:16:39 PM »
I've thought this over more, and there are a couple of other things which will come into play:
1. Tankers will take a long time to refuel.  Even a small tanker with 100 HS of fuel will take 100 hours at low tech.  As time goes on, I expect that the growth in refueling rate will outpace the growth of the typical tanker, but it's going to be a problem.  Allowing tanker systems to refuel the tanker itself from the planet will go a long way to solving this (particularly if tankers can have multiple fuel systems).
2. The requirements are going to be annoying for frontier planets, because of the size and cost of spaceports.  I can think of three solutions:
   A. Add in a new structure, of maybe factory size, which serves as a fuel/ordnance hose for maybe a single ship at a time at the normal rate, or even a reduced rate, and multiple structures only allow more ships to rearm/refuel.  That way, you can set up forward fuel/weapons bases, and refuel ships at your new colonies without hauling out huge spaceports.
   B. Allow refueling systems to transfer fuel to/from the planet.  In this case, you'd just have to set up a station ship/tender for the new colony/forward base.  It also solves Problem 1.
   C. Allow very slow transfer of fuel without refueling systems while stationary, both between ships and between ship and planet.  Maybe 5-10% of normal rate, or even a fixed rate of say 5,000 LPH.  This is slow enough that it's not likely to be abused, but also means that when you make a mistake and need to rescue that ship, you don't have to divert a dedicated tanker. 
All three do slightly different things, and could be implemented together.
3. The refueling systems could be made more interesting.  What about two different small versions, one that is a military system and is intended for fighters (10% size, 10% rate, 10% cost), and another that is civilian, and doesn't work underway, for point-to-point tankers?  The latter combines with 2B to serve as a secondary fuel handling system for the unrep ships.  It could even transfer at different rates to/from planets and ships.

Actually, that's another question.  Do refueling systems allow transfers both ways?  Could you use one to pick up fuel from a ship and move it to another ship?

1) Refuelling doesn't work both ways - think about your car at the gas station, or replenishment ships at sea.
2) The new Refuelling Station is intended for colony planets
3) Yes, tankers may take a while to refuel or to unload fuel to planets (perhaps 2-3 days at early tech levels). That is comparable to the real world.
4) Delivering fuel to forward areas will be primarily done by tankers (using their refuelling systems).
5) See my previous post for an idea on a small refuelling system
 

Offline bean

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #134 on: October 04, 2016, 02:28:34 PM »
Perhaps, a small component with a very slow refuelling rate - not much use for full size ships but probably fine for fighters that will only have 10-20k fuel. If larger ships mount it, it would provide an emergency (very slow) refuelling system.
That's more or less what I was proposing, although rereading my post, I didn't mention scaling the rate with size.  Make it 1 HS, and have it be 10% of the normal rate, or something like that.  In any case, that component will be very useful.  If we don't have that, "I lost all of my fuel tanks" will be even more of a death sentence than it is currently.

1) Refuelling doesn't work both ways - think about your car at the gas station, or replenishment ships at sea.
2) The new Refuelling Station is intended for colony planets
3) Yes, tankers may take a while to refuel or to unload fuel to planets (perhaps 2-3 days at early tech levels). That is comparable to the real world.
4) Delivering fuel to forward areas will be primarily done by tankers (using their refuelling systems).
5) See my previous post for an idea on a small refuelling system

1. Understandable, although I'd have to check the unrep manual.
2. 100,000 tons is awfully big for early in the game, unless they can be built in factories like orbital habs.  Also, can those siphon fuel from the planet?
3. I suspect it's going to be longer than that (1 hour/fuel HS is a long time), but it's not the end of the world.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 02:36:36 PM by byron »
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