Author Topic: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point  (Read 2273 times)

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Offline Noble713

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Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« on: March 15, 2016, 12:14:41 PM »
I've fought a few skirmishes against this NPR, and noticed they had significantly slower ships and missiles. So I assumed pushing into one of the main colony systems wouldn't be a big deal. Still, before transiting my entire (small) fleet, I usually send one Task Force through first. That task force was immediately blown to pieces (see the attached image...it's about 100 ships).

I know Aurora is at least somewhat influenced by David Weber's Starfire universe. In Starfire, they invented SBMHAWK (Strategic Bombardment Missile Homing All The Way Killer) Pods, basically automated containers full of box-launchers that they push through a warp point to spam missiles on the opposite side with no warning (and no transit shock). What is the approximate Aurora equivalent of this tactic? A fighter with no engine, just box launchers and a fire control?

One thing I've tried in a previous game was sending normal strike fighters through a constructed jump gate. Sure, some of them get shot down but often they are so fast they can move outside the enemy's energy weapon range, recover from transit shock, and then turn and launch anti-ship missiles.

But against such a huge defensive force, I'd need a dozen supercarriers, to be followed by a dozen assault dreadnoughts with 15 layers of armor or something equally ridiculous. And the dreadnoughts would probably still get shot to pieces. There were ~80 Strength 3-4 energy weapon impacts against my 4 frigates in a span of 60 seconds.

Here is my current primary anti-ship combatant:
Code: [Select]
Luda class Missile Frigate    4,950 tons     138 Crew     1376.2 BP      TCS 99  TH 153.6  EM 0
6464 km/s     Armour 5-25     Shields 0-0     Sensors 14/18/0/0     Damage Control Rating 23     PPV 23.4
Maint Life 3.16 Years     MSP 608    AFR 56%    IFR 0.8%    1YR 91    5YR 1369    Max Repair 640 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 240   

Shenyang M640 Turbo Fusion Drive (1)    Power 640    Fuel Use 129.53%    Signature 153.6    Exp 16%
Fuel Capacity 750,000 Litres    Range 21.1 billion km   (37 days at full power)

Jiangnan BL-6 (6)    Missile Size 6    Hangar Reload 45 minutes    MF Reload 7.5 hours
Jiangnan ML6-75 (4)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 60
Phazotron Missile Director FC54-R20 (1)     Range 54.1m km    Resolution 20
ASM-3 Sarissa (40)  Speed: 40,000 km/s   End: 20.8m    Range: 50m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 186/112/56

NRIET GraDAR MR56-R20 (1)     GPS 1400     Range 56.3m km    Resolution 20
NRIET Thermal Detector 1-14 (1)     Sensitivity 14     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14m km
Phazotron EM Detector 1-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

And I only have about ~15 of these. My research priorities and naval construction are optimized for a small fleet of decent-range missile ships. As for my Energy Weapons, I have a decent Gauss Cannon quad turret for missile defense, Soft X-Ray Lasers, and some moderate research into Meson weapons (480k range @ 20 second recharge). I'm somewhat under-militarized, and totally unprepared for a "Omaha Beach.... in space" scenario. Any suggestions? Note: I'm playing an Earth start with a population of 3 billion, so I have the shipyards and construction factories to churn out a large military quickly, but I'd prefer some clever solutions so I'm not just feeding precious resources into a meatgrinder.
 

Offline ExChairman

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2016, 12:21:03 PM »
Bigger ships with at least 16 layers of armor, I usually builds a cruiser around 20000-25000 tons with 20 in armor and about a 100 box launchers, Size 4 with about 10 million km in range, you will lose a couple of them but if you send in about 10 they should wreak them totally.
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2016, 01:15:37 PM »
80 strength 4 impacts is only 320 damage.  A squadron jump could recover in ~30s, or ~160 damage.  You could easily build an assault ship capable of taking that many hits with the tech level evidenced by your missile frigate.   

There arn't any SBMHAWK equivalents, although fighters can be functionally similar as you have noted. You used to be able to drop mines even while jump shocked, but htat was patched out as an exploit :)

 

Offline Sheb

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 04:40:24 AM »
Kind of exploity, but you could tow in a civilian ball of armor to act as a decoy while your military ships get ready for action.
 

Offline hubgbf

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2016, 05:49:56 AM »
A long time ago I used decoys :

800 tons FAC with huge engines and tons of armor but no weapons.

Once transiting, they separate in several group and immediately go away from the jump point.
They will attract ennemy fire, while being difficult to be shot due to their speed.
Due to their speed the short-ranged ennemy ships will follow them, spreading the ennemy force.

You can then send your main fleet.

The surviving FAC could then be stored somewhere in PDC with hangar.

With tankers and a few jump ships, they can reach attack position withour a carrier.

It is very effective versus AI as they will follow them. Versus a human opponent, you can mix these FAC with box-launcher armed ones.
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 06:49:29 AM »
I've never used it, but isn't there this "distance from jump point" line of research that I thought is supposed to warp you away from those kinds of threats? If that works as I think, all you'd need is a ship faster than their guarding force and then either launchers (not even box necessarily), or just a farther ranging beam weapon if your intelligence can confirm that low-range beamers is all they have there.
Since they only had strength 3 and 4 beam ships there (which I can confirm as Ai tactic so far), their range will always be limited to be below what that distance jump technology and of course higher caliber beams can do. (Strength 3 is just 60k*TL here, and Strength 4 should be 80k*TL)

Another way could probably work, but I haven't tested: Self-guided missiles are probably cleared of the sensor penalty after launch, so since you can just eject tubes, you could make some really short range guided bombs, and put them in said box-launching engine-less fighter or whatever format. Paired into small enough salvos, they would probably pose the most waste efficient ways to clear a fleet without using beams.

Also in 7.2 you could make that 'civil ball of armor' feel much less exploitative, since there are genuine military-civil compound applications arising from civil ammunition and hangar transports. With that you could breach through with a true supercarrier, tank away for distance, and then just unload the ungodly invasion spawn. Tactic might be limited by ship speed of civils though. (and pure stationary tanking makes no sense against beamers, unless you can somehow assure they really only attack the behemoth as a distraction instead of the real threats {would again be AI exploit though})
playing Aurora as swarm fleet: Zen Nomadic Hive Fantasy
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 06:59:21 AM »
I would build special assault cruisers that have tons of: Plasma Carronades, Gauss, Armor, and Shields (30k tons would be around where you might want to hit). Jump those in directly on the point (standard transit) then immediately afterwords jump the rest of the fleet in a distance away (squadron transit).
@Vandermeer The self guided missiles won't be necessary because you can't fire them while in jump shock, and you could build the missile deadlier for short range destruction by putting basically everything into warhead because the range while assaulting would be effectively 0 (but I put sensors on anyway so they can retarget if miss/target-go-boom). So that is another thing you could put on the/another assault cruiser.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 07:13:43 AM »
That you cannot technically fire them is clear, but I meant ejecting the magazines via task force window. As said, I have never tried it, but is this also bared by the shock?
The short range thing I mentioned. A tiny bit you always still need, because the enemy has speed, and you need a missile faster than that at least, and with that comes some minimal fuel, which makes it a "bomb" more than a missile.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 07:15:41 AM by Vandermeer »
playing Aurora as swarm fleet: Zen Nomadic Hive Fantasy
 

Offline Noble713

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 07:35:27 AM »
So I whipped up the design below given the suggestion of "big armored ships with box launchers". While some of the other suggestions look interesting, I picked this due to ease of introduction/parts commonality. Researching the tiny Missile Directors, Box Launcher, and Radar cost ~150 RPs. Everything else is off-the-shelf.

Earlier in this game I designed (but have yet to combat test) a 2-stage size-6 missile, with 4x size-1 warheads. This ship spams those same "sub-munitions"....400 of them. ;D With 10 fire controls I can spread out the ordnance and reduce overkills. The only reason the maintenance life is so high is because I've already had problems with the Missile Frigate's single expensive Fusion Drive breaking down and not being able to repair it because I included too few maintenance points. I kept the design under 10,000 tons for my existing unused destroyer-class shipyards, and as soon as I pre-fab the engines I should be able to churn out 11 at a time rather quickly. While the squadron trains up I can build the 4000+ BP of missiles needed.

Code: [Select]
Massacre class Missile Destroyer    9,350 tons     89 Crew     2081.8 BP      TCS 187  TH 153.6  EM 0
3422 km/s     Armour 20-39     Shields 0-0     Sensors 14/18/0/0     Damage Control Rating 25     PPV 60
Maint Life 5.28 Years     MSP 696    AFR 139%    IFR 1.9%    1YR 42    5YR 626    Max Repair 640 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 400   

Shenyang M640 Turbo Fusion Drive (1)    Power 640    Fuel Use 129.53%    Signature 153.6    Exp 16%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 14.9 billion km   (50 days at full power)

Jiangnan BL-1 (400)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
Phazotron Missile Director FC4-R1 (10)     Range 4.0m km    Resolution 1
ASSM-2 Firestorm (400)  Speed: 29,000 km/s   End: 0.2m    Range: 0.4m km   WH: 4    Size: 1    TH: 222/133/66

NRIET GraDAR MR5-R1 (1)     GPS 28     Range 5.0m km    MCR 549k km    Resolution 1
NRIET Thermal Detector 1-14 (1)     Sensitivity 14     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14m km
Phazotron EM Detector 1-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km

ECM 20

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 07:46:00 AM »
That you cannot technically fire them is clear, but I meant ejecting the magazines via task force window. As said, I have never tried it, but is this also bared by the shock?
Yes. Steve changed it this way because what you suggested used to be an option, so he made it so you can't fire/eject missiles/mines/buoys while in jump shock.
The short range thing I mentioned. A tiny bit you always still need, because the enemy has speed, and you need a missile faster than that at least, and with that comes some minimal fuel, which makes it a "bomb" more than a missile.
I agree 100%.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2016, 01:54:46 PM »
You're building jump ships for them too, right?
 

Offline SerBeardian

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2016, 03:52:03 AM »
Quote from: 83athom link=topic=8432. msg88012#msg88012 date=1458132360
Yes.  Steve changed it this way because what you suggested used to be an option, so he made it so you can't fire/eject missiles/mines/buoys while in jump shock. I agree 100%.

Might be changed in future, but still works in current.  Used it in my LP so I know it works.
 

Offline Noble713

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2016, 07:27:56 AM »
You're building jump ships for them too, right?

Right now I have a single Jump Tender, but I think I'm not doing something correctly. When I've tried to execute squadron jumps with my ~5,000  ton frigates, I was getting messages that they couldn't execute the jump. Can a squadron of ships not use a Jump Tender in a different squadron for a squadron jump? I don't want my commercial jumpships going through the warp point, obviously. So how do I get a squadron of combat ships through a warp point with only a 30-second fire delay? They are smaller than the Jump Tender's mass, smaller than the Military Jump Drive's rating, and the warship squadrons are only 4 ships (the Jump Drive's max). I've built 4x 4-ship squadrons and 2x 3-ship squadrons of the Massacre-class. As soon as the last 3 squadrons finish Task Force Exercises I'll be ready to attack. Hopefully tonight, otherwise it will have to wait until early next week.

Code: [Select]
Panama class Jump Tender    9,850 tons     152 Crew     756.8 BP      TCS 197  TH 800  EM 0
4060 km/s    JR 4-100     Armour 1-40     Shields 0-0     Sensors 14/18/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 0
MSP 144    Max Repair 183 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0   

CERN JM10(4-100) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 10200 tons    Distance 100k km     Squadron Size 4
Khrunichev C400 Mag-Plasma Drive (2)    Power 400    Fuel Use 4.42%    Signature 400    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,750,000 Litres    Range 723.4 billion km   (2062 days at full power)

NRIET Thermal Detector 1-14 (1)     Sensitivity 14     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14m km
Phazotron EM Detector 1-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

 

Offline byron

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2016, 09:31:56 AM »
Can a squadron of ships not use a Jump Tender in a different squadron for a squadron jump?
No, they can't.  You have to have the jump ship in the TF.  A commercial military-grade jump tender sounds like an excellent way to make sure you can get through non-contested JPs, although I can see some merit to making one with lots of armor and a few CIWSs. 
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Assaulting a Fortified Jump Point
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2016, 10:42:29 AM »
In a squadron jump, you can only have one jumpship that works in the TG, and it counts against its own jump limit. So a 4-rating military jump drive will only be able to take 3 other vessels. Otherwise the jump will fail.  (I mean, you can do a squadron jump of all jumpships if you want - as long as its a valid group for one jumpships drive.)

At this point I wouldn't worry about keeping the jumpships intact too much, or training up a military jumpship.  A single tender on the other side will allow your ships to withdraw if need be using standard jumps, and your ships can separate from the jumpship task group in order to make use of their training.  You can establish a better doctrine and dedicated assault jumpships in the future. 

Note that the jump distance tech will place your squadron jumpers further and further out from the JP, buying time to get through jump shock.

@SirBeardian - Sounds like it bugged out again. Oh well~ ;)  just know that its unintended. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 10:44:16 AM by TheDeadlyShoe »
 

 

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