First impressions

[alanwebber]

Dalord

Not sure if that's true. A basic missile (Nuclear Torch Engine and 3 fission warheads) has a signature of 60 (40 for the frame, 4 for the engine and 16 for the 4 CP). PD weapons are +10 to hit missiles. For basic class 1 sensors, this gives 60 (signature) - 40 (resolution) +40 acquisition + 10 (PD weapon). This is a base of 70% hit rate. With 2 HTK, one hit will destroy each missile. However, PD weapons have a maximum range of 8 so, with a thrust of 10, if you launch at 9 or 10 hex range, the defender can only use point blank defence (-10 to hit) giving a final to hit of 60%. My latest designs have 6 missile launchers and 10 PD lasers so most of the missiles will be hit (4 missiles have a 16% chance of getting through and 2 have a 40% chance). I suppose, overall, that that is a pretty fair result. Of course, you can also use the PD lasers to create another volley at the same time if they are not needed for point defence.

My next playtest will pit 2 such destroyers against one another once I can finalise the designs and can stop playing with my grandchildren.

Alan

[Erik L]

This is a reply to Alan's wall of comments

I agree detection is way too simple. I'm toying with both decreasing hull signature by an amount and decreasing sensor resolution.

I did add a bit on movement. Each engine provides innate compensation up to its Thrust, i.e. 4 Thrust = 4 Compensation without additional IC. IC adds to the maximum speed a ship may go in one turn. 4 Thrust + 8 IC = max speed 12. Of course it would take 3 turns to get to that speed.

Engines will now require an additional 100 tons per Thrust.
A Basic Nuke Torch requires a base 350 tons. If it is to provide 4 Thrust, it requires an additional 400 tons for 750 tons total. It consumes 60 power per 1000 tons of ship per Thrust. So your 1500 ton ship requires 120 x 4 or 480 power.
An Improved Plasma Torch requires a base of 300 tons. 4 Thrust moves that to 700 tons. It consumes 24 power per 1000 tons per Thrust. The 1500 ton ship requires 48 x 4 or 192 power.
Looking at the power plants, you've got a Primitive Fission 20 tons, 20 power. So for the 480 power you need 24 plants at 480 tons. This gives your ship 270 tons for weapons/armor/shields/additional power.
The Improved AM plant generates 180 power for 14 tons. Your advanced ship requires 2 plants at 28 tons, leaving 772 tons for extras.

Regarding the missile launchers. Base launchers are now 200 tons, Dual are 350, Rocket Pods are 500.

Missile signatures won't change (for now). Missiles should be hard to lock on to. And hit. A 4cp Basic missile with a Nuke Torch drive =60m. With Basic sensors, the formula would be (60 signature- 40 resolution +40 acquisition) for a net of 60% lock. With a Class 5 sensor, the formula would be 60-5+80 for 135% lock.

ECM has been modified slightly to also reduce the to hit chances of indirect fire weapons including missiles. So a ship with 4th Gen ECM reduces its Signature by 40m, and the To-Hit of seeking weapons by 25%. I'm also toying with the idea of the Stealth generation of the ECM be directly coupled to the reduced resolution of the Sensors. Right now Stealth is a blanket 3x reduction in resolution. With the changes I have in mind, lower tech ECM in stealth mode degrades resolution more than 3x, while higher tech ECM degrades it less (but not below 2x).

Now on to some numbers I've been crunching. A 15,000 ton hull currently has a Signature of 750...

Thought derail. There are technologies that reduce the cost of hull on a per ton basis. I'm thinking of utilizing that same tech line to reduce the hull signature. The current baseline would remain Hull/20. There are 9 levels of Hull cost tech. I'm flipping between each level improving that by 3 or 4. So at top end hull tech you have a cost of 1MCr/ton and Signature is Hull/44 or Hull/52. This puts a 1500 ton hull at 75m at the low end of the tech, and either 34m or 29m at the high end. Using Class 1 sensors, you've got 75m - 40 +40 for 75% lock, to 29m -5+80 for 104% lock. Of course the low end sensor against the high-end hull will result in 29-34% lock chance.

One thing about the PD weapons. They have a +10 to hit, not lock on missiles. Lock on only affects to hits in the fact that no lock = no possible chance to hit. So your basic sensors have 60% lock. Lasers are Class VI, so at max PD range, they have a 68% chance to hit a missile. Point Blank PD would have an 85% chance to hit a missile (Class VI 0 range = 95 - 10 for PB PD). So 6 missile launchers vs 10 PD turrets, I'd say you've got fairly decent odds of stopping the salvo.

Maybe I also just need to declare that a roll of 95+ is a failure on target locks.

[alanwebber]

Erik

Thanks for the reply. I think it would best if I wait till version 4 of the rules comes out and have a reread. There look as though there are some fundamental changes coming along and it would be good to include them in the playtest games.

Alan

[alanwebber]

Hi Erik

I'm off again.

You need to be careful to define speed in a game based on vector mechanics. It's okay if you're going in one direction but not when you start applying thrust in different vectors. e.g. if you're going at speed 4 in direction 000 and you apply 4 thrust in direction 120 what is your speed? Not 8, that's for certain.

If you've got a means of dealing with this, then you don't need to read any further.

If not, I have a suggestion.

Vectors can always be consolidated to a maximum of 2 adjacent vectors (see below). Therefore, speed is defined as the sum of the distance travelled along 2 adjacent vectors e.g. speed 4 in direction 000 and speed 4 in direction 060 = total speed 8.

Okay. Vector consolidation is carried out as follows:-

1) If there are vectors in opposite directions, set the lower one to zero and decrease the opposite one by the same amount. e.g. speed 4 in direction 000. Thrust 2 in direction 180. Result speed 2 in direction 000. That's pretty obvious.

2) If you have 2 adjacent vectors only remaining, then that is fine and the sum is the speed.

3) If you have 2 non-adjacent vectors, then you need to do the following (it doesn't matter if the middle one is zero or not e.g. you could have 4 in 000, 1 in 060 and 3 in 120 or 4 in 000, 0 in 060 and 3 in 120 - the method is the same). Subtract the lower outer vector from both outer vectors and add the figure to the middle vector. In the first example the vectors end up as 1 in 000 and 4 in 060. In the second, you end up with 1 in 000 and 3 in 060.

I hope that's clear. Some diagrams would probably help in the rules.

I hope this is useful. I'll try to keep quiet now until the next version comes out.

Alan

[Erik L]

Hi Erik

I'm off again.

You need to be careful to define speed in a game based on vector mechanics. It's okay if you're going in one direction but not when you start applying thrust in different vectors. e.g. if you're going at speed 4 in direction 000 and you apply 4 thrust in direction 120 what is your speed? Not 8, that's for certain.

If you've got a means of dealing with this, then you don't need to read any further.

If not, I have a suggestion.

Vectors can always be consolidated to a maximum of 2 adjacent vectors (see below). Therefore, speed is defined as the sum of the distance travelled along 2 adjacent vectors e.g. speed 4 in direction 000 and speed 4 in direction 060 = total speed 8.

Okay. Vector consolidation is carried out as follows:-

1) If there are vectors in opposite directions, set the lower one to zero and decrease the opposite one by the same amount. e.g. speed 4 in direction 000. Thrust 2 in direction 180. Result speed 2 in direction 000. That's pretty obvious.

2) If you have 2 adjacent vectors only remaining, then that is fine and the sum is the speed.

3) If you have 2 non-adjacent vectors, then you need to do the following (it doesn't matter if the middle one is zero or not e.g. you could have 4 in 000, 1 in 060 and 3 in 120 or 4 in 000, 0 in 060 and 3 in 120 - the method is the same). Subtract the lower outer vector from both outer vectors and add the figure to the middle vector. In the first example the vectors end up as 1 in 000 and 4 in 060. In the second, you end up with 1 in 000 and 3 in 060.

I hope that's clear. Some diagrams would probably help in the rules.

I hope this is useful. I'll try to keep quiet now until the next version comes out.

Alan

It does make sense. After I drew it out I'll have to come up with some examples to put in the book.

[alanwebber]

Erik

I've quickly read through the v4 playtest rules. I suspect I'll have some questions as I work through the various weapon types but I have a few comments and/or questions.

1) On the subject of missiles, am I right in assuming that they have a speed = thrust? The use of the thrust rating to determine speed could suggest that they increase speed by their thrust rating each turn. e.g. with a thrust of 10, they move at speed 10 on turn 1, 20 on turn 2 etc. Maybe using the title speed rather than thrust would be clearer.

2) Chapters 2 and 3 disagree on the cost for missiles and small craft to change hexsides.

3) I like the surrender roll. Perhaps there could be a penalty associated with how many requirements have been met, maybe higher for lower crew grades?

4) Page 7 - firing - still says percentile roll should be higher than the hit number.

5) It also says weapons may fire once - shouldn't that be determined by rate of fire.

6) Can passive sensors perform target acquisition at reduced range and performance? If not, it seems strange that you can under stealth but not under passives.

7) Applying damage. I think it could be clearer that the total damage points are reduced by the HTK of the damaged system. Also, that a partially damaged system (insufficient remaining damage points to equal the HTK) is regarded as disabled (as per your previous email).

Page 11 - Compensator damage - This should probably say - If the compensators are damaged the ship cannot exceed a speed equal to its engine's thrust rating without penalty (now engines have their own in-built compensators).

9) Coment - Lasers - the maximum detection range from sensors is 35 hexes. Why go above 75 cm aperture when the only advantage is increased range which you can't use. Also, why would you go from 30 to 35 cm aperture as you gain a slight increase in range with a halving of your broadside damage (twice the number HP required)? Perhaps you could get an increased damage potential for each HP increase.

That's all I've spotted for now. I'll need to adjust my spreadsheets for the changes and I think I'll use the starting technologies for the Terrans and start building some basic ships based on the systems available. This should give some interesting match-ups with different weapons.

Regards

Alan

[alanwebber]

Erik

Are lasers the only weapons to suffer from Rate of Fire modifications? Some have a fire delay but all the rest seem to be able to fire every turn. Looking at the damage caused, this seems to give them an advantage over lasers (although some of them only have short ranges). It looks like the only weapons available at low tech (assuming slightly different starting tech) are lasers, mass cannons, kinetic beams, particle beams and particle bombs along with missiles. How do you determine the signature increase for these weapons (other than lasers) - is it based on the power supplied? It is specifically stated for lasers but not for the others. If it's okay, I'll send you an updated spreadsheet with an escort or picket sized ship for each types of weapon for comment via email for comment.

I'm not sure why you have increased the size of missile launchers by so much. It's pushed a ship with 10 missile launchers up in size by 1250 tons which has made the discrepency between a 1 hard point missile launcher and a 1 hard point laser even worse. Just a comment.

Alan

[Erik L]

Erik

I've quickly read through the v4 playtest rules. I suspect I'll have some questions as I work through the various weapon types but I have a few comments and/or questions.

1) On the subject of missiles, am I right in assuming that they have a speed = thrust? The use of the thrust rating to determine speed could suggest that they increase speed by their thrust rating each turn. e.g. with a thrust of 10, they move at speed 10 on turn 1, 20 on turn 2 etc. Maybe using the title speed rather than thrust would be clearer.

2) Chapters 2 and 3 disagree on the cost for missiles and small craft to change hexsides.

3) I like the surrender roll. Perhaps there could be a penalty associated with how many requirements have been met, maybe higher for lower crew grades?

4) Page 7 - firing - still says percentile roll should be higher than the hit number.

5) It also says weapons may fire once - shouldn't that be determined by rate of fire.

6) Can passive sensors perform target acquisition at reduced range and performance? If not, it seems strange that you can under stealth but not under passives.

7) Applying damage. I think it could be clearer that the total damage points are reduced by the HTK of the damaged system. Also, that a partially damaged system (insufficient remaining damage points to equal the HTK) is regarded as disabled (as per your previous email).

Page 11 - Compensator damage - This should probably say - If the compensators are damaged the ship cannot exceed a speed equal to its engine's thrust rating without penalty (now engines have their own in-built compensators).

9) Coment - Lasers - the maximum detection range from sensors is 35 hexes. Why go above 75 cm aperture when the only advantage is increased range which you can't use. Also, why would you go from 30 to 35 cm aperture as you gain a slight increase in range with a halving of your broadside damage (twice the number HP required)? Perhaps you could get an increased damage potential for each HP increase.

That's all I've spotted for now. I'll need to adjust my spreadsheets for the changes and I think I'll use the starting technologies for the Terrans and start building some basic ships based on the systems available. This should give some interesting match-ups with different weapons.

Regards

Alan

1 - Yes.
2 - I'll fix that.
3 - How would you have the crew grade modify the roll? Would an elite crew be more likely to surrender in a hopeless situation or not?
4 - I'll fix that too.
5 - Relic from when there were no increase/decreased rates of fire.
6 - Currently you cannot acquire a target under passives. I'll play around with that a bit.
7 - Good point
8 - Another good point
9 - I will most likely end up increasing sensor ranges.

[alanwebber]

Point 3. I think an elite crew would be more likely to fight on and a green crew to surrender.

Alan

[Erik L]

Point 3. I think an elite crew would be more likely to fight on and a green crew to surrender.

Alan

But wouldn't the elite crew recognize the futility of trying to outrun a faster opponent, or continue to fight on with minimal or no weapons?

I can really see it going either way, actually.

[Erik L]

1 - Yes.
2 - I'll fix that.
3 - How would you have the crew grade modify the roll? Would an elite crew be more likely to surrender in a hopeless situation or not?
4 - I'll fix that too.
5 - Relic from when there were no increase/decreased rates of fire.
6 - Currently you cannot acquire a target under passives. I'll play around with that a bit.
7 - Good point
8 - Another good point
9 - I will most likely end up increasing sensor ranges.

1 - Fixed
2 - Fixed
3 - still open
4 - Fixed
5 - Fixed
6 - Fixed. Stealth is now only an ECM mode. Passives may lock on with -25% chance.
7 - Clarified
8 - Fixed
9 - Still toying with.

[Erik L]

Going back to sensors and range.

The maximum current lock range is 35 hexes, which is just over a light-second. Maximum detection range is 70 hexes, or just over 2 LS. The mod, Basic Sensor Boost provides a 50% increase in targeting range. So the lock range becomes 53 hexes.

Without increasing sensor ranges, the only thing I can think of for lasers would be to decouple range from aperture and put it back on frequency, and shifting damage from frequency to aperture.

[Erik L]

Erik

Are lasers the only weapons to suffer from Rate of Fire modifications? Some have a fire delay but all the rest seem to be able to fire every turn. Looking at the damage caused, this seems to give them an advantage over lasers (although some of them only have short ranges). It looks like the only weapons available at low tech (assuming slightly different starting tech) are lasers, mass cannons, kinetic beams, particle beams and particle bombs along with missiles. How do you determine the signature increase for these weapons (other than lasers) - is it based on the power supplied? It is specifically stated for lasers but not for the others. If it's okay, I'll send you an updated spreadsheet with an escort or picket sized ship for each types of weapon for comment via email for comment.

I am contemplating increasing the rate of fire on lasers, substantially.

I'm not sure I'd call particle beams and particle bombs low tech. Particle bombs need Astrophysics I which requires Physics IV. Normal tech starts are 5000 RP, Low Tech is 3000 RP, and High Tech is 7000 RP. A basic start on tech for a viable ship is 4250 RP. That's only granting lasers as the weapon system. Adding missiles puts you up to 4350. To add mass cannons, you need minimum 1200 RP (Military Science I and Kinetic Wpn Tech I).  Enough digression

Unless otherwise stated (seeking weapons are usually by containment strength), it is by the power used to fire the weapon.

I'm not sure why you have increased the size of missile launchers by so much. It's pushed a ship with 10 missile launchers up in size by 1250 tons which has made the discrepency between a 1 hard point missile launcher and a 1 hard point laser even worse. Just a comment.

Alan

So you are saying missile launchers should be lighter than lasers?

[alanwebber]

Going back to sensors and range.

The maximum current lock range is 35 hexes, which is just over a light-second. Maximum detection range is 70 hexes, or just over 2 LS. The mod, Basic Sensor Boost provides a 50% increase in targeting range. So the lock range becomes 53 hexes.

Without increasing sensor ranges, the only thing I can think of for lasers would be to decouple range from aperture and put it back on frequency, and shifting damage from frequency to aperture.

Erik

At least with a 53 hex targeting range you can fire the laser to its full damage range and beyond. I hesitate to try to suggest anything as so much is interwoven that changing things may unbalance the game in ways I'm not aware of.

A few things I've noticed on the research trees.

Shields VIII has Shield Regen VI, should be Shield Regen IV.
Force Tech II and III have Electron Torpedo Tech I and Proton Torpedo Tech I attached accordingly. However, these shouldn't be available till Physics IV - in fact they're the only tech trees associated with that tech so this looks like a typo. I'm working through these and putting them on a spreadsheet so I should pick up any other anomalies at some point.

Alan

[alanwebber]

I am contemplating increasing the rate of fire on lasers, substantially.

I'm not sure I'd call particle beams and particle bombs low tech. Particle bombs need Astrophysics I which requires Physics IV. Normal tech starts are 5000 RP, Low Tech is 3000 RP, and High Tech is 7000 RP. A basic start on tech for a viable ship is 4250 RP. That's only granting lasers as the weapon system. Adding missiles puts you up to 4350. To add mass cannons, you need minimum 1200 RP (Military Science I and Kinetic Wpn Tech I).  Enough digression

Unless otherwise stated (seeking weapons are usually by containment strength), it is by the power used to fire the weapon.

So you are saying missile launchers should be lighter than lasers?

Just goes to prove I'm still working through the tech trees.

The last question. No but a 1 hardpoint laser is 15 tons, a 1 hardpoint missile launcher is now 200 tons.