Post reply

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Note: this post will not display until it's been approved by a moderator.

Name:
Email:
Subject:
Message icon:

shortcuts: hit alt+s to submit/post or alt+p to preview

Please read the rules before you post!


Topic Summary

Posted by: Gabrote42
« on: November 26, 2021, 07:57:38 PM »

I have always operated on the assumption that traditional minerals and anything made from them is not modeled. I see no reason to not agree with nuclearslurpee here.

Truly there is no better justification for thread necromancy.
I didn't notice I am so sorry
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: November 26, 2021, 07:11:24 PM »

I have always operated on the assumption that traditional minerals and anything made from them is not modeled. I see no reason to not agree with nuclearslurpee here.

Truly there is no better justification for thread necromancy.
Posted by: Gabrote42
« on: November 26, 2021, 06:52:43 PM »

I have always operated on the assumption that traditional minerals and anything made from them is not modeled. I see no reason to not agree with nuclearslurpee here.
Posted by: Rich.h
« on: October 26, 2021, 01:30:44 PM »

While it does start to drift a little from the original topic, perhaps a solution to the OP and future issues could be the introduction of storage facilities, one for minerals, one for fuel, one for missiles and one for everything else. They need not require any population nor upkeep to keep the micro work down. But it would mean you can't just pile up mountains of minerals all on one world etc, with the new spoilers coming too it would mean those offworld colonies used as storage depots need to be looked after both in the RP world and game mechanic one.

I can see where some folks might not agree with this being a good idea. So simply add a game option similar to the free maintenance option we currently have, either "stuff requires storage/stuff can sit anywhere".
Posted by: Bremen
« on: October 26, 2021, 01:24:05 PM »

Problem is that if you want to limit planetary fuel storage, you are opening can of worms. If the fuel storage is limited, should mineral storage and maintenance storage also be limited? And what about missiles. Do you also need planetary magazines to store your missile production?

I wouldn't want to see storage limits on minerals, at least, for micromanagement reasons. MSP and missiles I think could go either way, but the question needs to be asked "does adding this improve the game in any way?" and I'm not sure it does, whereas I can at least see an argument for fuel.

Narratively I think it could be easily rationalized why a colony could store infinite amounts of minerals (and maybe MSP and missiles) but not infinite amounts of fuel simply because fuel is a liquid and therefor needs to be stored in tanks so it doesn't all evaporate or seep into the ground. Ingots of refined minerals can probably just be set in a field somewhere, maybe with a tarp over them in TNEs can corrode, and MSP and missiles probably already have some level of packaging and at most require a fairly basic warehouse.

With the new spoiler race it sounds like the kind of thing that should be held off on for now until we see the emergent gameplay effects of the new race.
Posted by: Density
« on: October 26, 2021, 09:06:39 AM »

I was halfway through replying to Scandinavian when I went to check something and saw that slurpee made my points more eloquently than I was attempting to.

But I will add this: the idea that stuff is piled out in the open just because there isn't an installation in the game that models storage implies that the populations of cc 0 colonies are just sleeping in fields or whatever naturally formed shelter they can find. After all, housing made of conventional materials isn't modelled either.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: October 26, 2021, 08:56:00 AM »

I have completely changed the way I distribute forces because of this threat. The forces involved may be small, but they can wreak havoc in an unprotected system. Therefore I am guarding fuel harvesters, terraformers, smaller colonies, etc.. In my current campaign, I have mobile forces and maintenance facilities setup in fifteen different systems.
Doesn't feel a bit overwhelming having to manage so many dispersed units? Or you design those ships to require minimal babysitting?

All I do is setup the maintenance facilities, leave some fuel and MSP and send the ships. Apart from an occasional check on the MSP level, no further management is required.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: October 26, 2021, 08:24:31 AM »

I think it is important to keep in mind that in Aurora, the cost of things is usually in terms of TNEs, which we can generally assume are not the entire actual building requirement for an entity. The cost of things in good old concrete, steel, etc. is not included and at the scale of the game we can assume these are generally a negligible economic cost compared to the rare TNEs. A manual mine for instance costs 120 corundium (240 shipping tons) yet takes 25,000 tons to ship as cargo, over 99% of that facility is presumably made out of traditional materials. Similar for ground units, a typical early-game medium tank requires just under 5 vendarite to construct but requires 62 tons of transport capacity, and you are not convincing me that a medium tank is 5 tons of tank and 57 tons of supplies.

In the same way I think we can abstract fuel, mineral, etc. storage as being cheaply-built warehouses, tanks, etc. and not the hardened high-tech TNE-enabled construction we use for spaceship or military hardware. As Garfunkel points out, physical storage area is decidedly not an issue, even a small 100 km diameter has some 30,000 km^2 of surface area to work with, if you assume fairly short 10m height storage facilities and that 1 ton = 14 m^3 as Steve has used unofficially elsewhere this comes out to some 22 trillion tons of storage on that small rock, which is far more than the starting facilities on Earth even in a 12b pop start.

I also want to reiterate that besides adding more logistics micro (and not the good kind IMO as there is not really much decision making involved in "this planet is full, we need to dump everything on the nearest moon"), this really would not add as much strategic depth as people are imagining because Aurora is (until v2.0 and the new spoiler race) dominated by jump point network topography and JP defense, and come v2.0 there will be more than enough strategic depth in rear-areas defense for those who want it without resorting to adding new micro-heavy mechanics.
Posted by: Scandinavian
« on: October 26, 2021, 06:28:33 AM »

There's also functionally unlimited surface area on Earth, but this does not mean that fuel can simply be dumped in any conveniently located ravine, nor munitions stacked in any old fenced-in field. At least not if you want it back in a functional state. Even mineral ores will degrade or wash away if you leave them exposed, though you can get away with a lot less care for many of those (especially if you don't have to deal with atmosphere or pilfering population). The point isn't that you run out of space to put the stuff; it is that we might want to model the facilities required to store and handle it in an orderly manner that makes it not degrade or go missing.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: October 26, 2021, 05:54:44 AM »

Limiting storage makes no sense. Even a small asteroid can hold basically infinite amount of fuel or MSP or missiles. This comes up every time someone suggests putting engines on an asteroid to move them and we do the math and people get surprised how massive and big even small asteroids are. Aurora doesn't model the tiny rocks, after all.

This isn't really a problem because of the new spoilers coming in the next version.
Posted by: Bluebreaker
« on: October 26, 2021, 04:22:51 AM »

The new spoiler race coming in v2.0 will go much further towards motivating the use of guard detachments than this proposal, simply because it will bypass the usual jump point network entirely.

I have completely changed the way I distribute forces because of this threat. The forces involved may be small, but they can wreak havoc in an unprotected system. Therefore I am guarding fuel harvesters, terraformers, smaller colonies, etc.. In my current campaign, I have mobile forces and maintenance facilities setup in fifteen different systems.
Doesn't feel a bit overwhelming having to manage so many dispersed units? Or you design those ships to require minimal babysitting?
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: October 26, 2021, 04:10:18 AM »

The new spoiler race coming in v2.0 will go much further towards motivating the use of guard detachments than this proposal, simply because it will bypass the usual jump point network entirely.

I have completely changed the way I distribute forces because of this threat. The forces involved may be small, but they can wreak havoc in an unprotected system. Therefore I am guarding fuel harvesters, terraformers, smaller colonies, etc.. In my current campaign, I have mobile forces and maintenance facilities setup in fifteen different systems.
Posted by: Scandinavian
« on: October 26, 2021, 04:08:25 AM »

Fuel/maintenance/munitions/minerals storage could be a function of the buildings that produce or consume the stored product (mines, factories, maintenance facilities, etc.), the buildings that let you transship them (spaceports, transfer hubs), and amount of infra on the planet (with populated planets automatically converting trade goods infra to planetside infra if they run near their storage capacity). You should probably be allowed to remove non-infrastructure storage generating buildings, even if they would put you over storage capacity (just to avoid micro hell), but you should be required to either discard or lift out excess stores before you can remove infrastructure.

A fringe benefit would be that it would become feasible to make default and conditional orders like "move to nearest planet with less/more than % stockpile and transfer cargo," allowing you to automate the more tedious aspects of intra-empire logistics.
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: October 26, 2021, 03:48:10 AM »

Problem is that if you want to limit planetary fuel storage, you are opening can of worms. If the fuel storage is limited, should mineral storage and maintenance storage also be limited? And what about missiles. Do you also need planetary magazines to store your missile production?

Where one sees a can of worm another sees opportunities :)

I think the issue most players have with these unlimited storages is the ability to dump billions of liters of fuel, millions of tons of minerals, hundreds of thousands of missiles and maintanance supply on any small rock.

So if one were to consider improving the situation then perhaps a good approach would be to start with only allowing bodies above X millions pop unlimited storage space.
Posted by: Black
« on: October 26, 2021, 02:31:47 AM »

Problem is that if you want to limit planetary fuel storage, you are opening can of worms. If the fuel storage is limited, should mineral storage and maintenance storage also be limited? And what about missiles. Do you also need planetary magazines to store your missile production?