Author Topic: Allow genetic modification for modified species  (Read 402 times)

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Offline Cristo (OP)

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Allow genetic modification for modified species
« on: December 06, 2023, 11:46:37 AM »
Edit 2 - I want to fully re-write this so it's more clear.


The basic request is that populations other than the base on could use genetic modification centers.
No change to how specie are designed or invented at all.
This change would allow "outdated" species to be upgraded and avoid bloat in species selection dropdowns.

Old post:
Perhaps technically unfeasable in which case fair play - but to me this is a big deal to not have.

For those unaware you cannot genetically modify species that have already been modified - meaning each time you get a new gene tech if you want to use it you have to start over again, with a new species & new colonies added to the list.

As it is it seems like you can either :
- Not use gene modding
- Use it once or twice at certain fixed tech levels then stop using it
- Use it consistantly
- Regulaly cull "out of date" populations

The problem with 3 is that if you use it a lot then as you invent new genetic tech you will need to constantly invent new species - each of which will be added to an ever growing list with no ability to "upgrade" the old ones.
This results in a mess of populations that will quickly bloat the coloney management (since each population needs it's own coloney.

Edit to be clear - what I'm asking for is to be able to use non starting species as the INPUT for genetic modification on the industry screen, no changes need to be made to how species are designed (on a conceptual level) only the base species should remain the one used as a baseline.

Obvisouly my prefrance is to have the ability to upgrade species added, but short of this has anyone found a way I haven't thought of to productivly engadge with the mechanic?
The best I can think of is reaching a certain tech level you are happy with and then just going from there, never upgrading the techs again to avoid species bloat.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 07:44:02 AM by Cristo »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Allow genetic modification for modified species
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2023, 01:42:49 PM »
I think the idea of the restriction is to close the loophole where you can, in principle, create a species for any environment by repeated applications of low-level gene mods. At some point, it would become more economical to simply mod a species twice than to research an expensive next level of genetics tech. If you already have, for example, +10%, +20%, and +30% temperature mods, it is probably better to mod your base species to +30%, then mod that species by another +30% instead of researching three techs of increasing cost (40%, 50%, 60%) to get the same effect.

Personally, I don't see the need to "cull" out-of-date species. If a species was good enough to settle a particular colony, you can just... leave them there? Let that population grow and then move them to another body with similar characteristics? I think the mistake here is the assumption that you (1) must invent new species whenever you have new genetics tech, and/or (2) must use the latest/highest level of genetics tech exclusively. Rather, I think the idea is that we should design a species for a specific purpose, i.e., to colonize a specific body or set of bodies. From that perspective, there is not really such a thing as an "obsolete species", merely species suitable for different missions.

That said, I would like to see something done here as it is an arbitrary restriction and that means we can do better somehow. One idea is that genetic modification techs should apply to single species - this makes sense, if we research the human genetic code and devise a way to give humans +20% gravity tolerance, it makes sense that we would need to re-learn the genetic coding of the high-gravity human species in order to give them (an additional) +20% gravity tolerance. Maybe there is something there as long as the balance of research costs is close enough that both options are viable so a decision is created for the player.
 

Offline Cristo (OP)

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Re: Allow genetic modification for modified species
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2023, 03:36:16 PM »
If you keep the restriction on *creating* species to the default but then allowing the resulting new species to be applied to any then you get the desired effect. I agree stacking bonuses on bonuses is to be avoided - fortunately it's easy to do so!
To make that totally clear - the "design species" element remains exactly the same in my envisioned future (only the base species is an input), only the viable input materials for your new species actual industrial production change.


-I think the mistake here is the assumption that you (1) must invent new species whenever you have new genetics tech, and/or (2) must use the latest/highest level of genetics tech exclusively.#

I don't assume that you must do these! I list "use it consistantly" as an option and then lay out why I don't *want* to do that.

- must invent new species whenever you have new genetics tech
I grant you needen't do this - but wouldn't the ideal system allow this? Imagine a defence along the same lines saying "of course you can only reasonanbly use every other engine tech level. Sure you can hamper yourself and limit your engadgement with the mechanic - but how much better would it be to not have too!

-must use the latest/highest level of genetics tech exclusively
the desire here is very simple - many drop downs are going to get very cluttered if you don't. As someone that wants to maintain 5 species (base upgrade, higher grav, lower grav, higher temp, lower temp) there are what, 8 levels of upgrades? Meaning that if I always want to colonise the worlds newly possible to get to 0.0 with a species designed to do that as soon as tech allows I am going to end up with around 40 species, more if I include upgrading temp range on each of the 4 specialised ones. That's a lot of clutter that could be solved by what is (conceptually though quite possible not mechanically) a very simply fix.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2023, 03:49:55 PM by Cristo »
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Allow genetic modification for modified species
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2023, 11:46:38 PM »
 --- Having the option to update old species as a Biology Tech would be actually quite nice. Have it use the latest/greatest techs as an upper limit, while the conversion rate is a tech line that allows improvements to said conversion rate.

 --- Likewise, this would dovetail nicely into an option to add extra options in. One tech line for improvement rate, itself using the above conversion rate tech as a perquisite to help gate it and slow it down. The second would improve how much... well improvement you could get from it.

 --- For gameplay balance and simplicity's sake, since this could get quite complex and messy otherwise, these two options should be mutually exclusive with each other. You cannot enhance an improved race, and you cannot improve and enhanced race.

Examples:

 --- Improvement Conversion Rate, 10% of Modification Cap per annual. So if I have enough Gene Mod Centers to mod 1m colonists a year, I can improve 100k colonist per year.
 --- Enhancement Conversion Rate, 20% of Improvement Cap per annual. So if I have enough Gene Mod Centers to mod 1m colonists a year, I can enhance 20k colonist per year.
 --- Enhancement Cap, 0.25x of Highest Tech. So if my Gravity Tolerance tech is +20%, I add a +5% Gravity Tolerance on top of an existing species traits.