Author Topic: Titan base temp  (Read 5401 times)

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Offline Ziusudra (OP)

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Titan base temp
« on: March 16, 2011, 12:55:34 PM »
So I'm looking at the system view.  Saturn and all it's moons have a surface and base temperature of -178, except Titan which has surface -178 but base -196. 4.  It has a greenhouse factor of 1. 24 from the methane.

Why would it have a lower base temp?

Is this a bug or is there something else I'm missing?
 

Offline Tarran

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2011, 04:04:31 PM »
I don't think it's a bug, since the surface temperature is exactly the same as the other moons. Bugs wouldn't do that. I think Steve lowered the base temperature intentionally so with the greenhouse gasses it starts with it's still the same surface temperature as other moons around it. Or something. I guess it makes sense.

Personally, I don't like it, it makes Titan impossible to get to 0 Colony cost, while all the other Saturn moons can, which doesn't make sense in it's own right.
 

Offline Ziusudra (OP)

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2011, 06:03:49 PM »
But that's what I don't understand; why would it have the same surface temperature as all its greenhouse gasless siblings?
 

Offline Tarran

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2011, 06:52:35 PM »
But that's what I don't understand; why would it have the same surface temperature as all its greenhouse gasless siblings?
Apparently this is the reason:
The haze in Titan's atmosphere contributes to the moon's anti-greenhouse effect by reflecting sunlight back into space, making its surface significantly colder than its upper atmosphere. The moon receives just about 1% of the amount of sunlight Earth gets. Titan's clouds, probably composed of methane, ethane or other simple organics, are scattered and variable, punctuating the overall haze. This atmospheric methane conversely creates a greenhouse effect on Titan's surface, without which Titan would be far colder.
So while there may be a greenhouse effect, there's also a anti-greenhouse effect. Thus the two pretty much negate each-other out.
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 09:49:08 PM »
Personally, I don't like it, it makes Titan impossible to get to 0 Colony cost, while all the other Saturn moons can, which doesn't make sense in it's own right.
Why is it impossible to get to 0? Is the atmospheric pressure above human tolerances (I think that's 3.0atm?) even if you remove all the nitrogen and methane and replace them with enough safe GG to get temperature to habitable + 0.1atm Oxygen?
 

Offline Tarran

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 10:47:39 PM »
Why is it impossible to get to 0? Is the atmospheric pressure above human tolerances (I think that's 3.0atm?) even if you remove all the nitrogen and methane and replace them with enough safe GG to get temperature to habitable + 0.1atm Oxygen?
No, it's because the base temperature is far lower than the minimum for cost 0 colony cost at albedo 1.0.

Here, let me compare:
Base temp of other Saturn moons: 95K/-178.15C
Minimum base temp: 91.05K/-182.1C
Base temp of Titan: 76.6K/-196.55C

Why does the base temperature matter? Well, look at the formula for how hot the surface temperature is:
Quote from: Terraforming tab
Surface Temperature in Kelvin = Base Temperature in Kelvin x Greenhouse Factor x Albedo
Greenhouse Factor = 1 + (Atmospheric Pressure /10) + Greenhouse Pressure   (Maximum = 3.0)

That means the surface temperature of all the following at the absolute max (x3) GH factor at 1.0 Albedo (which all bodies in the solar system besides Asteroids [and Caliban for some reason] are at) would be:
Max temp of other Saturn moons: 285K/11.85C
Minimum max temp: 273.15K/0C
Max temp of Titan: 229.8K/-43.35C

Thus, it's utterly impossible without hacking the game to get Titan at 0 Colony cost. If you don't believe me, you can always try yourself.

Here for C/F/K conversion: http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 10:55:17 PM by Tarran »
 

Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 07:33:09 AM »
Actually it is possible if you wander a bit into the Biology techtree.
"Share and enjoy, journey to life with a plastic boy, or girl by your side, let your pal be your guide.  And when it brakes down or starts to annoy or grinds as it moves and gives you no joy cause its has eaten your hat and or had . . . "

- Damaged robot found on Sirius singing a flat 5th out of t
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 03:22:59 PM »
So I'm looking at the system view.  Saturn and all it's moons have a surface and base temperature of -178, except Titan which has surface -178 but base -196. 4.  It has a greenhouse factor of 1. 24 from the methane.

Why would it have a lower base temp?

Is this a bug or is there something else I'm missing?

No, its not a bug. The Sol system was typed into the database rather than being generated so there will be some oddities. If the Aurora version doesn't match the actual known conditions for a planet, let me know and I will update it.

Steve
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 07:46:05 PM »
No, it's because the base temperature is far lower than the minimum for cost 0 colony cost at albedo 1.0.

Here, let me compare:
Base temp of other Saturn moons: 95K/-178.15C
Minimum base temp: 91.05K/-182.1C
Base temp of Titan: 76.6K/-196.55C

Why does the base temperature matter? Well, look at the formula for how hot the surface temperature is:
That means the surface temperature of all the following at the absolute max (x3) GH factor at 1.0 Albedo (which all bodies in the solar system besides Asteroids [and Caliban for some reason] are at) would be:
Max temp of other Saturn moons: 285K/11.85C
Minimum max temp: 273.15K/0C
Max temp of Titan: 229.8K/-43.35C

Thus, it's utterly impossible without hacking the game to get Titan at 0 Colony cost. If you don't believe me, you can always try yourself.

Here for C/F/K conversion: http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm

Ah, I didn't realise there was a hard maximum on the greenhouse effect.  Why is that, exactly? Is there a real-world reason why atmospheric energy retention can only get you so much warming, or is it just a gameplay thing?
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 08:19:34 PM »
Ah, I didn't realise there was a hard maximum on the greenhouse effect.  Why is that, exactly? Is there a real-world reason why atmospheric energy retention can only get you so much warming, or is it just a gameplay thing?

The 2nd law of thermodynamics :-)

If the sun is at 6,000K, it's not going to be able to heat a planet up to 10,000K in a sustained way - otherwise energy would be flowing from low temperature to high temperature, which can't be done without expending "free energy" (a technical term in thermodynamics, which basically means useful energy that you can get work out of) somewhere else - otherwise you violate the 2nd law.  For example, an air conditioner only works because there's a power plant somewhere that's burning coal, which has a lot of free energy stored in it which is released by the burning and used by the power plant.

In reality, it won't even get the planet up to 6,000K.  The way the greenhouse effect works is that a body has a different albedo (how efficiently it both radiates and absorbs energy - they have to be the same) at different wavelengths.  Lower temperature bodies want to radiate at longer wavelengths - think of orange coals vs. white flame in a fireplace.  So if you have a body which neither absorbs nor radiates at long wavelengths (low temperatures) but absorbs and radiates well at short wavelengths (high temperatures) and shine high-temperature light on it (from the sun) it will heat up more than one that has a uniform albedo.  Basically it needs to heat up more in order to radiate the absorbed energy away.  But if the threshold for change in albedo is too high, it won't absorb any energy in the first place, so the effect is cut off.

John
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 08:33:55 PM »
Right, that makes limited sense to me, but since I only have a limited knowledge of physics, that is good enough.  Thanks. :D
 

Offline Ziusudra (OP)

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 11:35:52 PM »
No, its not a bug. The Sol system was typed into the database rather than being generated so there will be some oddities. If the Aurora version doesn't match the actual known conditions for a planet, let me know and I will update it.

Steve
No, from what I've read the surface temperature and atmospheric composition are correct. (Though, Titan is thought to have considerable water ice.)

The issue with the too low base temperature is that the game doesn't account for cloud albedo. In the case of the actual Titan, the temperature is low enough that the methane condenses into thick clouds with a high albedo that offset the methane's greenhouse effect.

The ideal would be a calculated cloud albedo, based on temperature and boiling points of atmospheric gasses, that would then be included into the greenhouse factor calculation. But, that may to much work for too little reward.
 

Offline Shoku

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2011, 07:44:19 PM »
Quote from: sloanjh link=topic=3360.   msg32291#msg32291 date=1300411174
The 2nd law of thermodynamics :-)

If the sun is at 6,000K, it's not going to be able to heat a planet up to 10,000K in a sustained way - otherwise energy would be flowing from low temperature to high temperature, which can't be done without expending "free energy" (a technical term in thermodynamics, which basically means useful energy that you can get work out of) somewhere else - otherwise you violate the 2nd law.     For example, an air conditioner only works because there's a power plant somewhere that's burning coal, which has a lot of free energy stored in it which is released by the burning and used by the power plant.   

In reality, it won't even get the planet up to 6,000K.     The way the greenhouse effect works is that a body has a different albedo (how efficiently it both radiates and absorbs energy - they have to be the same) at different wavelengths.     Lower temperature bodies want to radiate at longer wavelengths - think of orange coals vs.    white flame in a fireplace.     So if you have a body which neither absorbs nor radiates at long wavelengths (low temperatures) but absorbs and radiates well at short wavelengths (high temperatures) and shine high-temperature light on it (from the sun) it will heat up more than one that has a uniform albedo.     Basically it needs to heat up more in order to radiate the absorbed energy away.     But if the threshold for change in albedo is too high, it won't absorb any energy in the first place, so the effect is cut off.   

John
That's not the way this works at all.    The sun is constantly expending atomic energy to produce all that heat.    In turn the very hot and dense hydrogen at the surface of the sun has to get rid of that heat somehow or else it would be much hotter.    Heat doesn't travel through a vacuum but light does so the light from this hot gas leaves the Sun.    The energy from the Sun going to some planetoid doesn't have anything to do with how how the target is.   

Instead we have two things on the target that control the temperature.    We know that a thing is white if it reflects a lot of light (and there is roughly white light pointed at it,) and that is the albedo.    If the light isn't reflected it is absorbed, and just like physically hitting an object that makes it heat up a tad.    In turn for the planet to give off heat it also does this as light- but different wavelengths.    Hotter things give off shorter wavelengths of light.   

After that greenhouse gases are like a hot car in the Summer.    Visible light goes in through your windshield and if it is reflected it goes right back out.    If it is absorbed it heats the seats and things up and then later they eject some of their heat as light, mostly infrared.    If you're talking about infrared light glass and greenhouse gases aren't transparent at all- they're more like a solid lightish gray for that section of the spectrum.   

So this gives us a really different answer for why greenhouse gases can't heat up a planet more than the star the light is coming from: if the gases are catching 100% of the infrared (or whatever range of colors it catches) then the planet will heat up until it gives off colors of light they don't catch.   
*and if they stop all colors of light they're anti-greenhouse gases because the light can't get in in the first place.   
**and the planet can only have 50% of it's surface pointing at the star to catch light while 100% of it can be giving off light as it cools- though the light it gets from a star is even less that 50% of the area.    Instead the equivalent area of light it gets is the cross section of the planet.   

-

I don't think the equations in game really reflect this real world function but the upper limit is most likely a shortcut for getting a similar effect.   

*You can also lose atoms from your atmosphere and heat with them.   On geologically active worlds there is usually a magnetosphere to keeps the solar wind from making ions out of your water vapor and such but the game doesn't seem to touch on this at all. 
Uhm, not the point I meant to make.
Starting over (not entirely) at basically every temperature hot (as in not super-cold) material gives off at least a little short wavelength light.  You hit a point where you're giving off lots of light that will get past greenhouse gases well before you're actually giving off mainly visible light (meaning when the ground would be "red hot. ")
Look up black body radiation if you want to know more about what light things give off.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 08:32:49 PM by Shoku »
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2011, 09:48:33 PM »
*SNIP*
So this gives us a really different answer for why greenhouse gases can't heat up a planet more than the star the light is coming from: if the gases are catching 100% of the infrared (or whatever range of colors it catches) then the planet will heat up until it gives off colors of light they don't catch. 
Ummm that's what I said (read my second paragraph again, substitute "infrared" for "long wavelengths" and "colors of light they don't catch" for "short wavelengths").
Quote
I don't think the equations in game really reflect this real world function but the upper limit is most likely a shortcut for getting a similar effect. 
I'm sure they don't :)  I'm pretty sure Steve just threw a number in there to get some sort of cutoff.
Quote
 
Starting over (not entirely) at basically every temperature hot (as in not super-cold) material gives off at least a little short wavelength light.  You hit a point where you're giving off lots of light that will get past greenhouse gases well before you're actually giving off mainly visible light (meaning when the ground would be "red hot. ")
Again, that's what I said.  I guess I should have filled in the dots a little more :)  And as for not giving off visible light, that depends on the incoming energy flux.  If you put a Dyson sphere a few km above the surface of the sun, it should end up at the surface temperature of the sun because the sun is (I assume) radiating as a black body - the sphere will heat up until it's hot enough to radiate at the same rate (getting rid of the fusion energy).
Quote
Look up black body radiation if you want to know more about what light things give off.
Actually, I'm a physicist - at some point in the distant past of thermo class, they made me derive the black body distribution :) I also can remember deriving the temperature of the Earth, assuming it's a perfect black body, by balancing incoming solar radiation with outgoing black-body radiation.  The part that amazed me is that it comes out right at ~300K, i.e. the actual temperature.

John
 

Offline EarthquakeDamage

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Re: Titan base temp
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2011, 10:51:14 PM »
No, its not a bug. The Sol system was typed into the database rather than being generated so there will be some oddities. If the Aurora version doesn't match the actual known conditions for a planet, let me know and I will update it.

Steve

If you change anything in Sol, maybe you can add some Sol-specific planet images while you're there.  :)  Those generic blue spheres bug me.