Author Topic: Trade Network and civvy spaceports  (Read 4105 times)

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Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« on: June 09, 2011, 07:30:17 PM »
I've seen reading suggestions for, and suggesting things about, the trade network.  We want more vigorous trade, and smoother flow of civ ships from the core to the fringe.  We also want to avoid imbalance where ships get stuck five jumps out and don't pick up on the ample opportunity in the empire core.  One wants to especially avoid having to chain supply\demand orders to micromanage traffic.

As I understand it, the present challenge with smarter handling of trade is the amount of processor time it takes for civilian ships to locate opportunities with each additional jump.  Most of those processor hits, however, are worthless-- a lot of the stars have nothing in them or no substantial development.
In the suggestion thread I made a once-off comment about basing the trade network around the civilian spaceports, which in my opinion are under utilized, serving only as planetary cargo handling systems.  http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,2828.msg35508.html#msg35508

My suggestion, then, is to alter the logic for searching for trade opportunity.  In simplest form:

*Instead of searching 4 jumps out from the present location, search 3 jumps out from the present location + systems with civilian spaceports.*  In this way, we cut some of the exponential growth of system searching by shaving one level off the list, but enable ships to cross the entire settled empire. The increase in processor time should be linear with empire size, rather than exponential.   

This way, if you have a chain of systems 8 stars long, those are all added singly to the opportunity list, but the ships don't look out the branching paths along each step in those warp chains.  They only look at the branching paths from their current location.

As a modification, I would further suggest something that looks not unlike the sector system system.  This provides a little end-user control over the system.  Systems with civ spaceports populate the right window, and the systems in the trade network populate the left.  You could then add and remove systems from the list.  Say, for example, you capture an alien world 6 jumps out that has a spaceport.  You might not necessarily want half your civilian fleet to zing out there immediately. 

Challenges and prospects: you don't want every freighter to decide to criss cross the entire trade network at each stop-- occasionally local runs are good and long range runs are good, but once the civilian trade network gets large enough it all smoothes out anyway.  Extended empires are also difficult to handle.  Once you get a long enough chain of colonies... some weighting might be needed to prevent transiting from one end to the other.  Further, this topic has not yet addressed deepening the function of civ spaceport level.  In principle, I could imagine using the spaceport level to denote commercial hubs, whereby civvies will tend to prefer aggregate at high level systems, go on short runs to nearby lower level systems, and return, with additional logic included to send them to another more distant hub.  Logic of this type may help prevent bouncing between lvl 1 spaceports on opposite ends of the empire.

Cheers!

 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2011, 01:39:12 PM »
It's an interesting suggestion. I do have a couple of concerns though plus I think there is a change in v5.50 that might help the situation anyway

The first issue, although its relatively easy to solve, is that checking the surrounding systems for spaceports is no quicker than checking the surrounding systems for anything else. I could however flag spaceport systems during the 5-day increment and check the flag before I look in depth at a system.

The second issue is that you would have to build civilian spaceports in every system along your chain. There are three problems here. The first is that some systems don't have any planets. The second is that systems may have planets but only unsuitable ones and bulding a 2400 BP installation on those is going to be very difficult. The third is that this would allow you to have strong control over civilian traffic, which isn't really what was intended for the civilian sector.

However, there is a change in v5.50 that might ease the 4-jump bottleneck. The Civilian Colonisation status for pops over 25m can now be set to Destination, Source or Stable. Stable means neither a source nor a destination. This means that once you establish a first ring of colonies you can switch off your homeworld, or major population centres, and your civilian colony ships will start using your colonies as the base for further expansion. In my own game my state-controlled colony ships are feeding the first ring of colonies while the civilian colony ships are using those colonies as the base for outward expansion.

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2011, 05:02:19 PM »
Good to hear.
Great, actually.
Though that still makes for trade ships locked up in the arse end of nowhere, or does it?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 05:03:57 PM by UnLimiTeD »
 

Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2011, 06:39:56 PM »
Those changes sound great!  Thanks for taking a look.  I certainly don't understand how the search logic is currently written, which is why I thought that having a premade list of "these systems have viable trade opportunities" would save processor time.  Each ship can check the list, then do their own thing.  I also presumed that if the user must populate said list, as with sectors, then there needs to be less searching per ship. As for empty systems, I would have also considered that the trade chain need not be continuous, they simply know to path themselves to the system.  I just feel like there should be some kind of "if idle fly to largest spaceport" logic, but i see how the search for the stupid civ centers comes back as the big problem.  Every ship thats idle then has to do a long calculation.  

The point where I'm getting a bit frustrated is that sometimes civilian freighters just won't pick up contracts and deliver them.  Things get a little wild when you want to transport 600 fighter factories 6 jumps.  It must be done in fits and starts, and then something needs to happen to bring those transports BACK to the core for the next pickup.  Once you carry a bunch of stuff OUT, theres nothing to bring back.  I understand the desire to keep trade emergent, and I like that, but...


An alternative model:

Tickbox at game setup: automated civilian trading On Off -- if ticked on, model runs as it is now.  If off:

Civ spaceports have a "range," just like sector centers.  Diminishing returns, so to get 8 jumps out from a single center requires a buttload of spaceports.  Open the trade sector setup window, and all "in range" systems are noted.  Click over the populated ones, or the ones you would like to BE populated.  In this way, you could have a level 1 spaceport that extends the network upchain, while keeping empty systems available.
Then search this list and search it only, which would HOPEFULLY help reduce overhead?  But there we get back into the whole "i don't really know how the program is set up at all in the first place so..."




I then got thinking about convoys of civilian freighters in systems with no planetary bodies.  You know what would be awesome for those systems?

PIRATES

Cloaked vessels occupying cloaked spacestations out in the void that prey on civilian ships, then try to tractor the wrecks back to their base.  Would a cloaked tractor ship cloak a towed wreck?  Hee hee!
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2011, 07:22:44 PM »
The first issue, although its relatively easy to solve, is that checking the surrounding systems for spaceports is no quicker than checking the surrounding systems for anything else. I could however flag spaceport systems during the 5-day increment and check the flag before I look in depth at a system.

The second issue is that you would have to build civilian spaceports in every system along your chain. There are three problems here. The first is that some systems don't have any planets. The second is that systems may have planets but only unsuitable ones and bulding a 2400 BP installation on those is going to be very difficult. The third is that this would allow you to have strong control over civilian traffic, which isn't really what was intended for the civilian sector.

There's a solution to both of these issues: "Designated Trade Routes Between Spaceports".

Both of the issues you (Steve) bring up are related to having the computer calculate the shortest route from system A to system B.  This will typically result in (approximately) exponential computational cost as the number of jumps checked increases because the computer has to brute force it.

Humans are much better at this sort of thing than computers are, though.  If I want to regularly have civies carry stuff between two systems A and B 8 jumps apart, why not let me specify the route the civvies will take?  This could then be treated in the search algorithm as a special kind of jump - add up the total time/distance along the route, and treat it as a single "fake jump".  The computer could then stick with a 4 (or even 3) system radius for its automated search....

John

 

Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 09:43:59 PM »
Thats a reasonably elegant solution, i think!
 

Offline Beersatron

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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 11:06:23 PM »
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,2828.msg35506.html#msg35506

I know - it's been mentioned before; sorry for the lack of citation (all I can plead is senility :) ).  I think I brought it up too a couple of years ago.
 

Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2011, 12:07:23 AM »
haha yes, this thread was originally birthed from that comment.  but, like so many other scientists, i resorted to self citation.
 

Offline Beersatron

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2011, 11:56:50 AM »
Sorry, wasnt trying to shoehorn in and say I was there first! Just wanted to put down my +1 since the civvies are not servicing my newest colony that is 4 jumps out.
 

Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2011, 12:54:44 PM »
I noticed that too, actually-- theyre delivering contracts 3 jumps out... but not 4.
 

Offline Bgreman

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2011, 06:01:00 PM »
I'd like to throw my hat in the ring on this one. 

I could envision two separate types of civilian shipping operations.    One would be short-distance (3-4 jumps) general trading, which we have now.    Specify supply and demand amounts as happens now.    To combat civilian fringe-lock (where freighters get stuck on the fringe with no contracts to lure them home), have each shipping line have a home system.    Instead of using the current location of the ship as its source for searching for short-range opportunities, it uses the home system.    Idle ships gravitate back toward their home systems.    This would set up regional "hubs" of localized shipping.    A disadvantage to having this system in place is that freighters will spend a larger proportion of their time empty as compared to now.    I'd compensate for this by reducing operating cost and increasing the income ships get when they DO perform a delivery. 

To move that mass driver 4+ jumps across your empire, you'd utilize a new addition: long-distance (LD) shipping.    It would require a special UI, but the way it'd work is you'd specify your origination point and the destination point, as well as the specific cargo.    I.  e.  , instead of having 200 mines "up for grabs" on Earth, and 40 mines "generally wanted" at Omicron Persei 8, 7 jumps away, you'd specify, "Deliver 200 mines from Earth to Omicron Persei 8".    As soon as you "confirm" this contract, the game would calculate the route and a general profit/time rating.    From here there are two options:

1) A local shipping company as above would decide to take this contract and allocate enough of its freighters to execute it. 
2) There are specific shipping lines who only deal in long-distance contracts. 

In the long run, I'd like to see companies make bids on long-distance contracts.    So you'd make the contract public, as it were, wait some time, and each line would evaluate its ability to execute the contract, its estimated profitability (based on the number, capacity, and speed of its freighters) and submit a bid, with some randomization in to simulate undercutting and edging profit margins.    In the very long run, lines could receive perks for being regularly chosen for LD shipping contracts. 

I think this addresses the common concern of having to get components halfway across your empire, while still allowing the more free-form localized trading.    There's not a huge performance hit, as the pathfinding for LD contracts is done when you create the contract, instead of at every interval, and the lines only decide whether or not to take the contract one time (or, perhaps, each time they launch a new ship that adjusts their total haulage capabilities,  and the contract still exists, ). 

If you were really savvy or into micromanagement, you could setup hub+spoke models, where you ship installations directly between two "hub" locations, and then allow the local shipping lines to distribute the installations according the short-distance model.    Alternately, it could be that the only viable destinations for LD shipping are locations with commercial spaceports, maybe even to the point where to be eligible to be an originator or destination of a LD contract of X jumps, the location has to have a spaceport of size X-4 (or 3, if you limit local shipping to 3 jumps).    I.  e.  , a 5 jump contract would require a size 1 (or 2) spaceport at each end of the route.    This gives spaceports a role besides being cargo handling improvements. 

Regarding trade goods, on a local level they'd work the same.   On a long distance level, I can envision "trade partners", widely separated colonies that engage in LD contracts with each other behind the scenes, based on their spaceport level.

For refinements, I'd like to see civilian spaceport complexes built up on inhabited colonies rather like civilian mining complexes are now, perhaps based on trade income at that colony, obviously with diminishing returns.   Thus, while you could manually expend the resources to build up your trade infrastructure at some world, if it was naturally generating a lot of trade, the civilian sector would build up the world itself.   Diminishing returns obviously.

I'd also like to see freighters cost less as time goes by since the design was first produced and/or the number of ships of that class increases (though this is something I'd like to see for all ships, not just civilian ships).   One final little niggle is that I'd like it if we could specify that a ship design is a derivative or refit of a different design.   I. e. , my Outreach Mk II freighter is a derivative design of my Outreach Mk I.   Flagging them this way would allow me to more easily refit my own, and more importantly, allow the civvies to refit their ships if they felt it was economical to do so.   Civvies would only consider refitting ships to a new design that was marked as derivative of the current design, and would not step down the chain.   I. e. , if I also have an Outreach Mk III, that is a derivative of the Outreach Mk II, a civvie will not consider refitting a Mk I to a Mk III.   It will only consider refitting to Mk II.   It will also never refit if it is cheaper to just build a new ship to get the same increase in "haulage capability".

So many thoughts!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 06:12:50 PM by Bgreman »
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 08:31:34 AM »
I see a lot of posts on here that seem to boil down to "I can't run my empire on 100% civilian transport."  I want to reiterate my vote for "You shouldn't be able to run your empire on even 50% civilian transport."  In fact, other than the admitted problem of civilians getting 'stuck' at the end of long chain*, I don't have a problem with the way they operate now.

No, let me say this, I like the way civilians operate now.  They should have major drawbacks compared to government transport, given that civilians cost no (government) minerals, maintenance, time or fuel to construct/operate and actually produce money.

Actually, there is one change I'd make - add minerals to civilian contracts.  I estimate my freighter traffic is as much as 40% minerals (since I don't use mass drivers) and it seems silly that civilians will move buildings but not rocks.


*Clear orders on the stuck freighters.  Use SM mode to put a Genetic Modification Centre - or some other installation that would be 'out-of-character' - on the colony world, then issue a contract supplying one GMC at your outpost and demanding one at your capital (or whatever hub you'd like).  Increment 5 days and repeat as needed to get all the 'stuck' freighters unstuck.  Remove GMCs when done.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2011, 08:58:06 AM »
I see a lot of posts on here that seem to boil down to "I can't run my empire on 100% civilian transport."  I want to reiterate my vote for "You shouldn't be able to run your empire on even 50% civilian transport."  In fact, other than the admitted problem of civilians getting 'stuck' at the end of long chain*, I don't have a problem with the way they operate now.

Do you include "I'd like it if Aurora had better path-finding routines" in this category?  

From my point of view, the 4-jump limit is an artificial artifact of the exponential search algorithm.  And I find it a bit frustrating that the civies ignore an 8-jump route that's actually twice as short as a 4-jump route to the same place.  I'd also like to be able to take advantage of pre-definied route when I'm giving player-run TG orders on the F12 screen (it gets really old clicking the same 6 jumps in over and over and over and over and over....)  I don't want the civies to handle all my cargo/colony needs.  One other thing: when I look at my nexus systems and see the stream of civies going between trade locations it makes me think "this really looks like real shipping lanes - now we just need some pirates to harass them!"

The other thing that I think is a flaw in the way the civies operate right now (which I haven't yet brought up) is that they don't seem to rate route choices by expected revenue.  In my current game, I was making a ton of money on the Earth-Mars run.  Then an NPR whose homeworld is 3 months away (each way) granted me trade access, and revenue plummetted when almost all of my freighters went onto that route.  Apparently (and I think I remember this from when civies were introduced) the payoff for a cargo is independent of the distance traveled, and the civies don't prefer shorter routes over longer routes.  Either one of these two things is ok in isolation, but in combination they don't really make sense.  Either civies should be looking hard for short routes or the payoff should have a distance factor included (which would actually help with trade revenue as engine tech improved, now that I think of it).

John

 

Offline jseah

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Re: Trade Network and civvy spaceports
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2011, 09:24:48 AM »
I see a lot of posts on here that seem to boil down to "I can't run my empire on 100% civilian transport."  I want to reiterate my vote for "You shouldn't be able to run your empire on even 50% civilian transport."  In fact, other than the admitted problem of civilians getting 'stuck' at the end of long chain*, I don't have a problem with the way they operate now.
I would argue in reverse. 

Military ships, being the ones with the beams and missiles, shouldn't be required when there is nothing to shoot. 

Government intervention should not be *required* to move virtually anything.  For priority dispatches and military transport, sure, you'd want to use government-owned freighters on hand to move those PDC parts the instant they get built.  Even then, I'd say that civilians ought to be able to transport anything.  Up to and including things like ship parts and even missiles (properly packaged and not transferrable without a spaceport). 
If you wished, you should be able to run the entire production infrastructure via the private sector.  Even in today's world, private companies build military planes and weapons.  Maybe not nukes, and perhaps with not a little government subsidizing, but even weapons isn't strictly a government thing. 

Although, I would also argue that civilian freighters ought to use fuel as well.  Sorium might need to be massively more common and plentiful, but there really should not be special treatment for a non-government owned freighter.  Ship lines buy fuel from mining companies or the government. 

Heck, I'd be ok with "mercenary" ships looking for government kill/harass contracts if they cost fuel, maintenance and missiles just like normal.  I would play without "owning" any ships at all and simply posting contracts and colonize priorities if it was at all possible to do so.