Why can't I shoot

[Theodidactus (OP)]

fairly mission critical question here given there are ~80 vicious space aliens descending on my assault fleet as we speak. Why can't I target them.

They do not show up on any of my contacts list options for my fleet, including the missile cruiser that fired a salvo at them 10 minutes ago. I lose radar contact with them, re-establish it 2 minutes later, and now, it's like the combat overview screen doesn't see them at all.

They are being picked up on radar

They are within the range of the fire controls in question

One of those fire controls even fired on them 10 minutes ago

What's going on?

[Theodidactus (OP)]

I think it has something to do with range and resolution of my missile fire controls, they are a bit more distant, but not incredibly so. I guess I'll see what happens when they get closer...

[TheDeadlyShoe]

do they show up on any of the other fire controls?

[Theodidactus (OP)]

do they show up on any of the other fire controls?

Yes I diagnosed the problem and it's exactly what I anticipated. Ah well. This thread is now pointless.

[MarcAFK]

This is the kind of mechanic I would like ECM/ECCM to have, rather than just decreasing the range where you can target something you should still be able to (somewhat unreliably) pick up and/or engage things at distances just outside the current range where ECM leaves your fire controls. Also It should affect radar and EM passives.

[Theodidactus (OP)]

I think it'd be cool if ECMs created fake targets or increased the area where a spacecraft could conceivably be, and ECCMs countered that.

[MarcAFK]

Great idea, sensor ghosts, incorrect tonnage reports, incorrect speed or resolution data, etc .

[Griswel]

Rather than start a new thread, as I am having the same issue, I thought I'd post here.  Using Cruisers to shoot down missiles and detect enemies, DD to fire missiles, and now added fighters as my ships are old and slow.  The fighters close to within a few thousand km, it looks like under 10k, but the ship which is detected by others does not have the enemy in the target list.

Fighter+ class Cruiser    495 tons     10 Crew     158.6 BP      TCS 9.9  TH 200  EM 0
20202 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 2.4
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 99%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 17    5YR 259    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 16    

100 EP Magnetic Fusion Drive (2)    Power 100    Fuel Use 332.63%    Signature 100    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 80,000 Litres    Range 8.7 billion km   (5 days at full power)

Size 8 Box Launcher (2)    Missile Size 8    Hangar Reload 60 minutes    MF Reload 10 hours
Missile Fire Control FC37-R100 (1)     Range 37.8m km    Resolution 100
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 21,000 km/s   End: 109.9m    Range: 138.5m km   WH: 12    Size: 8    TH: 126/75/37

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

I did split the fighters from the main TG to send them hunting, does it matter that they're not in the same group?  The enemy's sensor is active, he should not be too tough to spot.

Now at about 25m km the enemy shows up on my Cruiser's list (it cannot fire)

Cruiser class Cruiser    15,000 tons     364 Crew     3304.2 BP      TCS 300  TH 1500  EM 0
5000 km/s     Armour 5-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/90/0/0     Damage Control Rating 10     PPV 36
Maint Life 2.89 Years     MSP 2377    AFR 180%    IFR 2.5%    1YR 420    5YR 6294    Max Repair 1050 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0    

100 EP Internal Fusion Drive (15)    Power 100    Fuel Use 66.5%    Signature 100    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,750,000 Litres    Range 31.6 billion km   (73 days at full power)

Gauss Cannon R3-100 (6x3)    Range 30,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (3)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0

Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (101)  Speed: 21,000 km/s   End: 109.9m    Range: 138.5m km   WH: 12    Size: 8    TH: 126/75/37

Active Search Sensor MR3-R1 (1)     GPS 63     Range 3.8m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR630-R100 (1)     GPS 105000     Range 630.0m km    Resolution 100
EM Detection Sensor EM15-90 (1)     Sensitivity 90     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  90m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

But not my DD

Destroyer class Destroyer    8,000 tons     203 Crew     1255.36 BP      TCS 160  TH 800  EM 0
5000 km/s     Armour 1-35     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 40
Maint Life 2.31 Years     MSP 294    AFR 170%    IFR 2.4%    1YR 75    5YR 1125    Max Repair 84 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 1    
Magazine 445    

100 EP Internal Fusion Drive (    Power 100    Fuel Use 66.5%    Signature 100    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,250,000 Litres    Range 42.3 billion km   (97 days at full power)

Size 8 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 80
Missile Fire Control FC151-R100 (1)     Range 151.2m km    Resolution 100
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (56)  Speed: 21,000 km/s   End: 109.9m    Range: 138.5m km   WH: 12    Size: 8    TH: 126/75/37

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Any help on why I cannot target would be appreciated.  I realize the designs are likely to be off, I'll get that as I play, I just need to be able to shoot the enemy.

EDIT - fortunately the enemy closed to 2.9m km and I could target and fire.  How much ECM is that?

[Paul M]

How big is the enemy ship you are trying to engage?  You have a resolution of 100 on your fire control.  If the target you are engaging has a Target Cross Section (TCS) of less than 100 you are not going to be able to engage it at maxium range.  If it also has ECM you will loose 50% of your engagement envelope more or less.

I would expect against a TCS 100+ target with ECM your fighters would engage at 18.9 m km.

Against smaller target the range is given by: max range* (TCS/100)^2

My best guess is that the target is relatively small or has a reduced sensor cross section due to the use of advanced cloaking systems.

[Griswel]

Thanks. 

Is it the same rules for fire control as for just sensors?  I don't need sensors on the fighters other than FC, I hope.  I swear my fighters were in the low 10k km range or even under 10k from the two enemy (one with active sensors, one without) and the things were not on the list.  I have double his speed 20kps/10kps and caught him quickly.  He blew one fighter up after a few clicks, and I sent the rest home to the CV.  Maybe I needed to hang out for a bit.  I did stay long enough to give the lists a chance to update.  That's why I was wondering if splitting the fighters off the TF was my problem.  The enemy was in my cruiser list, but not the fighters.

As for the size, I'll check the wrecks, but I have fought this class before and thought they were 7750 tons, a good sized ship.  In prior fights his ECM cut my missile targeting down from 130m to just under 100m iirc, but I have not been in a big hurry and it's a couple/few years later.  Still, 3m km from 130m, sheesh.  My ships are the same (fighters are new), his have had a while to progress. 

[Paul M]

Yes sensors and fire controls work on the same range - resolution formula.

As to what is going on it the battle I don't really know; a 7000+ tonne ship has a TCS over 100 and unless the aliens have cloaking technology I'd think you should engage them at 50% of your normal engagment range if their ECM is strong.  But it is possible that higher levels of ECM are possible. 

Your fighters can engage the target at 37.8 m km (ignoring ECM)
Your DDs can lock onto the target at 151.2 m km (ignoring ECM)
Your missiles have a range of 138.5 m km which defines the engagement range of your DDs
You active detect the target at 630 m km
Your passive detection is ...depending on the strength of the enemy sensor but realistically over the range you can active detect.

I don't understand why the fighters could not engage at some distance between 37 m and 19 m km, and your DDs should have been able to engage between 130 m km and 75 m km.  Not being able to engage until 3 m km sounds like you were using your resolution 1 array for active detection.

Look in your log file and see what it is saying.  It should tell you specifically which ships locked up the targets when.  It should also tell you when ships were detected with active sensors and so on.  Possibly that will give a better overview of what was going on.

[Griswel]

Thanks again.  The wrecks were 7750.  All active sensors were on (I used fleet order Active Sensors On before I transited a few months prior), my CV just re-used the cruiser sensor gear.  The outer blue circle is at 630m km or so.  The first report is active sensor detected, Strength2458 Resolution 91, then thermal signature detected strength 200 for both.  He blew up a fighter and popped out for a celebration.  When re-detected the reports were both TCS 20 and the active sensor read "S28/R91(existing)".  Then one enemy blew up good, and the other blew up real good.

So if 7000+ is normally 100, sounds like Alien Ike (a general at a desk) has been working up cloaking tech to get down to 20, while my ships have aged 9 years and I worked on other things.  I did not use the fighters after I got a TCS report, if that means anything, but I thought the active sensor was like a "we are here" beacon which even fighters should see.  Maybe I didn't wait long enough for the box to update, but once my fighters were being hit, I figured whatever was going to appear in the box would have appeared.

Thanks again for the answers.

[Hawkeye]

Hm, is the race you want to fight actually classed as hostile?

Targets classed as friendly don´t show on your target list and I don´t remember if neutrals do or don´t.

You can set them to hostile on the intelligence screen (CTRL-F5)

[Paul M]

TCS 20 means they have been working on cloaking technology.  7750 tonne ships have a TCS of 155 so they have substantially reduced their signiture.

max engagement range for your fighters (excluding ECM) now is:  37.8 m*(0.2)^2 = 1.5 m km and if they have ECM that could be as low as 75 000 km
max engagement range for your DDs (excluding ECM) now is 151.2 m*(0.2)^2 = 6.04 m km and if they have ECM then it could be as low as 3 m km

You report engagement at 3 m km so it looks like the mystery is solved.

I'd suggest making your next generation of fire controls with a resolution of 20.

Also note you detected them on your passive array before you acquired them on your active.  Your active would acquire them as targets at: 630 m*(0.2)^2 = 25 m km again a number you mentioned.

To me it now makes sense, but the question is does what I  have written above explain it to you or not?

[Paul M]

To be clear about detection, and engagment:

There are two kinds of detection: passive and active.  Your passive detection is when you get information on the enemies sensor or thermal emission.  You can not use the fact you have someone on your passives to target them.  Your active detection is when they cross into your detection envelope (which as you have discovered isn't always your detection range), at this point you get the TCS of the ship and some other information (what exactly I can't recall) but the main point is that you get the TCS so now you know if you are facing a fighter or a death star.  Active detection is a requirement for engagment.

Engagement is determined by first of all having an active detection of the target.  The next thing is the weapon range, you can't shoot at a target outside your weapons range for beam weapons.  I think you can fire a missile at a target outside the range of the missile so make sure that you consider your tactical situation carefully before firing missiles.  The last thing is the range of your fire control.  To engage the fire control must be able to localize the target (based on its range and resolution) at the current range.  If it cannot then you cannot fire on the target regardless of the fact that you have it on active sensors and it is within the range of your missiles.  This is, infact, the situation that you found yourself in.

You asked about sensors on your fighters.  My personal view is that any combat platform should be able to independently acquire, and localize any target it is intended to engage.  People do what you did and put all your sensor eggs in one basket only because min-maxing works in games where the stakes are non-existent and the enemy is predicatable and stupid.  There isn't a combat ship on this planet that doesn't have radar, radar detectors, and IR systems.  Sonar systems are semi-optional but most combat ships have some sort of sonar system.  In my view, yes your fighters (and Destroyers) should have an active sensor system onboard.  Otherwise if your carrier/cruiser is killed the rest of your ships and fighters would be mission killed, not to mention rendered utterly blind and shortly thereafter destroyed by the enemy.